• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hi Guest. We've rebooted and consolidated our Communities section, so be sure to check it out and subscribe to some threads. Thanks!

Clickbait Google Stadia will be “faster and more responsive” than local gaming hardware

Shifty

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2015
7,627
6,451
735
the planet Thra
Next you're gonna tell me Stadia runs games in a state of quantum superposition and leverages the wave-function collapse caused by observation to ensure the next frame has already been simulated and rendered by the time the player presses a button.

F U C K
O F F F

Though that does get me thinking- it wouldn't be impossible to invent a system whereby a game's current state could be forked into several different potential 'futures' (based on the possible set of next player inputs) that are run as separate simulations and then collapsed down into one 'correct' one when the actual player input arrives, kind of like rollback netcode. It'd be pretty damn CPU-intensive though, particularly for games that have a lot of potential 'next player inputs' on any given frame.

And that still wouldn't validate the claim of 'better than local no matter the hardware', because you'd still be wasting part of the potential gains on streaming lag. Even if zero-latency computing and networking was a thing, their tech would only ever be able to match local hardware doing the same stuff, not exceed it.

Now, if they were to invent time travel...
 
Last edited:

cyber69

Member
Sep 21, 2018
409
355
280
While many people are laughing at this. I’m more interested in how they’re implementing machine learning to mitigate latency. Predictive button presses maybe naked to human perception. This is all very interesting and I look forward to seeing their execution of this.
 

Vawn

Member
Feb 20, 2018
3,636
6,355
465
I don't think many read HOW they plan to achieve this.

Yes, it is possible. No,no one should want this.

For those who only read title, they plan to achieve this by guessing what you'll do next and just do it for you and ignore what you actually do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Väinömäinen

jshackles

Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
Jul 2, 2013
13,698
5,368
1,120
Oregon
I don't think many read HOW they plan to achieve this.

Yes, it is possible. No,no one should want this.

For those who only read title, they plan to achieve this by guessing what you'll do next and just do it for you and ignore what you actually do.
So basically

 

joe_zazen

Member
May 2, 2017
1,877
1,682
420
Next you're gonna tell me Stadia runs games in a state of quantum superposition and leverages the wave-function collapse caused by observation to ensure the next frame has already been simulated and rendered by the time the player presses a button.

F U C K
O F F F

Though that does get me thinking- it wouldn't be impossible to invent a system whereby a game's current state could be forked into several different potential 'futures' (based on the possible set of next player inputs) that are run as separate simulations and then collapsed down into one 'correct' one when the actual player input arrives, kind of like rollback netcode. It'd be pretty damn CPU-intensive though, particularly for games that have a lot of potential 'next player inputs' on any given frame.

And that still wouldn't validate the claim of 'better than local no matter the hardware', because you'd still be wasting part of the potential gains on streaming lag. Even if zero-latency computing and networking was a thing, their tech would only ever be able to match local hardware doing the same stuff, not exceed it.

Now, if they were to invent time travel...
is there a reason a sufficiently powerful ai computer couldn't predict exactly what you will do before you do it? I mean it would turn gaming into an exercise in existential dread, but it would be super ‘responsive’.

one of the quotes from Google founder and CIA operative was ‘ we want you to be able to type in ‘what college should i go to’ and give you the correct answer.’ Google is creepy AF.
 

RedVIper

Member
Jun 13, 2017
1,664
2,007
420
I don't think many read HOW they plan to achieve this.

Yes, it is possible. No,no one should want this.

For those who only read title, they plan to achieve this by guessing what you'll do next and just do it for you and ignore what you actually do.
So I want to press Circle, but google figures I want to press R1 instead and I end up getting bitchslaped by Ludwig.

Yeah that's definitely more responsive.
 

Shifty

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2015
7,627
6,451
735
the planet Thra
is there a reason a sufficiently powerful ai computer couldn't predict exactly what you will do before you do it? I mean it would turn gaming into an exercise in existential dread, but it would be super ‘responsive’.

one of the quotes from Google founder and CIA operative was ‘ we want you to be able to type in ‘what college should i go to’ and give you the correct answer.’ Google is creepy AF.
Hmm, I guess that depends on how much information such an AI would have available to it. If it had to go purely off your gamepad inputs then I think there would be sufficient margin of error to render it imperfect- like a sudden muscle spasm or IRL projectile causing you to mis-input or drop the controller.

If we're talking full omnipresent papa-google-is-watching kind of AI with effectively infinite computing power and a working model of our physical reality? My probability theory is too weak to say for sure, but it seems plausible. Though it would still only be able to match the local equivalent rather than exceed it, since the results would effectively be identical at that point.

And that is of course purely theoretical- I don't think the goog is gonna be pulling off anything like this within the couple-of-years-ish timespan mentioned in the article, or even within our lifetimes unless someone finds a way to bringe Moore's law back from the dead.
 
  • Like
Reactions: joe_zazen

Silvawuff

Member
Mar 9, 2012
2,280
168
550
Remember the Nokia Ngage and how it was a visible train wreck well before it launched? Totally getting the same vibes here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Griffon

Bryank75

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,285
2,618
570
Ireland
60% of the time, it works every time.

It really reminds me of 'Sex Panther' cologne.... 'it's made of real bits of panther, so you know it's good' but it actually smells like a 'used diaper or bigfoots dick.'
 

KorbinDallas

Neo Member
Oct 8, 2019
97
66
125
If the machine learning works so well, can I get that to anticipate my termination of Skype prog by chance?
 

shoegaze

Neo Member
May 3, 2018
38
34
130
ITT: a bunch of people thinking they're more than uniquely specialised slow computer. It's not like they need to emulate the whole human brain. Just button presses in a game where all calculations and physics are known natively. It's a piece of piss for machine learning if it's always on and tracking.

Your reaction time, your decision bias, your playtime fatigue, your performance at different times of the day, multipliers on how high you are from the first couple of combos. Even patience and the consequences on your playstyle while agitated - maybe even automatic difficulty adjustment for you to keep playing instead of quitting. It doesn't need to be perfect for us not to notice instances of auto-play. You're underestimating machine learning and overestimating these lower tier species that are us.

Bring on the future I say.
 
Last edited:
  • Triggered
Reactions: joe_zazen

Spukc

Member
Jan 24, 2015
10,273
6,090
600
Data caps, data caps, data caps.

None of this is viable until ISP data caps are universally eliminated.
Sorry but this is def a non issue in many countries.

If that shit bothers you complain to your ISP.
Don't withhold the future to people that can.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Samsomite

serialcarpens

Member
Dec 15, 2013
205
9
320
Sorry but this is def a non issue in many countries.
:messenger_tears_of_joy: Except the USA, where internet infrastructure is way behind the rest of the world, and datacaps exist with almost every ISP.
And laws intended to try to help prevent ISPs from doing whatever they want have been rolled back, meaning that it's not going to get any better any time soon.

But I guess if Stadia's success is somehow only tied to Europe, then I guess you have a point... ?
 

Spukc

Member
Jan 24, 2015
10,273
6,090
600
:messenger_tears_of_joy: Except the USA, where internet infrastructure is way behind the rest of the world, and datacaps exist with almost every ISP.
And laws intended to try to help prevent ISPs from doing whatever they want have been rolled back, meaning that it's not going to get any better any time soon.

But I guess if Stadia's success is somehow only tied to Europe, then I guess you have a point... ?
Netflix and spotify are still a thing.
Give it time.
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
536
564
335
ITT: a bunch of people thinking they're more than uniquely specialised slow computer. It's not like they need to emulate the whole human brain. Just button presses in a game where all calculations and physics are known natively. It's a piece of piss for machine learning if it's always on and tracking.

Your reaction time, your decision bias, your playtime fatigue, your performance at different times of the day, multipliers on how high you are from the first couple of combos. Even patience and the consequences on your playstyle while agitated - maybe even automatic difficulty adjustment for you to keep playing instead of quitting. It doesn't need to be perfect for us not to notice instances of auto-play. You're underestimating machine learning and overestimating these lower tier species that are us.

Bring on the future I say.
So how is the machine learning going to know that all of a sudden I want to go off the beaten path?
 
  • Like
Reactions: mckmas8808

Grinchy

Member
Aug 3, 2010
21,992
4,904
1,025
In a cave outside of Whooville.
Also, even if we pretend that it's a good thing to have an AI putting in button presses for us, what would stop Sony and MS from doing the same thing on local hardware? Why would this only be possible because of the fact that the service is streaming the games?
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: mckmas8808

jshackles

Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
Jul 2, 2013
13,698
5,368
1,120
Oregon
:messenger_tears_of_joy: Except the USA, where internet infrastructure is way behind the rest of the world, and datacaps exist with almost every ISP.
And laws intended to try to help prevent ISPs from doing whatever they want have been rolled back, meaning that it's not going to get any better any time soon.

But I guess if Stadia's success is somehow only tied to Europe, then I guess you have a point... ?
Give it a few years, when VLEO sat services give traditional telecoms fair competition.
 

serialcarpens

Member
Dec 15, 2013
205
9
320
Netflix and spotify are still a thing.
Give it time.
Quoting from an article:
"Using Stadia at 4K for 65 hours would use up to a terabyte of data. This means users with Comcast or AT&T could only play for about two hours per day during the month before reaching their data cap. "

So either people are going to have to limit their play time, play at the lowest quality settings, or wait for ISPs to decide to increase their datacaps, which they have no incentive to do.

Unfortunately, ISPs in the USA have gotten worse over time, not better.
 

GrayFoxPL

Member
Mar 26, 2007
19,715
379
1,200
Poland
Specifically Bakar notes Google’s “negative latency” will act as a workaround for any potential lag between player and server. This term describes a buffer of predicted latency, inherent to a Stadia players setup or connection, in which the Stadia system will run lag mitigation. This can include increasing fps rapidly to reduce latency between player input and display, or even predictive button presses.

Yes, you heard that correctly. Stadia might start predicting what action, button, or movement you’re likely to do next and do it for you – which sounds rather frightening.
Players every time Stadia makes a bad prediction:




But seriously, this time and reality bending technology seems like it's just basic rollback netcode.

If not then dunno, maybe Google Naruto runners actually breachd Area 51 and stole that alien tech.
 

shoegaze

Neo Member
May 3, 2018
38
34
130
So how is the machine learning going to know that all of a sudden I want to go off the beaten path?
I don't think auto-play would work for extended periods of time, only parts of a second to a second intervals in the midst of a ping spike and active playing i.e active button mashing in combat, which is most of the time unconscious learned reaction patterns. Off the cuff reactions couldn't be predicted because that would require simulation of all of your brain which at this point in time is not possible if it will ever be.
 
  • Like
Reactions: molasar

Jtibh

Neo Member
Sep 19, 2019
36
27
105
Uuuhhhhhhhhh bla bla bla bla......blablabla.
What the fuck will you play now that doom got delayed huh?
 

mckmas8808

Member
May 24, 2005
42,074
4,792
1,630
Obviously this is PR bullshit through and through.

BUT

The way Stadia's servers are designed to scale up means that developers won't get locked into the same "generational" development cycles that we've seen in the past with console gaming. Whether or not developers choose to utilize the extra, continuously improving resources that they are given is another story. Google definitely has a uphill battle ahead if they think that developers will optimize their games for Stadia rather than just having a separate build branch that has parity with traditional console releases - most developers / publishers don't even bother putting additional effort into making their games run better on PC these days.

If in "one or two years" Google is moneyhatting developers to make Stadia exclusive games, then I'll give this statement a "maybe".
Devs will NEVER be able to utilize the continuous improving resources because it takes too many years to make a game. And you'll still have to support it on consoles and PC first.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jshackles

cireza

Member
Jun 1, 2014
4,745
1,435
560
If a program is pressing buttons in our place, this is not a response. A response is something that happens after an initial action, which is not the case here.

How dumb can this be ? I wonder. Can't wait to see the game doing stuff that players did not do, or see games guessing the next input in a fighting game. Might as well watch a playthrough.
 
Last edited:

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
5,449
4,333
735
Devs will NEVER be able to utilize the continuous improving resources because it takes too many years to make a game. And you'll still have to support it on consoles and PC first.
My read of his post and yours say you are both in agreement. I think his message was if Google pays for all development costs the devs will utilize the benefit, but otherwise forget it.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Mar 23, 2018
2,276
1,762
540
well if you make a game as a movie and say 5 seconds in advance press x to make the jump to see the next cutscene which it recognizes as already pressed basically uncharted 8. they could be right.
 
Last edited:
  • Triggered
Reactions: Spukc

CagedChicken

Neo Member
Jul 23, 2018
35
19
120
Next you're gonna tell me Stadia runs games in a state of quantum superposition and leverages the wave-function collapse caused by observation to ensure the next frame has already been simulated and rendered by the time the player presses a button.

F U C K
O F F F

Though that does get me thinking- it wouldn't be impossible to invent a system whereby a game's current state could be forked into several different potential 'futures' (based on the possible set of next player inputs) that are run as separate simulations and then collapsed down into one 'correct' one when the actual player input arrives, kind of like rollback netcode. It'd be pretty damn CPU-intensive though, particularly for games that have a lot of potential 'next player inputs' on any given frame.

And that still wouldn't validate the claim of 'better than local no matter the hardware', because you'd still be wasting part of the potential gains on streaming lag. Even if zero-latency computing and networking was a thing, their tech would only ever be able to match local hardware doing the same stuff, not exceed it.

Now, if they were to invent time travel...
Yeah, the "regardless of the hardware" bit is kinda BS, since whatever software they are running to do the "magic" could also be running on the same hardware in your living room, so putting the hardware out on the internet can't really be faster. That said, I just came across this white paper from MS that describes research they did on predicting inputs, rendering multiple "likely next frames" and so on, and it does sound like this can get you to a pretty good state where things don't feel as laggy as you would expect.