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[-tetsuo-]

I cime in to say that, despite his obvious priblems if character conflict being in a GTA game, I really liked Niko.

 

[UrbanRats]

Kind of creepy.
Reminds me of this in a way:

Also, for those asking about GTAV's theme, more than anything it seems like an auto analysis of the GTA franchise.

 

[Lemstar]

I think everyone should also read his previous piece about GTA and his drug addiction.

 

[HoJu]

What a great article by Bissell. I had no idea about his coke-fueled days.
Though GTAV succeeds at creating a consistent world, its eagerness to show just how outrageous and morally repugnant it is left me cold and uncaring to both the characters and any plot developments.

 

[megamerican]

Yeah I don't really get why he addressed this to Niko. Anyway, it seems like a gussied up way to dredge up the Carolyn Petit thing again and imply GTA fans are all assholes.

More or less the problem with GTA seems to be that Tom got old and went soft.

 

[fastford58]

I know your exaggerating, but why do people continue to use this logic to paint Niko as an objectively bad character or something? Niko's internal conflict to leave his past life of violence, while simultaneously constantly being wrapped back into it is what makes his story interesting and what gives his character depth.

Is Don Draper a bad character because "I'm trying not to cheat on my wife", only to then proceed to cheat on his wife with many women time and time again? I'm tired of people not being able to separate a character you may dislike or have objection to, from an objectively poorly developed character. Only video games seem to have this issue.

He was not a terribly interesting character compared to any one of the three in GTAV. If the character is not terribly compelling, then the character is not written well.

There were many secondary characters in GTA4 that were leagues ahead of Niko who I would rather have spent my time with. Heck, the main characters in the GTA4 expansions shit on Niko, and they weren't even full games.

 

[Scrabble]

So you're basically using the lame immersion argument to defend a game with empty gameplay in it like so many do with bad games. Walking simulators sure are fun!

I know this may be hard for you to understand, but people can find appreciation of various aspects in certain types of art. What you find enjoyable may not align with what someone else enjoys about games, and vice versa. It doesn't make them wrong or your opinion somehow superior.

Also if you only constitute gameplay as being one off side diversions like "see how many thugs you can kill in rampage mode, and then do it 10 more times" than I think you need to be more flexibly open minded about what games are. But asking someone like you to be more open minded is a lost cause so forget it. I just fail to see how wandering the country side, or stopping to take in the view is somehow any less gameplay than whatever silly side activity is present in GTAV.

 

[Derrick01]

I know this may be hard for you to understand, but people can find appreciation of various aspects in certain types of art. What you find enjoyable may not align with what someone else enjoys about games, and vice versa. It doesn't make them wrong or your opinion somehow superior.

Also if you only constitute gameplay as being one off side diversions like "see how many thugs you can kill in rampage mode, and then do it 10 more times" than I think you need to be more flexibly open minded about what games are. But asking someone like you to be more open minded is a lost cause so forget it. I just fail to see how wandering the country side, or stopping to take in the view is somehow any less gameplay than whatever silly side activity is present in GTAV.

I shouldn't have to explain why walking and doing literally nothing isn't gameplay.

 

[Fjordson]

I know this may be hard for you to understand, but people can find appreciation of various aspects in certain types of art. What you find enjoyable may not align with what someone else enjoys about games, and vice versa. It doesn't make them wrong or your opinion somehow superior.

Also if you only constitute gameplay as being one off side diversions like "see how many thugs you can kill in rampage mode, and then do it 10 more times" than I think you need to be more flexibly open minded about what games are. But asking someone like you to be more open minded is a lost cause so forget it. I just fail to see how wandering the country side, or stopping to take in the view is somehow any less gameplay than whatever silly side activity is present in GTAV.

GTA V has what you're taking about also. The countryside and mountains are great to explore.

 

[zkylon]

very nice writeup, echoes some of the feelings I've gotten from replaying gta 4 lately.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

I shouldn't have to explain why walking and doing literally nothing isn't gameplay.

I'm still halfway through GTAV, but like 10% of the missions deviate from the "go here / bring this person here / deliver this stuff here then kill everything" mission design of RDR. Most of the time the difference comes down to which setting and/or mode of transport you prefer. Not to mention a bunch of the random events are straight ripped from RDR, as well as hunting and bounties. How RDR is a "walking simulator" but GTAV is some kind of revelation puzzles me. You can go ahead and bring up planes or whatever, but that's been done in tons of games already. I don't really find flight to be a talking point anymore, especially not with the terrible helicopters of GTAV.

And people criticized RDR for having an unfocused narrative, but GTAV is about nothing so far. It feels like a bunch of random character moments strung together by the player's motivation to finish the game. Nothing special IMO. The game shines when it's the trio interacting with each other, not the side stories.

 

[DirtyManos]

Like Bissell, playing GTA V has only shown me how much more I loved RDR. It's a good game, but the whole random chaos in a nicely designed world and way-too-obvious "satire" just doesn't do that much for me anymore.

 

[zkylon]

I shouldn't have to explain why walking and doing literally nothing isn't gameplay.

while I get where you're coming from, derrick, rdr in particular had a good amount of random shit to do that made cruising around the world entertaining (returning a wagon from robbers to some dude, hunting, rescuing some dame about to be hanged, robbing stores, bounties, etc.).

I mean by definition most open world games are activities stretched by periods of nothingness, but in rdr the segments in-between missions were pretty alright since the mood was great and riding horses was pretty fun, unlike say gta 4 in which driving is a drag, shooting is a drag, there's almost nothing to do except going on awkard dates with your cousin and all there is to carry the game is the "immersion" (which imo in gta4 it goes a long way but it's not nearly enough).

I still don't think rdr is rockstar's best game, I liked the warriors, and vice city a whole lot more

 

[Squire]

Driving sucks in V, in a way. It's great mechanically, but they're so committed to realistic traffic patterns driving around town can be a real pain.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I know your exaggerating, but why do people continue to use this logic to paint Niko as an objectively bad character or something? Niko's internal conflict to leave his past life of violence, while simultaneously constantly being wrapped back into it is what makes his story interesting and what gives his character depth.

Is Don Draper a bad character because "I'm trying not to cheat on my wife", only to then proceed to cheat on his wife with many women time and time again? I'm tired of people not being able to separate a character you may dislike or have objection to, from an objectively poorly developed character. Only video games seem to have this issue.

Yes, no one has had any issue with Superman in Man of Steel and the level of destruction he causes.

60% of Niko's dialog/screen time is terrible social commentary that is just irritating because the guy complaining is a terrorist, cop-killer going against the most strawy of strawmen. 30% is stuff where Niko agrees to do various insane things for seemingly little reason other than to get the player to the next mission. The last 10% is the actual plot, which makes no sense whatsoever if you take the 30% of bullshit, to get the player to the next mission, seriously.

"I can't believe that asshole, Vlad, wants me to kill somebody!"

*Ten seconds earlier*

"Yes, I will kill a few people for you, Jacob."

 

[snoopers]

Definitely a thought provoking piece. I particularly liked his exploration of the idea of the 'hardcore gamer' being, at some level, fundamentally "broken."

If I understood well, what he's saying is that "hardcore anything" are broken. Not just gamers.

 

[Andrew Korenchkin]

Did you copy/paste the entire article? Eh...

This is one of the reasons why I didn't post the article. I'm not sure how much of the article I'm suppose to post.

Any way, I think Bissell's article is interesting, although I admit I sometimes feel that his opinions and clarity are sort of buried under a lot of purple prose. Regardless, the main theme of games not cutting it enough is something I worry about, as well. We all want games to grow up (at least many of us), and quite frankly I agree. However, it just seems hard, and the game we play that just seem to miss some sort of magic is very frustrating.

 

[Plywood]

The game definitely does feel spiteful at times and has its fair share of awkward, cringe-worthy and uncomfortable moments.

 

[Sub_Level]

Well written article, but I'm not sure what it was about.

Something about growing up? Something about the game just being satire and not much else?

I dunno, didn't have complaints with either of those points. Is Dr. Strangelove supposed to grow up and have some sort of meaningful plot? Pulp Fiction?

 

[TheSeks]

The more I play 5, the more I realize how much I hate Niko as a character.

"I'm trying to be a good guy!"

---Niko, we need you to kill these 50 guys for a couple grand

"okay"

Hahaha. Exactly. That and Roman's calls (along with the cars driving like boats) killed GTA4 for me. Killed it so hard I have yet to even look at the expansions or 5.

 

[Cels]

So, video game writer/advocate Tom Bissell wrote a very long "letter" to Niko. In it, he talks briefly about his personal experiences while playing GTA IV, and the how the way his life has gone since then might have shaped his perception of V. I tried bolding some of the parts I thought were interesting/important. Lock/mock if old.

in the future stop copying the entire article, just put little snippets like what you did with the bolded.
i have not played gtav although i did replay vice city recently and have not changed my opinion of it...i first played vice city about a decade ago, scary to look at it that way.

 

[karasu]

That was a pretty exhausting read about nothing meaningful, to me anyway. No words about how much of a better game it is, just ranting about story nonsense. I rolled my eyes when he said RDR was probably Rockstar's best game to date all because of its fucking story, never mind that it's one of the most boring games to actually play. But I guess as long as its story is decent enough that's all that matters in an open world game.

Agreed.

 

[Squire]

Well written article, but I'm not sure what it was about.

Something about growing up? Something about the game just being satire and not much else?

I dunno, didn't have complaints with either of those points. Is Dr. Strangelove supposed to grow up and have some sort of meaningful plot? Pulp Fiction?

You could have saved this post, dude. Really embarrassing.

 

[golem]

This was brought up in the other thread, and like I said there, the open-world narrative still has yet to be perfected in games. It's tough to tell one that is tight and doesn't meander, though I still V's interesting thanks to the great protagonists.

Never tried pork buns?

Actually I think GTA V's narrative is almost the right length. Yes there are some filler missions in the middle, but Rockstar kept the missions pretty fresh and the narrative moving.

 

[Sub_Level]

You could have saved this post, dude. Really embarrassing.

Explain please. I have no idea what the article is about. He starts with how games rely on a fun loop and how GTA doesn't necessarily apply to that convention and if it does does so in a way that makes mundane tasks fun, then to how gamers are broken and confrontational and how that's what elicits terrible behavior on the internet, then to how GTA has no discernable theme or narrative, and finally how younger gamers are now the target audience in his generation's stead.

The only common thread I see is that the writer feels alienated. That's cool I guess. But yeah like one of the posters above I would recommend Sleeping Dogs for a tighter, more conventional story. Loved that game too. Author of this article would likely enjoy it and wouldn't be surprised if he played Wei Shen to fit that character as well (i.e. no rampages)

 

[Squire]

Explain please. I have no idea what the article is about. He starts with how games rely on a fun loop and how GTA doesn't necessarily apply to that convention and if it does does so in a way that makes mundane tasks fun, then to how gamers are broken and confrontational and how that's what elicits terrible behavior on the internet, then to how GTA has no discernable theme or narrative, and finally how younger gamers are now the target audience in his generation's stead.

The only common thread I see is that the writer feels alienated. That's cool I guess. But yeah like one of the posters above I would recommend Sleeping Dogs for a tighter, more conventional story. Loved that game too. Author of this article would likely enjoy it and wouldn't be surprised if he played Wei Shen to fit that character as well (i.e. no rampages)

Oh, you made it sound like you didn't actually comprehend it.

Remember, it's a letter not an essay. It goes from topic to topic like that because it's really just a monologue. He's just airing his grievances with the game in general. There's no structure past that.

 

[Discotheque]

Kind of creepy.
Reminds me of this in a way:

Also, for those asking about GTAV's theme, more than anything it seems like an auto analysis of the GTA franchise.

That's what I got from Trevor for sure

Whereas with Michael I got the sense they were trying to give us a tony soprano. Aka a gangster who is trying to deal with a problematic family life and his love for crime

They both aren't executed perfectly. But just for the attempt alone it makes them the best main characters rockstar has ever had. Really enjoy the dialogue exchanges between the main characters too

Game of the gen, flaws and all

Edit: sleeping dogs? Story and dialogue sucked ass in there. It was just fun because of the combat really and also because we were given a non American city to explore

GTA V is a loose narrative. The only thing tying it all together is this FBI thing that Michael got the other two into. But it's a superior story to other rockstar titles because of these characters. I love watching cutscenes of them alone and together

 

[Eknots]

Skimmed through most of it but last 2 paragraphs hit it home for me.
(Have yet to play GTA V but that's how IV felt to me when going back and replaying it recently)

 

[Fjordson]

Never tried pork buns?

Actually I think GTA V's narrative is almost the right length. Yes there are some filler missions in the middle, but Rockstar kept the missions pretty fresh and the narrative moving.

Eh, I didn't enjoy Sleeping Dogs much. Kinda bored me for the most part (if that's what you were referring to with pork buns).

As for V's narrative, I agree with you. It mostly works for me. I just meant that there's still room to improve in that aspect of open-world games. What I'm liking about V is that a lot of missions come from the characters themselves. They're going out there for themselves and getting things done. As opposed to every quest being an order given to you by an NPC.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Having said that, I do appreciate the spirit of it. I think GTA is a bit too one-note for its own good, and that clashes with the increasingly fleshed out, realistic worlds the games are set in. They're so ruthlessly, obsessively cynical in their satire that it becomes tiring after a while.

sort of understand the criticism here. I like the humour but there was a couple times listening to radio ads that a few completely different ads almost sounded the same.

But that's a minor criticism. it's still the best game I've ever played and the author sounds like he's lamenting growing old a little bit.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Tom Bissell is my favorite writer about games. Excellent piece, I expected nothing less.

He's great, whether you agree with him or not. His piece on The Last of Us was superb as well.

 

[BanGy.nz]

Any medium that allows someone to spend monastic amounts of time by him- or herself, wandering the gloaming of imagination and reality, is doomed to be adored by lost, lonely people.

That is an amazing sentence.

 

[Neuromancer]

Tom Bissell's an excellent writer. I haven't finished V yet but I'd say I'd agree with most of his comments. The story definitely meanders all over the place to the point where I don't know what Rockstar is even trying to accomplish. The heists make sense but the FIB/IAA missions, and why the main three characters are doing them (for free no less), are really bizarre. Not in a good way.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I don't agree with a good chunk of how he feels about the game yet agree with a lot of what he has to say about gaming. Interesting ruminations and a good read, much more than I expected.

I think the real wrinkle is that monastic pursuits lead possibly to more naval gazing than is really healthy as well.

 

[rdrr gnr]

There are some great lines throughout the piece, but it felt as directionless as the narrative in GTA V. Having it be a "letter" seems like a deliberate attempt to add structure to rather disparate thoughts. I'm glad people still recognize RDR as Rockstar's best game this generation. It continues to hold up year after year -- dwarfing all other R* output. I still value Bissell's nonfiction commentary over his thoughts on fiction itself as his most recent attempt at writing video games was an abomination. He's like the video game Robert McKee.

That is an amazing sentence.

Also untrue.

 

[Jeb]

The more I play 5, the more I realize how much I hate Niko as a character.

"I'm trying to be a good guy!"

---Niko, we need you to kill these 50 guys for a couple grand

"okay"

Not to mention all those he kills on the way.
He keeps whining about all the horrible things he has done in the past, as if if we were supposed to sympathize with, while he continues to do horrible things as he whines.

 

[Mifune]

He's like the video game Robert McKee.

This makes zero sense. Bissell is not trying to instruct anyone on how to make games. And he's got a successful career even if he stops writing about games tomorrow.

As for his actual game writing skills, a less than spectacular rookie attempt is not enough to write him off completely. I think The Witness will have people singing a different tune.

 

[rdrr gnr]

This makes zero sense. Bissell is not trying to instruct anyone on how to make games. And he's got a successful career even if he stops writing about games tomorrow.

As for his actual game writing skills, a less than spectacular rookie attempt is not enough to write him off completely. I think The Witness will have people singing a different tune.

I was simply referring the disconnect between some rather insightful analysis on the role and construction of fiction in videogames and actually being able to apply that analytic skill in an interesting manner. That's why I was rather disappointed by his "rookie attempt." I just thought to myself "this guy understands how video games should be written" but now I have my reservations. Though, to be fair, there have been a many number of great writers who never attempted or failed miserably in the world of fiction -- as it is a different beast from this type of writing.

The Witness? I didn't know that game had a writer.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Tom Bissell: The greatest writer to ever spill ink on the subject of video games.

 

[DominoKid]

Read that article the other day and realized I could never agree w/ him because I think GTA IV was horrible in every way and RDR was largely boring. It was better than GTA IV though.

This in comparison to GTA V which is hands down the most entertaining game I've had the pleasure of playing. Awesome, lovable characters even if they are terrible people. Amazing world chock full of great humor and experiences. Plus a story that I actually gave a damn about.

I dunno, it seems like the guy just had to get some words off his chest. That's cool.

 

[mrklaw]

This also. Ugh. Everyone engages in solitary entertainment in one way or another and how much it is valued by society should mean nothing to you if you receive meaningful enjoyment from it.

In summary we are all broken. Hardly news.

I'm starting to lean towards this as well.

I'd argue that with how we are all connected, we are sometimes too social, and 'monastic pursuits' are essential to a degree to retain some sense of self, to be comfortable in one's skin

Or maybe I'm just broken

 

[HK-47]

I shouldn't have to explain why walking and doing literally nothing isn't gameplay.

Actually walking is technically part of the gameplay and also constitutes doing something.

 

[a.wd]

I shouldn't have to explain why walking and doing literally nothing isn't gameplay.

You must have hated journey...

 

[cozo]

this fucking guy

 

[akira28]

satire? It's pretty much straight up parody a la Idiocracy at this point. And it's been ramping up ever since Vice City. It hasn't been subtle satire for a while, and doesn't need to be. They don't go hardcore like Freckle Bitches but they may as well.

 

[antennaehead]

Amazing article. I feel that I enjoyed Nico's character and story more than GTA 5 trio so far. It doesn't help that GTA 5 story pacing is weird and awkward from time to time. V's open world and attention to details is absolutely amazing on the other hand.

 

[bj00rn_]

It looks like Tom Bissell is roughly in the same age group as me (serious job, family, the usual stuff bla bla bla) and I've quite frankly enjoyed the hell out of GTAV and its characters and "story" (as have all my "grown up" GTA-playing colleagues at work it seems like), so I have little understanding for author's sort-of condescending summary regarding the age / grow-up anecdotal evidence. I'm actually slightly offended.

 

[xbhaskarx]

this fucking guy

Can you elaborate on what exactly you mean, because it could be interpreted as "I wanted to post a comment but I didn't actually read the entire article and/or I have nothing of value to say about it"...

 

[King Tubby]

I shouldn't have to explain why walking and doing literally nothing isn't gameplay.

Maybe you do. When a game really puts you into the shoes of a fictional character, when it truly immerses you in its world and story, sometimes the most enjoyable things to do don't involve following an objective or killing enemies but rather acting as you feel is appropriate. When I (GTA V spoilers)

Spoiler

am driving my family to therapy as Michael, I drive way more slowly because I think he would, because he wouldn't want them in danger.

If my character has spent a long time and a hard battle in some underground cave system, it feels right to have them bask in the sun for a little bit. I've heard of people who make the pilgrimage in Morrowind with no items and completely on foot because that's what seems right in the context of the game world. Gameplay is just how you play the game.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I don't agree with a good chunk of how he feels about the game yet agree with a lot of what he has to say about gaming. Interesting ruminations and a good read, much more than I expected.

I think the real wrinkle is that monastic pursuits lead possibly to more naval gazing than is really healthy as well.

I smiled at the line about monastic pursuits, because of the condescension that seems behind it. There's nothing intrinsically bad about being lost or even lonely. Sometimes the forest is the only place to find a clear path, and a crowd of people can be a desert.