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[Kenshin001]

It looks like Tom Bissell is roughly in the same age group as me (serious job, family, the usual stuff bla bla bla) and I've quite frankly enjoyed the hell out of GTAV and its characters and "story" (as have all my "grown up" GTA-playing colleagues at work it seems like), so I have little understanding for author's sort-of condescending summary regarding the age / grow-up anecdotal evidence. I'm actually slightly offended.

Think I am in that group too and I've found the writing and story absolute garbage. I'm frankly amazed more reviewers didn't call Rockstar out on it. The game is just that more satisfying when the characters shut up and you put your brain in neutral.

What's worse is I see how much potential has been wasted, how the story could have been coherent and the dialogue so much better than the hysterical annoying conversations continually inflicted on me to the point I just want to press the mute button.

 

[Snkfanatic]

Damn good article, I don't agree with a number of his points but it was a great read.

 

[Fjordson]

Think I am in that group too and I've found the writing and story absolute garbage. I'm frankly amazed more reviewers didn't call Rockstar out on it.

Call them out on what? Some people enjoyed it. Opinions and whatnot.

 

[UrbanRats]

I'm about 50% into the story, so i can't say for sure where the story will go by the end, however i can already understand the critique about the lack of focus of the plot, as it seems to be about everything and nothing (despite having some of the funniest moments in any R* game), all three characters plow through the (fun and varied) missions with the need to make money that is indefinitely withheld, or being blackmailed by someone who's even a bigger asshole than you.
Standard GTA trope, that is constantly used in both GTAIV and RDR, too.

The thing is, you really couldn't play GTAIV without breaking the narrative, even if you stopped at red lights, walked everywhere and stood in front of the urinals every once in a while, simulating Niko taking a piss.
You couldn't because the shit the game required you to do, broke up the narrative, and it did because it's a videogame and expecting the same level of tightness you expect from a movie or a book is silly.
Now i'm sure Bissell is more aware of this than i am, since he writes games on the side, but it really doesn't matter if you think Niko going on a killing rampage "breaks the narrative", when even in a linear game like Bioshock or Uncharted, you can stray from the critical path to collect coins and meaningless, game-y shit; when you can stand in a corner facing the wall, jump on the spot for 40 minutes or stare in silence into an NPC's awkward dead eyes for minutes.
The extent developers go, to try and polish up this aspect is insane, and it's still completely broken, no matter what they come up with.
Even a super guided experience like Heavy Rain was easily broken if you sit in a chair for too long on stand facing the wrong direction.

This is an obsession that i feel too in a way, but that i think we're losing far too much time and energy over, when it really isn't that important, since people that play know how to differentiate the two aspects of a videogame anyway and, once you're ready to accept a less polished narrative experience, you'll be ready to narrate your story through pure gameplay, i feel.

Niko wasn't what R* wanted him to be, Niko was what he was when I was playing as him, 'cause that's what a videogame is about fundamentally, in my opinion, and no level of polish can fix that.
--

As for GTAV, i didn't finish yet, as i said before, but i think the game is about itself more than anything else, consciously or not.
The game feels, to me, very much like a therapy session for GTA and all its trappings and tropes, down to the three characters' archetypes, the clash of tones (stunningly poetic art direction on crass humor and awkward satire) and everything else that, in minor form, plagued even Max Payne 3 and Red Dead Redemption.
The game feels very much like the sum of "everything GTA" and is incidentally what R* has been promoting the game as, this whole time (the biggest, most ambitious GTA yet etc etc).

I think looking for a thematic inside the game's plot will miss the bigger and more interesting point of the game, and i wonder if it's just an ironic coincidence, that in this game, therapy and psycho analysis are recurring themes.

 

[ambar_hitman]

lol at People playing GTA games for story and plot. Go read a book or something. Gameplay of GTA V has improved over GTA IV in every single aspect, that alone makes it better.

 

[Kenshin001]

Call them out on what? Some people enjoyed it. Opinions and whatnot.

Call them out on the cringeworthy dialogue and poorly constructed nonsense story. I know opinions and all that, that's why I'm frankly amazed. I'm really surprised the consensus is the opposite, that the game has been described as intelligent and biting satire. Reading reviews the game is supposed to be funny but the only time I laugh is through situations I've created when I'm not doing the missions.

 

[UrbanRats]

lol at People playing GTA games for story and plot. Go read a book or something. Gameplay of GTA V has improved over GTA IV in every single aspect, that alone makes it better.

I usually enjoy the funny aspects of the story.
Yusuf was a funny character and so is Trevor.

The dramatic arc though is always forgettable at best, and it has always been that way.

 

[Cheddahz]

I played GTAV and I enjoyed it, but it felt more like a movie to me than anything and it didn't bring anything to the table that made me want to play it again. Sure, the countryside looks beautiful, but there is literally nothing to do there and all of the activities in the game are tied to the story and if you attempt to do them on your own, there's no point in doing it. It also doesn't help that Rockstar tried to add some juvenile elements to the story; I know Saint's Row got really popular because of it, but Rockstar literally tried to add story elements like the ones in Saint's Row and in the end, they don't make you laugh and they honestly make you feel awkward (hell, one of my friends even complained about this)

I guess I had more fun with the GTA games back in middle school (I'm in college now), they have simply become weekend games, which means I'll play it once and never go back to them, because there is nothing calling me to go back and play them

 

[Tawpgun]

I agree with him.

I LOVED the more serious tone GTA took, and the serious story of Red Dead.

GTAV is catering to the, admittedly large, population of people who wanted the ridiculousness of past GTA's to return. It's a valid critique. It's what the series was based off of.

But I know I would have love to see GTA grow up to be something more. A really well written crime story with plenty of satire elements.



Game is still fuckin fun though.

 

[The Albatross]

RDR is boring now? I guess some just need little open world distractions and events every five feet to not get bored with something. I enjoyed the solitary alone feeling that RDR has. What you see as being boring with nothing happening, I see as being calm moments with the sun setting over the horizon, complemented with faint music playing in the background to perfectly capture a moment rarely seen in games. RDR captured that western feel beautifully, that is not boring.

Totally agree. It's why I kind of like Mexico in RDR, even though it drags out, is the desolateness of the desert. If anything, I wished that it was more lonely out in the wilders.

That said, I totally love GTAV. It also has it's "Alone" moments, especially in Chiliad National Park, up on the mountains, or wandering through near the ocean. I also like the contrast that it offers, something that RDR and GTAIV never did (there were no lonely parts of GTAIV).

 

[wizzbang]

I'm 35 y/o
GTAV has knocked Doom off the perch for me.
This game is the definition of why I game, it's virtually flawless.

September 17.

 

[UrbanRats]

I agree with him.

I LOVED the more serious tone GTA took, and the serious story of Red Dead.

GTAV is catering to the, admittedly large, population of people who wanted the ridiculousness of past GTA's to return. It's a valid critique. It's what the series was based off of.

But I know I would have love to see GTA grow up to be something more. A really well written crime story with plenty of satire elements.



Game is still fuckin fun though.

GTAIV was as grown up as a high schooler's anarchic phase, though.

RDR however had some good, dramatic moments.

 

[rosaceadude2112]

god damn i hated niko, such a turd of a character. michael

Spoiler

quietly tucking jimmy behind his back when trevor shows up

was a better character moment than just about anything in 4. niko was just the straight man in some ham-fisted political cartoon, always practically winking at the camera going, "this guy is nuts!" his whole shtick kinda undermines all the attempts at satire too. ohhh i grow so weary of america and its materialist obsessions, i wish i could go back to a simpler time when i was smuggling prostitutes into slavery in the balkans.

 

[Tawpgun]

GTAIV was as grown up as a high schooler's anarchic phase, though.

RDR however had some good, dramatic moments.

Yeah it wasn't perfect but I liked the direction it was going to. Augmented by RDR's tone as well.

Unfortunately, a lot of people would rather have silliness.

 

[professor_t]

So, Tom Bissell actually likes games, right? It seems like he's disappointed in virtually everything he writes about (though, to be fair, maybe I'm missing his more positive reviews).

Or may he's worried that his legitimacy as a critic will be threatened if he writes a largely favorable review about a video game.

 

[Basileus777]

So, Tom Bissell actually likes games, right? It seems like he's disappointed in virtually everything he writes about (though, to be fair, maybe I'm missing his more positive reviews).

Or may he's worried that his legitimacy as a critic will be threatened if he writes a largely favorable review about a video game.

It's a well-written piece, psychoanalyzing him like this is a bit odd. It's tough to treat this as legitimate criticism and not just a baseless way to attack him.

 

[Dyno]

Damn good article, I don't agree with a number of his points but it was a great read.

I feel the same way. I'm enjoying the game immensely and just appreciate existing in the space while listening to good music.

 

[Fjordson]

Edit: damnit, wrong thread. Too many GTA V threads

 

[professor_t]

It's a well-written piece, psychoanalyzing him like this is a bit odd. It's tough to treat this as legitimate criticism and not just a baseless way to attack him.

I'm not trying to contest any of those things (though, to be fair, enjoyment is subjective by definition), but I'm also not talking solely about this article. I don't want to get off topic, but it seems like Bissell rarely likes anything that he writes about.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'm still halfway through GTAV, but like 10% of the missions deviate from the "go here / bring this person here / deliver this stuff here then kill everything" mission design of RDR. Most of the time the difference comes down to which setting and/or mode of transport you prefer. Not to mention a bunch of the random events are straight ripped from RDR, as well as hunting and bounties. How RDR is a "walking simulator" but GTAV is some kind of revelation puzzles me. You can go ahead and bring up planes or whatever, but that's been done in tons of games already. I don't really find flight to be a talking point anymore, especially not with the terrible helicopters of GTAV.

And people criticized RDR for having an unfocused narrative, but GTAV is about nothing so far. It feels like a bunch of random character moments strung together by the player's motivation to finish the game. Nothing special IMO. The game shines when it's the trio interacting with each other, not the side stories.

RDR is not a walking simulator, that prize goes to Skyrim.

RDR does have long stretches of nothing that is seemingly justified by the environment, but I constantly thought while playing of all the little things, the hardships and challenges of frontier life that the game could have included. Sure, some of those things might not have been exciting to their target demographic, but exactly how much more exciting is a whole lot of nothing to do nothing in?

As it stands, I did actually really like RDR because I personally enjoyed the random events, bounties, wrangling horses, and the writing and missions. For my money though, GTAV actually captures the sense of wandering a real place, of seeing a mountain in a vista and then being able to go there and stand on top of it, better than RDR did - and then has more stuff to do on the side as well. I'd agree the story is nothing great, the writing is uneven at best, the satire is abysmally weak and juvenile, but the world is what keeps me coming back for more in a way that is actually very similar but wholly above and beyond RDR.

I smiled at the line about monastic pursuits, because of the condescension that seems behind it. There's nothing intrinsically bad about being lost or even lonely. Sometimes the forest is the only place to find a clear path, and a crowd of people can be a desert.

Also a fair point.

 

[MYeager]

I dusagree to an extent. I read the pre-release interviews as well and this was to be the most ambitious narrative they've ever done. That's crystal clear. They definitely also endeavored to make the game more fun and almost infinitely playable, but story was definitely still a chief concern.

That's how you get quotes like, "The concept of being masculine was so key to this story." They set themselves up for criticism like Bissell's with statements like that and just their general attitude towards story. They take it very, very seriously, they have since GTA3, and that's one of my favorite things about the studio. But the story in GTA V isn't living up to the very lofty expectations they up themselves and some people are calling them on it. It's fair.

I see your point but I personally found the story to be the best one they've put in a GTA game. There are occasional problems with the pace, but the entire plot is entirely driven by these three characters instead of the typical GTA story where the characters are bounced around within the plot at the whim of everyone else. Even the missions that you do for characters with little payoff if due to choices that these characters made in the past. There are individual scenes that are more powerful because of this than anything in prior GTA games, like Michael moving his son behind him slowly in a scene or

Spoiler

when two characters face off with guns drawn and you aren't sure if they're going to shoot another out of anger or let the other character shoot them out of feelings of guilt or the feeling that they have no reason to go on.

In that regard this is the most ambitious story they've ever told. Unlike other games there's no real one main antagonist to fight back against, and most of the problems dealt with in the game are the result of the characters actions.

 

[UrbanRats]

Regarding the RDR - GTAV comparison.
50% into the game, i can say for the first time in a R* open world game i felt like none of the missions were wasting my time, and i actually enjoyed most if not all of them.
I do wish heists were more complex, but it's still far and away better than the "go here shoot all the people down" or the "protect the carriage" you had, over and over in RDR.
In that sense, so far, the game has been pretty great.

RDR had a great start with varied missions, but quickly diverted into very lazy mission design, to become interesting again towards the very end.
GTAV is being far more consistently fresh.

 

[Mifune]

I'm not trying to contest any of those things (though, to be fair, enjoyment is subjective by definition), but I'm also not talking solely about this article. I don't want to get off topic, but it seems like Bissell rarely likes anything that he writes about.

Are you confusing him with Tom Chick? Bissell is one of the most passionate gamers out there, and the vast majority of his reviews (if you can call them that) are positive. Hell, he even says in this one that he enjoyed the game.

Funny Tom story: My fiancee went to a reading of his at a local bookstore, since we've both enjoyed his writing for a long time. She wanted to get something signed by him but we didn't actually own any of his books. So I sorta half-jokingly told her to have him sign my Demon's Souls instruction booklet, since it was his raving about the Souls games on the Brainy Gamer podcast that got me to finally check out and fully love that first game. Well she presented it to him at the signing table and he gasped and held it to his heart like it was some childhood memento.

That's the kind of cool guy Tom is. And now I own a Demon's Souls booklet signed by Tom Bissell.

 

[Derrick01]

lol at People playing GTA games for story and plot. Go read a book or something. Gameplay of GTA V has improved over GTA IV in every single aspect, that alone makes it better.

Yeah the story has sucked and been pretty predictable in every GTA, including IV where they sacrificed so many fun elements to try and have a better story. I do agree the story in 5 seems to go nowhere (at least that's where I am after 40 missions) but you know who gives 0 fucks? Me.

The next GTA should be all about getting money, like this game, but with no fucks given to trying to explain why. Why are you shooting up a military base? Because you're being paid to recover something like a jet and you'll have to fly it out while dodging pursuing jets. "B-b-but that's so unrealistic and doesn't match most people's motivations and"....no, just shut up. You're doing it because it's fun and the job pays well. That's all the motivation you need in a GTA game.

 

[Basileus777]

I'd be okay with the "story doesn't matter" thing if Rockstar didn't spend so much time focusing on it in their games. If I have to watch hours of story scenes, then yes, story quality does matter.

 

[Remachinate]

Yeah the story has sucked and been pretty predictable in every GTA, including IV where they sacrificed so many fun elements to try and have a better story. I do agree the story in 5 seems to go nowhere (at least that's where I am after 40 missions) but you know who gives 0 fucks? Me.

The next GTA should be all about getting money, like this game, but with no fucks given to trying to explain why. Why are you shooting up a military base? Because you're being paid to recover something like a jet and you'll have to fly it out while dodging pursuing jets. "B-b-but that's so unrealistic and doesn't match most people's motivations and"....no, just shut up. You're doing it because it's fun and the job pays well. That's all the motivation you need in a GTA game.

I hear Saint's Row might be for you.

 

[Derrick01]

I hear Saint's Row might be for you.

Don't insult me with a recommendation like that. The actual gameplay in GTA is great but people who only care about D tier stories are wasting their time and eventually my time when devs keep making games more cinematic because they think it's what people want. They would be better off watching Lifetime if that's all they care about.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I'd be okay with the "story doesn't matter" thing if Rockstar didn't spend so much time focusing on it in their games. If I have to watch hours of story scenes, then yes, story quality does matter.

Exactly. You're forced to hear it, see it, and reenact it over and over again just to get through any given mission. It's not the worst thing except when it's irritating or starts to mildly irk. The game, itself, is a great achievement of design and technical skill, outside of the deadness of so much useless space, like GTA IV, but the heavily-woven nature of the game's main storytelling makes it impossible to ignore or avoid when working through the campaign unlike playing many older games where the firewall that sits between story and game is crossed easily and quickly by simply pressing a skip button that results in actually playing the game immediately with just the pertinent information to the mission communicated directly and concisely without the scripted theatrics. It was a nice compromise and a way to make things more palatable to a wider range of gamers who could treat the game the way it seems to want to be treated and that is like a eating at a buffet. It's like being forced to eat one thing in order to be able to eat any of the rest. It's a failure common to the overly-cinematic games, I think.

 

[mckmas8808]

Agree completely.

I also felt the satire in RDR was more impactful as well because it was sparse, and really only in conversations. I still think RDR is the best R* game this gen. I like GTA 5, but the satire is way to heavy.

I don't understand post like this. What does it mean?