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Grantland's Tom Bissell writes to Niko Bellic about GTA V

So, video game writer/advocate Tom Bissell wrote a very long "letter" to Niko. In it, he talks briefly about his personal experiences while playing GTA IV, and the how the way his life has gone since then might have shaped his perception of V. I tried bolding some of the parts I thought were interesting/important. Lock/mock if old.

Dear Niko,

Last week, the latest installment of the Grand Theft Auto series was released. It made a billion dollars — the GDP of Mongolia — in 72 hours. I'd love to know how that makes you, the protagonist of the last full Grand Theft Auto game, feel. Threatened? Possibly a little relieved? To be honest, I'm not sure how it makes me feel. Last night I finished GTA V after playing it at least eight hours a day for four days straight, and this morning my sciatica is radioactive and my eyes feel as though they've had sea salt thrown into them.

When GTA IV came out in 2008, I was in a bad place, as you know. I was on the run from my country, my relationships, my work, and my responsibilities. I chose to live in a series of cities well-suited to making large sums of my money disappear into various nocturnal rat holes. Like you, Niko, I did things I'm not proud of and treated several people in ways I regret. During that time, which I've written about elsewhere, GTA IV was both salve and irritant. I became convinced the game had something to tell me about my compulsions and self-destructiveness. Correction: It told me something about those things. You and I spent dozens of hours together while I hiked back from a netherland of personal desperation. Niko, I can honestly say I loved — and love — you. I loved you, I think, because I knew who you were: the charming but scarily hair-trigger cousin of every translator I ever had while traveling in the former Soviet Union.

Goddamnit, I tried to treat you right. I hope you know that. While playing GTA IV, I wasn't enacting any cops-and-robber fantasies. Instead, I played the game in ways that honored the version of you that your creators clearly intended. When you were with me, you didn't go on nutcase rampages (at least in the games whose progress I saved). You didn't randomly assassinate cops or plow over pedestrians if you could help it. The game claimed you were tortured and ambivalent, and, in my game, you were. That has to mean something.

A lot of things have changed for me since you and I met. I'm much happier, for one thing. I'm almost 40, incredibly. I've been with someone I adore for four and a half years. My relationship to video games, too, has shifted. Over the last few days, whenever I wasn't playing GTA V, I was driving back and forth from a motion-capture soundstage in Los Angeles, where we were shooting scenes in a video game I'm writing. Several days of Sensurround enclosure by video games — I assure you, Niko, that this only sounds like fun.

These days, I appreciate games a lot more and play them a lot less. I also pay attention to different things. When I worked my way through the earlier Grand Theft Autos, I marveled at the freedom they allowed and the astonishing vastidity of their worlds. When I played GTA V, I mostly wondered how the traffic flowed so convincingly. The more technically mindful of video games I've become, the more conscious I am of their innumerable moving parts, the more miraculous and impressive they seem — and the more impossible it feels to vanish inside one.

Almost everyone I know who loves video games — myself included — is broken in some fundamental way. With their ceaseless activity and risk-reward compulsion loops, games also soothe broken people. This is not a criticism. Fanatical readers tend to be broken people. The type of person who goes to see four movies a week alone is a broken person. Any medium that allows someone to spend monastic amounts of time by him- or herself, wandering the gloaming of imagination and reality, is doomed to be adored by lost, lonely people. But let's be honest: Spending the weekend in bed reading the collected works of Joan Didion is doing different things to your mind than spending the weekend on the couch racing cars around Los Santos. Again, not a criticism. The human mind contains enough room for both types of experience. Unfortunately, the mental activity generated by playing games is not much valued by non-gamers; in fact, play is hardly ever valued within American culture, unless it involves a $13 million signing bonus. Solitary play can feel especially shameful, and we gamers have internalized that vaguely masturbatory shame, even those of us who've decided that solitary play can be profoundly meaningful. Niko, I've thought about this a lot, and internalized residual shame is the best explanation I have to account for the cesspool of negativity that sits stagnating at the center of video-game culture, which right now seems worse than it's ever been.

I don't think playing video games makes people more violent. You of all people should know that. I do, however, believe playing video games turns people into bigger assholes than they would otherwise feel comfortable being. Games are founded upon competition and confrontation. It's probably no coincidence, then, that a large and extremely vocal part of the video-game audience responds to arguments with which it disagrees by lashing out. One reviewer of GTA V, Carolyn Petit of GameSpot, said the game was "politically muddled and profoundly misogynistic," which is very much a defensible position. Petit also made it clear she loved GTA V. Twenty thousand irate comments piled up beneath her review, many of them violent and hateful. Is this reasonable behavior? Sure, if you've come to regard anything that stands in perceived opposition to you as in dire need of eradication. What is that if not video-game logic in its purest, most distilled form?

I review books too. Do you know that? No reader has ever told me he hopes I get cancer in response to a negative book review, which I've had happen with games. I've never met a literary critic who distrusts publishers as much as game critics distrust game developers. I've never met a smart reader who sneers at books as reflexively as many smart gamers reflexively sneer at games. Many people involved in this medium hate so much of it and one another. We're living with the emotional consequences of all this suspicion and rage. The games we're playing are the fruit of a poison tree.

Rockstar, the developer of Grand Theft Auto, understands all this. It always has. By all evidence, it, too, hates gamers and gamer culture, even as that culture, and those gamers, have set the company afloat upon an endless river of dinero. The GTA games are flaming cataracts of contempt. The vision they peddle of men, women, minorities, American culture, and video games is apocalyptic, vicious, and often highly unpleasant. I've never really minded that, if only because watching talented people sweep out the dark corners of their imaginations is far more interesting than watching the handle of a moral puritan's butter churn pump up and down. A lot of game critics are currently wringing their hands over GTA V's portrayal of women and its employment of various racial stereotypes. I confess that when it came time to take the paparazzo photo of a starlet's genitals, when I'd heard my 500th N-word, when I played the touch-a-stripper mini game, I, too, was feeling more than a little wearied by the familiarly "outrageous" elements of the game. But we've been doing, seeing, and hearing this stuff (and worse) in GTA games for more than a decade. Niko, wouldn't you agree that the GTA games want and actively seek out the contempt of high-minded game critics? I'm not sure what anyone was expecting: GTA is basically the most elaborate asshole simulation system ever devised, a game based on hurting people and doing whatever you like. At the same time, though, I understand the basic sense of fatigue with which people are approaching it. Once upon a time, playing a GTA game was like sitting next to your offensive Republican uncle at Christmas dinner. He was definitely a dick but also smart and interesting, and his heart was fundamentally in the right place. These days Uncle GTA is a billionaire with an unchanged shtick, and he seems a hell of a lot more mean-spirited than before.

GTA V presents the player with a huge, open world — a kind of thalidomide Los Angeles — in which you drive, shoot, run, kill, fly, swim, and checkpoint. But you know what the game is like. I mean, you lived it. You don't need me to tell you what the game is like. You do maybe need me to make a case as to how fundamentally weird this franchise is. GTA V is both the dictionary definition of a mainstream video game and an uncompromising experiment in player patience. The Call of Duty games have become money-printing machines by identifying precisely the exact shape, sound, and feel of a compulsive, fun core loop of gameplay, which they provide with relentless professionalism. Call of Duty is fine-tuned and timed so that it's never not that fun core loop. The GTA games, conversely, despite their mayhem, can be highly tedious, with nothing in particular happening over long periods of time. One mission in GTA V involves driving your family to therapy. In another, you mop a floor. What other game allows you to screw up while mopping? What other game even has mopping? There is no game franchise — and certainly no franchise of its commercial ambition — that's willing to be this mundane this often. In GTA, the fun core loops of gameplay aren't laid at the gamer's feet. You have to find and create them yourself. There's much to admire about that, and you'll be glad to know, Niko, that making your way around the world of GTA V is as anarchic and enjoyable as ever.

The story of GTA V involves three characters, among whom you can swap throughout the game: Michael, an aging stick-up heister from the American Midwest; Trevor, an oddly compelling meth-cooking psychopath; and Franklin, an ambitious repo man slowly working his way up in the world. In other words, GTA V has tried to mash Heat, Breaking Bad, and Boyz n the Hood into a single story, which works about as well as you'd think. Michael and Franklin — the sensitive, reluctant, but ultimately ruthless criminals — are the embodiment of every GTA game's narrative ambition: real characters, struggling with real problems. Trevor — the funny but ultimately terrifying lunatic — is the embodiment of what the game actually is: an experience uncomfortably pinned between grand narrative ambition and open-world incontinent madness.

I don't know if you're aware of this, Niko, but the job of a video-game writer often boils down to figuring out ways to fictionally justify the fictionally unjustifiable. Please understand that I've come to accept that a "good story," at least in the traditional sense of that phrase, is impossible within the frame most games give themselves. In open-world games, especially, story is a result of design — a way to get the player out and about and interacting with the world. Rockstar has never been very successful at accounting for why its open-world antiheroes are doing whatever they happen to be doing, but making dramatic plausibility the measure of an open-world video game is a sure path to bewilderment. Even so, many aspects of GTA V's story seem perilously undercooked. The manner in which Michael and Franklin first meet, for instance, makes considerably less than no sense, and Trevor's intentions toward Michael seem to change from scene to scene. My friend Mitch flew down from San Francisco to play through the game with me, and when we hit the 30-hour mark, Mitch turned to me and asked a very simple question: "What the hell is this game about?" I didn't know. I still don't know. The game has more themes, motifs, characters, and events than it knows what to do with, but what GTA V mainly seems to be about is one damn thing after another.

Rockstar tried to play your story relatively straight, Niko, just as it did with John Marston, the hero of Red Dead Redemption, which increasingly seems like Rockstar's best game to date. I suspect the creative leads at Rockstar came to realize that a game designed around speed, theft, and murder doesn't lend itself so well to seriousness. One of the reasons Red Dead feels so comparatively meditative, I think, is that you ride around on a horse. So it wouldn't surprise me if you looked upon certain parts of GTA V as a tonal betrayal of your legacy, such as when Franklin discovers he can communicate telepathically with a dog, or the running gag in which Trevor is compelled into a homicidal rage whenever people notice his Canadian accent, or the recurring encounters with a smooth-talking marijuana-legalization enthusiast, or the mission that commences with this on-scene text: NEUTRALIZE 20 HIPSTERS.

GTA is a game that demands you do meaningless, inexplicably stupid things to progress. I found meaning in your story, Niko, but that was in spite of the game that surrounded it. By my lights, the most effective part of GTA V was its indelibly disturbing interactive torture sequence, which nearly made me physically ill. Now, I'm an anti-torture absolutist, so it's nice to see a video game use torture in a way that underscores the victim's pitiful helplessness, plainly acknowledges the barbarity of any human being willing to torture, and results in information that is strongly insinuated to be completely worthless.

I'm a little worried this sounds ambivalent, Niko. Look, I have a full Xbox Live friends list, 100 people strong, and last night 25 percent of them were playing GTA V — something I've never seen before. The texts and messages started flying: So, what do you think? How far are you? Very few of my friends had good words to say about GTA V, even as the game's Metacritic score holds firm at a mind-boggling 97. Then I got a text message from a game-dev friend who happens to be one of the smartest, most aesthetically sophisticated people I've ever met in games. He wasn't enjoying the game, and he seemed puzzled by that. We texted for a while. Then he sent this: "I guess I'm mourning the admittance that I'm no longer the target audience of my own work."

One of GTA V's characters admits at the end of the game, "I'm getting too old for this nonsense." And you know what? I felt the same thing numerous times while playing GTA V, even though I continue to admire the hell out of much of what it accomplishes. So if I sound ambivalent, Niko, I think it's because I'm part of a generation of gamers who just realized we're no longer the intended audience of modern gaming's most iconic franchise. Three steps past that realization, of course, is anticipation of one's private, desperate hurtle into galactic heat death. I'm left wondering when I, or any of us, express a wish for GTA to grow up, what are we actually saying? What would it even mean for something like GTA to "grow up"? Our most satirically daring, adult-themed game is also our most defiantly puerile game. Maybe the biggest sin of the GTA games is the cheerful, spiteful way they rub our faces in what video games make us willing to do, in what video games are.

Playing GTA used to feel like sneaking out behind school for a quick, illicit smoke. The smoke still tastes good, Niko; the nicotine still nicely javelins into your system. But when you look up, you have to wonder what you're actually doing here. Everyone is so young, way younger than you, with the notable exception of the guy handing out the cigarettes, and he's smiling like he just made a billion dollars.

Your friend always,

Tom
 

ShowDog

Member
I haven't played GTA V yet, despite 3 and VC being two of my favorite games ever, but I have to say that was a very well written piece. And I have a sinking feeling that the last paragraph or two accurately describe why I haven't played GTA V yet, and why I don't plan on it any time soon. Coming home from work, giving my wife a kiss and taking over the TV to play GTA V for a cumulative 40 some hours sounds absurd to me. I'm old.
 

Dance Inferno

Unconfirmed Member
I haven't played GTA V yet because I didn't really enjoy SA or IV. This article perfectly describes why I didn't enjoy those games - the plot is so thinly held together that there is barely any justification for asking me to go out and murder/steal/hurt. When I was younger I enjoyed GTA 3 and VC because I wasn't looking for a grown up experience, but now I expect more out of my games, and merely having a large world to explore isn't enough to get my juices flowing.

In any case, this is another excellent article from Tom Bissell. Well worth a read.
 
Very nice read. I agree very much, though I'm not finished with the main campaign, I find that I'm just not interested and now only want to return to the game to play with friends when GTA Online kicks in. At least, there, I can just focus on the gameplay and not be subjected to so much aimless and violent nothingness. Also agree with his feeling that that RDR is Rockstar's best game to date. Maybe I'm also too old, at 40, to be into this shit.

Did you copy/paste the entire article? Eh...
 

AkuMifune

Banned
Hmm. A great read, but I can't identify with his sentiment at all, and I'm probably older than he is.

While IV did provide a gravity I appreciated, I don't need my games to reflect the same level of morality or meaning that I do in everyday life. It's a fantasy that I welcome as a respite from the monotonous grind. And I fucking love it to death more than any GTA or maybe even game before it, because it revels in it's fantasy while still treating the main storyline and its characters with a huge amount of respect, even while the tertiary activities and window dressing become more juvenile. There's more than just what's on the surface.

It's like Trevor. At face value a psychotic sociopathic scumbag who represents the ultimate GTA character. But underneath he understands what love is more than any of the other characters in the game. He understands sacrifice and loyalty and at times, even more humanity than I was ever expecting, even in the scene everyone loves to hate on. Don't take him or the game at face value or you're doing yourself a huge disservice.
 

Marleyman

Banned
I am probably around this guys age and I disagree with pretty much everything he says. Niko is still my favorite protagonist(Trevor a close second)
 
The more I play 5, the more I realize how much I hate Niko as a character.

"I'm trying to be a good guy!"

---Niko, we need you to kill these 50 guys for a couple grand

"okay"
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
This is very well written and gives a lot to think about, though at first glance I think the author is expecting a bit more out of GTA than what GTA actually is, or is supposed to be.

Having said that, I do appreciate the spirit of it. I think GTA is a bit too one-note for its own good, and that clashes with the increasingly fleshed out, realistic worlds the games are set in. They're so ruthlessly, obsessively cynical in their satire that it becomes tiring after a while.

But there may be merit to GTA as reflecting darkly the audience and times it is made for. I'm not so sure Rockstar has simple contempt for its audience because the guys making GTA are mostly made up of the same audience. That may make its nihilistic social commentary even grimmer.
 

jett

D-Member
Eh, interesting read, but it's yet another GTA5 article that only focuses on themes and other nonsense instead of actual game mechanics. Like he said, there are so many themes and ideas crammed into the plot and characters of the game that frankly, personally, it all ends up feeling highly superficial. I don't really think it's something worth of research and deep discussion. For me, GTA5 is a comedy and there's not much more to it than that.

Skipped past it in case of spoilers.
Are there any? Really sick of having my experiences RUINED here.

He quotes a line of dialogue from the ending.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Definitely a thought provoking piece. I particularly liked his exploration of the idea of the 'hardcore gamer' being, at some level, fundamentally "broken." I've never thought about it that way before, but for some reason it does seem at least to have a slight ring of truth to it somewhere. I hesitate to generalize all of anything, and I know there are probably plenty of exceptions, but I wonder if there would not be a significant statistical occurrence of mental disorders, abuse, etc.
 

Squire

Banned
This is great.

Mitch is spot on, too. I'm about halfway through myself and GTA V isn't about anything. You can ask me for a theme or a thesis statement, but I have no fucking clue what that would be.

It's kind of ironic because as gorgeous as the world they've built is, the only thing the game seems to say (and it stays on repeat) is that life in California/America/wherever is completely shitty and so are the people living it.

Yeah, Rockstar. I heard you. The first time and the millionth.
 
This is great.

Mitch is spot on, too. I'm about halfway through myself and GTA V isn't about anything. You can ask me for a theme or a thesis statement, but I have no fuvking clue what that would be.

It's actually about the most important thing a video game can be about, which is fun. And that's something Rockstar forgot when they were making GTAIV.
 

a.wd

Member
Wow really great and touching article. (I had a bunch of other things written down that this article made me want to articulate, but I might just do it over on the original article)

Also isn't posting the entire article against the TOS?
 

Squire

Banned
It's actually about the most important thing a video game can be about, which is fun. And that's something Rockstar forgot when they were making GTAIV.

I don't think so. I think R* wants it to be more and meaningful and I think they missed the mark. The satire is far too obvious and tires very quickly and the protagonists are (or are almost) completely unsympathetic. Every character in that world is.

I always thought RDR had a great story and playing GTA V is helping me understand why even more. It's a story about a broken individual who recognizes he's that way and - as misguided as it is - he makes a concerted effort to change and he can't.

It's just as cynical as GTA V, but the message is so much more clear.

And I have nothing against the game. I think it's good, but I think there are narrative things that they reached for and they came up short. I'm not done though, as stated.
 

Derrick01

Banned
That was a pretty exhausting read about nothing meaningful, to me anyway. No words about how much of a better game it is, just ranting about story nonsense. I rolled my eyes when he said RDR was probably Rockstar's best game to date all because of its fucking story, never mind that it's one of the most boring games to actually play. But I guess as long as its story is decent enough that's all that matters in an open world game.
 
"Dear Niko,

To the guy who voice acted your character, oh man, you got jacked. Have you seen how much money GTAV made? Have you seen how huge this series is?"
 

Goldmund

Member
Even if you don't like GTA V, its cultural impact has led to so many great write-ups about the video game community and industry in general that you just have to be glad it's there.
 

Gorillaz

Member
That was a pretty good note and read. Disagree with most if not all tho

I'm all for games growing up but I'm also all for a sense of balance, which IV didn't. The game imo was Houser and Rockstar North's reaction to the public outcry from San Andreas which was considered too crazy too out of control and too raunchy (dat hot coffee). What I did find funny was how he was ok going with all the bloodshed, cop killing missions yet the torture scene was "hard" for him..and in some form I agree it was rough...more than the infamous MW2 scene, but at the same time the heavy handedness of it was removed when Trevor started acting all Trevor on ride to the airport. That was my problem, GTA 4 never had any sort of balance like that. Which is my main problem. It's not about being grown up but it's more about having a balanced story which for the most part GTA 4 was not....again in my opinion

GTA 5 while having a few slumps, is probably one of their best stories they made.

I edited that alot so some of this might read kind of run-on like.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I'm left wondering when I, or any of us, express a wish for GTA to grow up, what are we actually saying? What would it even mean for something like GTA to "grow up"? Our most satirically daring, adult-themed game is also our most defiantly puerile game. Maybe the biggest sin of the GTA games is the cheerful, spiteful way they rub our faces in what video games make us willing to do, in what video games are.

You know, maybe that's my problem with the game. It's not that I want GTA to change. It's that I want something else to replace GTA as I start to see my 20s in the rear view mirror.

In every other medium, there seems to be a way to "graduate" to something more "mature". Films, music, literature, television... even your taste in alcohol and food probably changes when you build up life experience and learn to like new things. The AAA game seems to be made for the 14-25 year old, but there isn't anything that exists for people who grow out of that age group.

Maybe it's a problem GTA shouldn't need to solve. Maybe the jokes that I find lazy and boring in GTAV are hilarious to someone half my age. And I just need to be okay with that.

I just feel a bit sad that there's nothing left for me to enjoy now. And I can only imagine it gets worse when you start getting into your 40s and 50s and 60s and the big games that people are making are still targeting your children or your grand children.
 

Scrabble

Member
The more I play 5, the more I realize how much I hate Niko as a character.

"I'm trying to be a good guy!"

---Niko, we need you to kill these 50 guys for a couple grand

"okay"

I know your exaggerating, but why do people continue to use this logic to paint Niko as an objectively bad character or something? Niko's internal conflict to leave his past life of violence, while simultaneously constantly being wrapped back into it is what makes his story interesting and what gives his character depth.

Is Don Draper a bad character because "I'm trying not to cheat on my wife", only to then proceed to cheat on his wife with many women time and time again? I'm tired of people not being able to separate a character you may dislike or have objection to, from an objectively poorly developed character. Only video games seem to have this issue.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Is Don Draper a bad character because "I'm trying not to cheat on my wife", only to then proceed to cheat on his wife with many women time and time again?
Yes. Of course he is.

That's like asking if Walter White is a villain.

Edit: wait, unless you mean qualitatively "bad" and not morally bad. In which case, ludonarrative dissonance and blahblahblah. lol
 
Hmm. A great read, but I can't identify with his sentiment at all, and I'm probably older than he is.

While IV did provide a gravity I appreciated, I don't need my games to reflect the same level of morality or meaning that I do in everyday life. It's a fantasy that I welcome as a respite from the monotonous grind. And I fucking love it to death more than any GTA or maybe even game before it, because it revels in it's fantasy while still treating the main storyline and its characters with a huge amount of respect, even while the tertiary activities and window dressing become more juvenile. There's more than just what's on the surface.

It's like Trevor. At face value a psychotic sociopathic scumbag who represents the ultimate GTA character. But underneath he understands what love is more than any of the other characters in the game. He understands sacrifice and loyalty and at times, even more humanity than I was ever expecting, even in the scene everyone loves to hate on. Don't take him or the game at face value or you're doing yourself a huge disservice.
Seconding this post and particularly the bolded. There is a lot more to the characters in GTA V than just the crime and violence you act out. They all go through trials that are conveyed through extreme situations in an extreme setting but the concepts behind them are not hard to relate to. They all go about addressing their problems in the wrong way (which give us our gameplay) but that doesn't mean there isn't a story worth hearing and that it cannot convey meaningful ideas.
I don't think playing video games makes people more violent. You of all people should know that. I do, however, believe playing video games turns people into bigger assholes than they would otherwise feel comfortable being. Games are founded upon competition and confrontation. It's probably no coincidence, then, that a large and extremely vocal part of the video-game audience responds to arguments with which it disagrees by lashing out. One reviewer of GTA V, Carolyn Petit of GameSpot, said the game was "politically muddled and profoundly misogynistic," which is very much a defensible position. Petit also made it clear she loved GTA V. Twenty thousand irate comments piled up beneath her review, many of them violent and hateful. Is this reasonable behavior? Sure, if you've come to regard anything that stands in perceived opposition to you as in dire need of eradication. What is that if not video-game logic in its purest, most distilled form?
I can't get behind this at all and his example with Carolyn Petit is blatantly off mark. What you saw on Gamespot is just a result of the pseudo-anonymity that the internet provides crossed with what, despite the M rating, is a very young immature fanbase that won't have to answer for their comments.

Saying "I do, however, believe playing video games turns people into bigger assholes than they would otherwise feel comfortable being." is just silly.
 
I thought it was a great piece and kind of sums up how I feel about the game. The story, if you can call it that, just doesn't sync up with the open world gameplay. It's like they created this fantastic detailed world and then tried desperately to stuff this idiotic story in it. The characters I have no empathy with whatsoever. The missions just feel like a chore sometimes. Really ambivalent about it so far.
 

evil ways

Member
Niko Bellic was shallow, boring and completely full of hypocrisy. I feel he was sort of a failed prototype to what John Marston from RDR ended up being. Even then, Marston never denied or flip flopped around his true nature, he was a killer and an outlaw to the end.
 

Squire

Banned
I thought it was a great piece and kind of sums up how I feel about the game. The story, if you can call it that, just doesn't sync up with the open world gameplay. It's like they created this fantastic detailed world and then tried desperately to stuff this idiotic story in it. The characters I have no empathy with whatsoever. The missions just feel like a chore sometimes. Really ambivalent about it so far.

Yeah, this is exactly how I feel. There an argument to be made that quite a big of what's in the game isn't fun at all, so I'm definitely in support of giving them a pass on their poor narrative in lieu that that stuff is.

Wow really great and touching article. (I had a bunch of other things written down that this article made me want to articulate, but I might just do it over on the original article)

Yeah , exactly. John is Niko with the kinks worked out and the character and the story are so much better for it. No weak "satire" either.
 

Scrabble

Member
That was a pretty exhausting read about nothing meaningful, to me anyway. No words about how much of a better game it is, just ranting about story nonsense. I rolled my eyes when he said RDR was probably Rockstar's best game to date all because of its fucking story, never mind that it's one of the most boring games to actually play. But I guess as long as its story is decent enough that's all that matters in an open world game.

RDR is boring now? I guess some just need little open world distractions and events every five feet to not get bored with something. I enjoyed the solitary alone feeling that RDR has. What you see as being boring with nothing happening, I see as being calm moments with the sun setting over the horizon, complemented with faint music playing in the background to perfectly capture a moment rarely seen in games. RDR captured that western feel beautifully, that is not boring.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
RDR is boring now? I guess some just need little open world distractions and events every five feet to not get bored with something. I enjoyed the solitary alone feeling that RDR has. What you see as being boring with nothing happening, I see as being calm moments with the sun setting over the horizon, complemented with faint music playing in the background to perfectly capture a moment rarely seen in games. RDR captured that western feel beautifully, that is not boring.
Like every R* game, it's just too long. I don't know if you could cut Mexico out of RDR, but you probably could trim significant parts of it.
 

Toxi

Banned
Almost everyone I know who loves video games — myself included — is broken in some fundamental way. With their ceaseless activity and risk-reward compulsion loops, games also soothe broken people. This is not a criticism. Fanatical readers tend to be broken people. The type of person who goes to see four movies a week alone is a broken person. Any medium that allows someone to spend monastic amounts of time by him- or herself, wandering the gloaming of imagination and reality, is doomed to be adored by lost, lonely people. But let's be honest: Spending the weekend in bed reading the collected works of Joan Didion is doing different things to your mind than spending the weekend on the couch racing cars around Los Santos. Again, not a criticism. The human mind contains enough room for both types of experience. Unfortunately, the mental activity generated by playing games is not much valued by non-gamers; in fact, play is hardly ever valued within American culture, unless it involves a $13 million signing bonus. Solitary play can feel especially shameful, and we gamers have internalized that vaguely masturbatory shame, even those of us who've decided that solitary play can be profoundly meaningful. Niko, I've thought about this a lot, and internalized residual shame is the best explanation I have to account for the cesspool of negativity that sits stagnating at the center of video-game culture, which right now seems worse than it's ever been.
It's depressing to read this and think about how it applies to myself. Good read, even if I disagree with some of his individual points.
 

Faddy

Banned
I actually think this hits the nail on the head about why GTA 4 was bad and not fun. Obviously the mechanics of driving were screwed up but it was hard to derive fun from being Niko. His motives were always portrayed as noble and in creating that kind of character it never felt right to go on a killing spree and just let loose. I don't want to tarnish Niko and make him unlikable.

With previous characters it was easy to make them do terrible things. GTA3 guy got screwed over on a heist and the game benefits from the slow start before getting screwed over by the mob. The character is pretty vapid so I have no anguish just letting him run riot.

Tommy was portrayed as being a decent guy as far as our POV goes and Sonny double crossing him at the very start makes it easy to be in a dog eat dog world.

For CJ he has the police riding him so it was always satisfying to blow them up or whatever else you can imagine. He is taking control of his life with an AK47.

For Niko that first step never happened for me, he is a merchant sailor trying to make it in New York. There is nothing that I know about him that makes me feel like I should tear up the place. In fact they make it harder with phone calls from Roman and your girlfriend making me think Niko has it pretty good. His secret only makes it less motivating to play, as if I am trying to be the good guy the missions are making me do terrible things that I have no interest in.
 
I don't think so. I think R* wants it to be more and meaningful and I think they missed the mark. The satire is far too obvious and tires very quickly and the protagonists are (or are almost) completely unsympathetic. Every character in that world is.

I think they may have tried to do that with GTAIV, but not with V. What i'll always remember about the lead up to GTAIV was when Rockstar was asked why they didn't include bicycles. Their response was that they didn't think Niko would ride one. That said everything about the game. At least on some level they were trying to ground it (at least as much as a game like GTA can be grounded). V is like the opposite approach. It seems like they came at it from the same angle that they came at the PS2 generation games. An angle where they just seem to be trying to come up up with things that'll make the game fun. That seemed to be their number 1 priority. And read interviews about the game also gives me that feeling.

At least that's the feeling that I get when I play it. I haven't completed it yet, but I feel like their end goal was to make sure that people wanted to continue playing the game after the story is wrapped up more than it was to have people sit back and think about the story that they were told. To me it's just a modern era PS2 GTA. Fun over all else. And I think that's what most people wanted it to be. Which would explain why both the gamer and critic response to it has been incredibly positive.
 
I thought it was a great piece and kind of sums up how I feel about the game. The story, if you can call it that, just doesn't sync up with the open world gameplay. It's like they created this fantastic detailed world and then tried desperately to stuff this idiotic story in it. The characters I have no empathy with whatsoever. The missions just feel like a chore sometimes. Really ambivalent about it so far.
Not at all?
Spoilers for early (<25% through) the game.
You don't feel bad for Michael loosing his family even if it is his own doing?

You don't feel bad for Franklin coming from a family who doesn't appreciate him or think he can be anything but a gangster?

Like I said before they are imperfect characters that go about remedying their problems in the wrong way (lucky for use it makes for fun gameplay). That doesn't mean it is impossible to empathize with them.
Almost everyone I know who loves video games — myself included — is broken in some fundamental way. With their ceaseless activity and risk-reward compulsion loops, games also soothe broken people. This is not a criticism. Fanatical readers tend to be broken people. The type of person who goes to see four movies a week alone is a broken person. Any medium that allows someone to spend monastic amounts of time by him- or herself, wandering the gloaming of imagination and reality, is doomed to be adored by lost, lonely people. But let's be honest: Spending the weekend in bed reading the collected works of Joan Didion is doing different things to your mind than spending the weekend on the couch racing cars around Los Santos. Again, not a criticism. The human mind contains enough room for both types of experience. Unfortunately, the mental activity generated by playing games is not much valued by non-gamers; in fact, play is hardly ever valued within American culture, unless it involves a $13 million signing bonus. Solitary play can feel especially shameful, and we gamers have internalized that vaguely masturbatory shame, even those of us who've decided that solitary play can be profoundly meaningful. Niko, I've thought about this a lot, and internalized residual shame is the best explanation I have to account for the cesspool of negativity that sits stagnating at the center of video-game culture, which right now seems worse than it's ever been.
This also. Ugh. Everyone engages in solitary entertainment in one way or another and how much it is valued by society should mean nothing to you if you receive meaningful enjoyment from it.

In summary we are all broken. Hardly news.
This sounds like a cry for help more than anything else.
I'm starting to lean towards this as well.
 

Fjordson

Member
This was brought up in the other thread, and like I said there, the open-world narrative still has yet to be perfected in games. It's tough to tell one that is tight and doesn't meander, though I still V's interesting thanks to the great protagonists.

But the rest of it just all comes down to personal taste. I lost count years ago the number of times I've read "GTA IV was too serious". Some people simply weren't into that style of R* game. I liked it and Red Dead for the reasons he mentioned, but I can also appreciate what V is doing.

And it's not a "generational" thing. I know people as old as Tom (or older, like my father who's 61) that love GTA V.
 

Squire

Banned
I think they may have tried to do that with GTAIV, but not with V. What i'll always remember about the lead up to GTAIV was when Rockstar was asked why they didn't include bicycles. Their response was that they didn't think Niko would ride one. That said everything about the game. At least on some level they were trying to ground it (at least as much as a game like GTA can be grounded). V is like the opposite approach. It seems like they came at it from the same angle that they came at the PS2 generation games. An angle where they just seem to be trying to come up up with things that'll make the game fun. That seemed to be their number 1 priority. And read interviews about the game also gives me that feeling.

At least that's the feeling that I get when I play it. I haven't completed it yet, but I feel like their end goal was to make sure that people wanted to continue playing the game after the story is wrapped up more than it was to have people sit back and think about the story that they were told. To me it's just a modern era PS2 GTA. Fun over all else. And I think that's what most people wanted it to be. Which would explain why both the gamer and critic response to it has been incredibly positive.

I dusagree to an extent. I read the pre-release interviews as well and this was to be the most ambitious narrative they've ever done. That's crystal clear. They definitely also endeavored to make the game more fun and almost infinitely playable, but story was definitely still a chief concern.

That's how you get quotes like, "The concept of being masculine was so key to this story." They set themselves up for criticism like Bissell's with statements like that and just their general attitude towards story. They take it very, very seriously, they have since GTA3, and that's one of my favorite things about the studio. But the story in GTA V isn't living up to the very lofty expectations they up themselves and some people are calling them on it. It's fair.
 
I dusagree to an extent. I read the pre-release interviews as well and this was to be the most ambitious narrative they've ever done. That's crystal clear. They definitely also endeavored to make the game more fun and almost infinitely playable, but story was definitely still a chief concern.

That's how you get quotes like, "The concept of being masculine was so key to this story." They set themselves up for criticism like Bissell's with statements like that and just their general attitude towards story. They take it very, very seriously, they have since GTA3, and that's one of my favorite things about the studio. But the story in GTA V isn't living up to the very lofty expectations they up themselves and some people are calling them on it. It's fair.

I'm not saying that they didn't take the story seriously. With GTAIV they were heavily criticized by many especially, especially on this forum, for seemingly placing priority on the story over making the game fun. So you ended up with incredibly boring side activities and a mission variety that was seriously lacking compared to previous games in the series. Many felt that the main reason for that was because they were trying to tell a serious story so they couldn't really have the over the top stuff that the series was known for.

So I view V as them switching those roles again. It's now gameplay > story. That doesn't mean that story isn't important to them. But it does mean that they won't allow story to interfere with them making a fun game.
 

BigDug13

Member
The failings of the character personalities and story itself for me was somewhat nullified by how awesome the heist-style gameplay and multiple player characters were from a game mechanics standpoint. And no matter what, Trevor is a brilliant character.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
GTA IV is gray and boring, I got tired of it before even finishing half the story. GTA V is fun as hell, and at 58 hours played I'm still loving every minute of it. The story and the characters interest me a hundred times more than anything that happened in IV. And again, it's fun. That's what makes a GTA a good GTA.

But that's me, and obviously not everyone feels that way.
 

Row

Banned
Interesting piece, but he definitely understates the fact that there is plenty of asshattery when it comes to critiques of other mediums such as books and definitely films
 

njean777

Member
RDR is boring now? I guess some just need little open world distractions and events every five feet to not get bored with something. I enjoyed the solitary alone feeling that RDR has. What you see as being boring with nothing happening, I see as being calm moments with the sun setting over the horizon, complemented with faint music playing in the background to perfectly capture a moment rarely seen in games. RDR captured that western feel beautifully, that is not boring.

Agree completely.

I also felt the satire in RDR was more impactful as well because it was sparse, and really only in conversations. I still think RDR is the best R* game this gen. I like GTA 5, but the satire is way to heavy.
 

Derrick01

Banned
RDR is boring now? I guess some just need little open world distractions and events every five feet to not get bored with something. I enjoyed the solitary alone feeling that RDR has. What you see as being boring with nothing happening, I see as being calm moments with the sun setting over the horizon, complemented with faint music playing in the background to perfectly capture a moment rarely seen in games. RDR captured that western feel beautifully, that is not boring.

So you're basically using the lame immersion argument to defend a game with empty gameplay in it like so many do with bad games. Walking simulators sure are fun!
 
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