Not sure if I'm misreading but I don't think the use or depiction of Barbie can be interpreted as racist, it's more to do with gender norms in Western society though and what people expect of boys and girls as they grow up and the attempt to instil that normality into them. Apologies if I've misread your post though.
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Golliwog dolls
- Thread starter Yrael
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Not sure if I'm misreading but I don't think the use or depiction of Barbie can be interpreted as racist, it's more to do with gender norms in Western society though and what people expect of boys and girls as they grow up and the attempt to instil that normality into them. Apologies if I've misread your post though.
I think this is one of those thing that is perceived differently when you apply a cultural lense. Like for example:
Barbie is, to me, a extremely blonde bimbo. She's pretty much a stereotypical white woman who cares about nothing but vanity and material gain. I think her 'racism' resonates with more children than golliwog ever could hope for.
The thing is that Barbie wasn't created with the intentions of mocking a race. She was created in the 50's to give children a glamorous doll to play with. Remember that was the time that the "Blonde Bombshell" icon was popular in Hollywood movies (Marilyn Monroe, Jayne Mansfield etc) Both blonde and brunette Barbie dolls have been available from the very start.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I think you'll find that Golliwogs are considered racist in a lot more countries than just the US.
Well, lets just say in one case, the humor is mostly harmless (if a bit tasteless in my opinion).
In the other case, the humor serves to put down a group that is already discriminated against and suffers the denial of equal rights and treatment, hate crimes, and psychological abuse.
You tell me which is the most "not ok".
Mocking the racial characteristics of Whites is ok in most situations, as there is no history of racial oppression, and as stated earlier there isn't even an agreed upon "caricature" of said race. Often people make fun of their mannerisms, speech and perhaps dancing. White Chicks gets brought up time and again, despite that being one of the incredibly rare examples of a racial group mocking whites by mimicking their physical traits. Whites are in a position of power and privilege in most western societies.
Mocking racial characteristics of blacks is definitely not ok due to the VAST history of being dehumanized for said characteristics. It is not the same because both races have not had the same history and relationship with one another.
This may be incredibly difficult for you to understand, but hopefully not impossible. Maybe it'll take you a few years.
A joke is a joke right?
If I told a joke about an aboriginal not having money to buy food how is that any different to a joke about a white person not being able to have athletic ability?
Both jokes are putting one race above another but you're telling me that one joke is racist and another isn't?
Nothing to do with past deeds or current positions. If we hold one standard as racist for one group of people and another for different group of people, well, that sounds racist to me
That's because you are speaking from a privileged position. When you choose to ignore history and connotations of certain actions, then you are being willfully ignorant.
And when someone who is black says they have no problem with a golliwog what do you say?
When an Italian says they have no problem being called a wog what do you say?
When a white Australian is called a skip and has no problem with it what do you say?
You could technically call both jokes racist, as they are both based around racial humor. However, that was not my point. The point is that one of those jokes goes beyond humor and translates into actual societal discrimination.
One person of a particular race does not speak for everyone of their race. Come on man...
Witchfinder General
punched Wheelchair Mike
As someone who is half Italian and Spanish I can tell you that you better also be of the same background if you call me a wog or else you'll get your teeth knocked down your throat.
Then you educate them about why the doll and these terms are considered racist by yourself and others. If they still don't want to listen/acknowledge then there is nothing you can do. You'll just consider that person as being "lost".
checkeredknight
Member
My Nan used to collect Gollie's. She would always save the labels off the Robinson's jam and send away for the pins and badges. She has a few of the dolls shown in the first post and lots and lots of the pins.
They're undeniably some kind of terrible racist character, but I'm pretty certain she never saw them as that. I remember us searching sites like eBay and Amazon back when my grandparents had TV Internet in the early 2000's, to see how much they were worth. The pins are collectors items now.
They're undeniably some kind of terrible racist character, but I'm pretty certain she never saw them as that. I remember us searching sites like eBay and Amazon back when my grandparents had TV Internet in the early 2000's, to see how much they were worth. The pins are collectors items now.
I would say that a very large number of other people of their race or group and a variety of other individuals from a variety of races say that it is not acceptable and we need to work to eliminate the offending issue. Its like when someone interviews a Native American who is ok with the Redskins name. Ok, that's one person. How many people are offended by it? The larger the number, the more reason there is for change. If a term is just generally accepted, like Cracker, which is a slur but not held in the same regard as the N word due to the history of said terms, well then it doesn't get treated the same.
Again, the Golliwog is racist and should not be sold. More than enough people take offense to it due to its history and connotation.
How does a golliwog doll do that?
The doll doesn't represent 'discriminated against and suffers the denial of equal rights and treatment, hate crimes, and psychological abuse'
So we're running with a 'vibe'
Who should I listen to regarding the golliwog doll, calling people wogs, calling people skips?
There are examples of caricatures of white people, of certain ethnic groups. White people are not one homogeneous group just like all people of Africa an descent are not one singular body.
I have posted examples of the treatment of the Irish, who have a history of been slaved out around Europe under the vikings (the genesis of dublin is as a slaving hub), through to the gross generalisations and dehumanising cartoons etc used to diminish and oppress the Irish at home and abroad. Culture attacked, forced to adopt a foreign language etc.
Does white chicks attack and make fun of the Irish, no! ...... Are there many examples of it in the media, definitely.
Just like some Dutch people who think calling a cream filled cholocate snack a "Nigger Kiss" isn't racist and part of their culture lol
The doll does represent discrimination. It is a racist caricature created by whites in a position of power to demean blacks by portraying them in an unflattering light.
America has a rich Irish history. If enough people become vocal about their depiction in everyday media, then we should change how they are depicted.
Which has resulted in what? Where are the irish now? Are they still being discriminated against? Are we busing Irish student to different schools? Are Irish people constantly depicted as thugs and criminals in media? What is their status now? If there is an issue, then few people are vocalizing it. If they do, and make a good case for it, then perhaps its time to change the depiction of Irish people. The treatment of blacks and the impact racism has had on them has been long lasting and continual and so far I don't see a compelling argument that the depiction of the Irish is in anyway on the same level as the depiction of blacks.
That's you. And I wonder why'd you'd resort to violence so easily
I'm married to an Italian, so have many Italian relatives. None of them care when I use the term wog. None.
Because I don't use it as a demeaning term.
If I called my Italian relatives 'a bunch of idiots' they wouldn't care. If I called them 'a bunch of wogs' they wouldn't care.
They would care if I was seriously bagging them out though. If I was degenerating them as people - that would be the problem. Not that they were Italians.
So if I called them 'a useless excuse for a human', they'd have the same reaction to 'a stupid wog'
Looking back though, don't you think the moronic stereotypes perpetuated by that society became so condensed that they began to buy into their own fabricated racism.
Get it? Barbie isn't supposed to be mocking any race but she does! Unrealistic body type with unnaturally blonde hair and totally smooth single tone skin. She is basically a caricature just as much as the golliwog is. Why is one, a friendly, happy-go-lucky dark skinned person considered the worst racist thing ever!! Where as the self absorbed, hedonistic light skin person considered totally normal and healthy social and psychological role model. Great for kids, buy now!!
I also want people to stop blurting out 'because racist'. I mean come on that is not argument enough you need to really address why it is that golliwog dolls are ze devil because so far all I'm hearing is
"Um!! They look like weird black people!! RACIST!!"
Not to all people.
And I'd hazard a guess the majority of the people that have a problem with it are American
In America, in modern times I agree.... It's more the odd and more casual thing on TV said in a half joked manner, Irish portrayed and reduced to stereotypes etc.
Then again the golliwog doll was not in America, in England as close as the 70's / early 80's it was still in some places no blacks, no dogs, no Irish.
Also does somebody have to have it the worst to be able to avail of outrage and protection from being reduced to a stereotype / caricature?
The majority of people wouldn't have a problem with it, because the majority of people who this is being marketed to are white. Its the minority who must fight against the majority who are oppressing them. N word was A-Ok not to long ago. Not so much now. And it was a minority of the population who had an issue with it. Its a racist doll.
Here's a good joke explaining the differential of the treatment of races
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M
It takes dedicated communication, vocal disapproval, protests, sometimes riots. It took blacks centuries to be in the position they are in now. So the question is, how bad is the stereotype/caricature and what are the ramifications? The issue with blacks pervades any predominantly white culture (the entire west) and their mistreatment has been continual and aggressive. Blacks had no where to hide, their skin color was a sign to anyone who wished to discriminate. So if you want to start a movement to improve Irish relations with the rest of the western world and to eliminate harmful caricatures, by all means do so.
The doll is not oppressing anyone and it never has.
Because some call it racist doesn't make it so.
You're better off fighting real racism, but that's hard, extremely hard to do because you're dealing with peoples thoughts, that one race is better than another.
Witchfinder General
punched Wheelchair Mike
They view you as part of the family and thus know the word has no malice behind it when you say it but the base meaning of the word is to vilify a particular group of people. Words like "idiot" can be harmful but the meaning is agnostic as it doesn't pertain to one type of person or another. If I put you down because you act dumb then you can get smarter. If I put you down because of where your family are from or what colour your skin is or what your sexual orientation is you can't change that aspect of yourself.
One way or another you should refrain from being offensive and act like a decent human being.
The dehumanizing depiction of a race is harmful and oppressive. Its a constant reminder, a message about how the predominant, privileged race sees minorities. Their steadfast, stubborn refusal to banish the racist toy says much about race relations.
It is racist. Blatantly so.
No, they understand that the word 'wog' is just a word and that it has meaning depending on the context. Same as any word
The bolded I agree with whole heartedly
I agree with the bolded. But I don't agree that the doll does this
But a huge number of people do. The minstrel outfit and cherry red lips was an insensitive, dehumanizing depiction of blacks and this doll embodies that racist caricature. Its straight from an era where blacks were not seen as equal to whites and were heavily oppressed. The steadfast refusal to ban the doll is a message from the predominant race that their feelings are not important in this matter. It is a show of power. It is racist. The doll is clearly racist.
Who?
Seems that Americans think it's offensive. Who else is saying the golliwog doll isn't on?
And what are you're thoughts on the below? Is America the greatest land on the earth? Seems racist to me to put one race above another
Who?
Seems that Americans think it's offensive. Who else is saying the golliwog doll isn't on?
And what are you're thoughts on the below? Is America the greatest land on the earth? Seems racist to me to put one race above another
![url])](http://([url]http://i.imgur.com/0tq5nTN.png[/url]))
Many people from many nations believe the golliwog doll is racist, particularly people from african descent. This is not a US only thing. There is a reason why the dolls are no longer prevalent and it was a surprise that its still sold in Australia.
Also, about the other link. It is incredibly unrelated. First, America is a country, not a race and the discussion is about the relative achievements of said country with a debate arguing for its consideration as the "greatest" nation and arguments against. So why you would link that is baffling.
It certainly isn't only Americans who take issue with the racist caricature (I am not American, and I think they're awful). One of the articles I linked in the first post reports the reaction of elders of the Queensland indigeneous community being largely negative:
Im a black Australian and I find these dolls to be racist.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
And there you have it. Look I am going to say it golliwag deniers denying the racism of those dolls is at this point basically offensive in and of itself. You have miultiple people of African descent from various places around the world saying "I think those dolls are racist" there really is no logical way to argue against that except to be in blatant denial of what those people are saying is true. Its up there with this statement
in tone deafness and absuridity to the reality of what historically those dolls really symbolize and mean.
HarryHengst
Member
Yes, because of the power difference. Just like poor people making fun of rich people is ok, but rich people making fun of poor people is tasteless.
This will be my last post on the topic
If I have offended anyone with my posts then I sincerely apologise, I didn't mean to do that.
I understand how some find the dolls offensive and I understand how some don't
Different people find different things offensive.
If society thinks the dolls are offensive then I guess they shouldn't be sold
If I have offended anyone with my posts then I sincerely apologise, I didn't mean to do that.
I understand how some find the dolls offensive and I understand how some don't
Different people find different things offensive.
If society thinks the dolls are offensive then I guess they shouldn't be sold
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