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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

BlackTron

Member
13m lifetime sales ps5

115m ps4

Ok, well, every PlayStation that has ever released had lower lifetime sales than its predecessor one year into its life. That said, PS5 is doing better for the same period than any of them ever have. So, acting like this is some new unusual reason that forces publishers hands is silly.

Fact is it's really easy to do cross gen because the architecture of both systems is the same and it's cheaper/more profitable to tap that existing install base.

But it's not like this is some new problem with install bass of PS5. PS5 actually has the smallest problem with install base of any PS ever at one year. I don't get how/why people don't get this. PS5 "shortage" has nothing to do with this issue. It's a choice that can be argued to make sense but you just can't back it up by saying it's because nobody can buy PS5. A lot more ps1 systems were out there than PS2s at one year in...but PS2 was getting tons of exclusive games despite having a much smaller base.

This is the same pattern every time a new system comes out and people act like PS5 is the only system that ever had a smaller install base than it's predecessor at one year. Bizarre.
 

Tschumi

Member
Ok, well, every PlayStation that has ever released had lower lifetime sales than its predecessor one year into its life. That said, PS5 is doing better for the same period than any of them ever have. So, acting like this is some new unusual reason that forces publishers hands is silly.

Fact is it's really easy to do cross gen because the architecture of both systems is the same and it's cheaper/more profitable to tap that existing install base.

But it's not like this is some new problem with install bass of PS5. PS5 actually has the smallest problem with install base of any PS ever at one year. I don't get how/why people don't get this. PS5 "shortage" has nothing to do with this issue. It's a choice that can be argued to make sense but you just can't back it up by saying it's because nobody can buy PS5. A lot more ps1 systems were out there than PS2s at one year in...but PS2 was getting tons of exclusive games despite having a much smaller base.

This is the same pattern every time a new system comes out and people act like PS5 is the only system that ever had a smaller install base than it's predecessor at one year. Bizarre.
i stand by my statements.

covid impacted global production hugely in this area, when they were making decisions on exclusivity they were doing it in an environment of uncertainty about future ps5 sales numbers, market access, whatever businessheads would call it, they made the decision to ask for the first batch of games coming for ps5 to also be able to run on the previous generaiton, because the previous generation sold 115m units and there was no guarantee the ps5 would be a huge success, or able to be produced in quantities. do you think GT7 started development after PS5 had a record breaking first year? No, of course it didn't.

Saying 'hey, the ps5 had a good first year so gt7 shoulda been a next gen exclusive' is about as convenient a warping of time as is possible in this physical universe, seems to me
 
I told you all Photorealism was possible this gen.


Not a medical advice but you should get your eyes checked.

 

BlackTron

Member
i stand by my statements.

covid impacted global production hugely in this area, when they were making decisions on exclusivity they were doing it in an environment of uncertainty about future ps5 sales numbers, market access, whatever businessheads would call it, they made the decision to ask for the first batch of games coming for ps5 to also be able to run on the previous generaiton, because the previous generation sold 115m units and there was no guarantee the ps5 would be a huge success, or able to be produced in quantities. do you think GT7 started development after PS5 had a record breaking first year? No, of course it didn't.

Saying 'hey, the ps5 had a good first year so gt7 shoulda been a next gen exclusive' is about as convenient a warping of time as is possible in this physical universe, seems to me

I think covid, future uncertainty and easy scalability are valid reasons to rely on the safety of the older consoles install base.

But not being able to get a PS5 is a pretty bad reason. People say they HAD to do cross gen because of PS5 shortage. I call BS on that.

I think it's just good business, but it has nothing to do with a problem with PS5 supply. Look at how many games were on both PS3 and PS4. I think there would have been even more if PS3 had been the same x86. That's what we are seeing now with PS4 to PS5 crossgen. Wanting the safety of old install base makes sense, but I wish people would stop saying they have to because PS5 supply constraints. It was a good business idea long before PS5 and it's just easier to do now.
 
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Tschumi

Member
I think covid, future uncertainty and easy scalability are valid reasons to rely on the safety of the older consoles install base.

But not being able to get a PS5 is a pretty bad reason. People say they HAD to do cross gen because of PS5 shortage. I call BS on that.

I think it's just good business, but it has nothing to do with a problem with PS5 supply. Look at how many games were on both PS3 and PS4. I think there would have been even more if PS3 had been the same x86. That's what we are seeing now with PS4 to PS5 crossgen. Wanting the safety of old install base makes sense, but I wish people would stop saying they have to because PS5 supply constraints. It was a good business idea long before PS5 and it's just easier to do now.
You don't quite get my point, it seems... now disclamier, i'm not trying to get into an argument... you cannot bring sales numbers into account - a-posteriori - because these decisions were made before the PS5 had sold any units at all. They were based on the uncertainty of the pandemic - this caused them to fear that they wouldn't get the game in many player's livingrooms.

13m, even if that's a broken record, it's a farteenth the spread of ps4, so when the pandemic was becoming clear and chip supplies dried up they made the decision to involve the ps4 in the first stages of the next gen, to a greater extent than previous generation transitions (probably because the two consoles are much more closely related than PS2>Ps3, or PS3>PS4), the obvious move to extend the overlap between generations was made.

13m is an amazing achievement considering the chip shortage that is effecting everyone from nvidia to microsoft. I can only imagine that they would have sold 26 millon if everyone who wanted a ps5 could get one. I'd have bought one a year ago if I could. playstation could not have known that they would sell this many consoles. Then there's the scalper problem, how many of the consoles they've sold are actually in livingrooms? i wouldn't be surprised if some huge amount like a quarter of thos 13m are sitting in some wanker's shed waiting to sell for $1k+

I wrote the post you've been quoting a fair while ago. It still makes sense to me. They saw the pandemic, they saw the chip shortage, they decided to ask the developers to work out watered-down versions for one of the most popular consoles ever made, which could technically run them.

There's no mystery to this, I think people who are trying to make a big deal out of it are mean spirited and, pointless, in the end... as am i.
 
If you download it it says 60 fps.
I'll let you in on a little secret.

The video is 60fps, but each frame is actually displayed twice. If you go through the video frame by frame you'll see that the animation only changes every other frame, so yeah, 30fps inside a 60fps package.

Also, this is how 60Hz displays show 30fps content as well. The screen doesn't actually change to 30Hz. It's always 60Hz, but each frame is displayed twice within that 60Hz refresh rate.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
Starfield is my only hope, but Bethesda doesnt have a great track record with graphics. Still, the trailer being completely realtime devoid of any cutscene tools gives me hope.

Wish more devs that started game development in 2017 had targeted next gen specs like Starfield.
Really dude?! Bethesda and their broken ass game with an ancient engine and janky animations are your only hope?!
 
Wait so now you're using the 4k settings, and THOSE look bad?



You're not making any sense.
Actually, you're not making sense. 1080p looks bad on any good 4k tv if you know what to look for aka you have good eye sight.
What's not making sense?

I have a 4K screen. Why would I want to set my system to output at 1080p? Does anyone actually do that on their 4K screens?
He's talking nonsense. I don't believe he's got a good 4k tv because if he did he'd be able to see how much better an actual 4k signal looks on a 4k tv instead of a stretched 1080p one
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
Yep. Prior to yesterday. They were the only ones targeting next gen specs. The trailer they showed at E3 was all realtime and was done without using any cinematic tools. Everything was in game, in engine and realtime.





I don't see anything in that gif that i haven't already seen on Death stranding\battlefront (rocks) and cyberpunk pc (the first person scene) in terms of details.

Maybe the rocks are slightly more detailed but that's it.

I'm more worried about the animations in that game...
 
Praise for games like TLOU2, God of War and RDR2 were exactly what made me hungry for next gen since the lighting in them still stood out as jarringly fake outside of a few sections that the engine can handle well. Nvidia announced their raytracing accelerators at just the right time to give me hope that next gen will be better.

I"m super excited to see games on the level of the UE5 demos and such.

That said I think we are a world away from the examples you used in your OP which are offline rendered with 100x the time and power being used for every single frame..

this


vs



This isn't something that takes a machine that's 10x more powerful than a PS4, we would be lucky to do it on one that's 10x strong than a 3090 I think you underestimate the vast gulf between the two but If you really think the visual difference between them isn't that big I can't disagree with something that subjective. But this may be a case where something you see as a slight improvement like getting hair like that could take atleast an extra PS5 worth of power.

Hopefully, in 4 years I get a game that lets me ecstatically admit I'm wrong, but I feel like it will be a repeat of TLOU2 where everyone says it looks like real life while I'm waiting for next gen.

Luckily there are always stylized games that don't have the issue of aiming for realism and failing, I'll take play BoTW2 in 8k on an emulator over TLOU2 anyday.
Are we still far away lol?
 

EDMIX

Member
Yep. Prior to yesterday. They were the only ones targeting next gen specs. The trailer they showed at E3 was all realtime and was done without using any cinematic tools. Everything was in game, in engine and realtime.





nahhhh look.....I agree that we will see some insane games this gen, but I'd say y ou are wrong on several areas here.

1. "only ones targeting next gen specs" is 100% false, you just watched several next gen only titles come out TARGETING next gen, so factually.....thats a no. MS deciding to wait on next gen only titles didn't mean NO ONE put out next gen only titles, to say "only ones" is simply not true.

2. Nothing being shown in those gifs even feels like "can't be done on PS4, XONE", like....nothing. The Last Of Us 2 and Doom look more next gen then that second gif as I don't know if its just the art direction looking a bit cartoony like Destiny or something or what and the first gif doesn't even hold candle to what DICE was doing with Frostbite last gen, never mind the insane shit they have planned for this gen...LAST GEN, they are not even matching Battlefront 1 with those rocks, not 2...

1 lol





3.....did we really forget Fallout 4? One of the biggest things that kept being cited with that game was how not next gen looking it was and how last gen it looked, dated, old etc Its not saying it looks bad, shit I'M hype myself as Starfield is a day 1 for me, but so was Fallout 4 and I wasn't out here pretending it was the best looking next gen game at that time, I felt is looked good and I love it, but shit man....this isn't an area they are the best in to really be making it sound like anyone should be hype about that aspect of Starfield, I'd argue its worst aspect might really be those graphics and it will make up for it in the narrative, RPG, quest type thing as Elder Scrolls and Fallout did before it and thats ok btw, simply that this is a horrid example lol

They never really made the best looking stuff and thats ok, next gen looking and Bethesda are simply 2 things that are not really in the same sentence unless its like "NOT next gen looking" lol
 
I do not think there is going to big upgrade. The only way possible if devs target no more than 1440P for PS5, SX. Having said that gfx quality is pretty good these days and I think the focus is more on performance.
Lol and you have a matrix pfp… found it funny but yeah…how did your opinion change now after the newest demos…?
 
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ParaSeoul

Member
The Matrix demo only looks photo real in certain shots,most of the time it looks like high end pre rendered cgi which is still impressive for something running real time,looks way too unoptimized for a full game at this point though.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
I don't see anything in that gif that i haven't already seen on Death stranding\battlefront (rocks) and cyberpunk pc (the first person scene) in terms of details.

Maybe the rocks are slightly more detailed but that's it.

I'm more worried about the animations in that game...

Its no worse then the environments in returnal or demon souls remastered.

Also technically it looks pretty similar to something like forspoken, I do prefer the content of starfield though.

This gen is not about huge visual improvements.
I mean what makes a game "current gen" from a visual standpoint?
 
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Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
nahhhh look.....I agree that we will see some insane games this gen, but I'd say y ou are wrong on several areas here.

1. "only ones targeting next gen specs" is 100% false, you just watched several next gen only titles come out TARGETING next gen, so factually.....thats a no. MS deciding to wait on next gen only titles didn't mean NO ONE put out next gen only titles, to say "only ones" is simply not true.

2. Nothing being shown in those gifs even feels like "can't be done on PS4, XONE", like....nothing. The Last Of Us 2 and Doom look more next gen then that second gif as I don't know if its just the art direction looking a bit cartoony like Destiny or something or what and the first gif doesn't even hold candle to what DICE was doing with Frostbite last gen, never mind the insane shit they have planned for this gen...LAST GEN, they are not even matching Battlefront 1 with those rocks, not 2...

1 lol





3.....did we really forget Fallout 4? One of the biggest things that kept being cited with that game was how not next gen looking it was and how last gen it looked, dated, old etc Its not saying it looks bad, shit I'M hype myself as Starfield is a day 1 for me, but so was Fallout 4 and I wasn't out here pretending it was the best looking next gen game at that time, I felt is looked good and I love it, but shit man....this isn't an area they are the best in to really be making it sound like anyone should be hype about that aspect of Starfield, I'd argue its worst aspect might really be those graphics and it will make up for it in the narrative, RPG, quest type thing as Elder Scrolls and Fallout did before it and thats ok btw, simply that this is a horrid example lol

They never really made the best looking stuff and thats ok, next gen looking and Bethesda are simply 2 things that are not really in the same sentence unless its like "NOT next gen looking" lol

Not true, DF state the current gen improvements @ 27.40


So you are factually wrong.

Or u can say what you say about any next gen game.

Also fallout 4 is a good looking game, it has material based lighting, ssr, higher geometry + textures plus a list of other comon graphical features of gen8.
 
Its no worse then the environments in returnal or demon souls remastered.

Also technically it looks pretty similar to something like forspoken, I do prefer the content of starfield though.

This gen is not about huge visual improvements.
I mean what makes a game "current gen" from a visual standpoint?
This gen is actually about big improvements IMO...most engines are cross gen and outdated..UE5 nanite shows the geometrical density of CGI movies in realtime on $500 hardware...give it a few years games will be mind blowing...and it will carry into the next gen. I expect next generation of consoles to be about 40 TFLOPS based on trends...PC cards will be in the 100s of TFLOPS by then...CGI era is here already.

EDIT: Naughty dog made huge strides with TLOU II animation...



 
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Kenpachii

Gold Member
This gen is actually about big improvements IMO...most engines are cross gen and outdated..UE5 nanite shows the geometrical density of CGI movies in realtime on $500 hardware...give it a few years games will be mind blowing...and it will carry into the next gen. I expect next generation of consoles to be about 40 TFLOPS based on trends...PC cards will be in the 100s of TFLOPS by then...CGI era is here already.


Next gen will be around 100tflops most likely

40 tflops is probably what pro refresh will be.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
This gen is actually about big improvements IMO...most engines are cross gen and outdated..UE5 nanite shows the geometrical density of CGI movies in realtime on $500 hardware...give it a few years games will be mind blowing...and it will carry into the next gen. I expect next generation of consoles to be about 40 TFLOPS based on trends...PC cards will be in the 100s of TFLOPS by then...CGI era is here already.

EDIT: Naughty dog made huge strides with TLOU II animation...




There will certainly be some nice improvements but how big an improvement is, is a matter of opinion.
But this gen wont be as transformative in the visual department as we have seen in the past.

The UE5 demo has more polygons thanks to nanite and indirect real time global illumination, but the improvement is subtle because geometry was already decent and pre calculated Gi was not bad either.

Alex from DF acts like indrect Gi is the next coming of christ and while it does simulate how light works, it is still an imitation, which is still pretty far from reality.

I mean its one thing being able to simulate multiple bounces of light, but in terms of how light reacts to different materials still needs a lot of improvement before it looks real. Even cgi movies have a way to go.

Its also funny the amount of praise RT reflections get. I mean how often in the real world do you really care about reflections?


Dont get me wrong im very pleased with the way visuals are going, heck im still pleased with last gen visuals, but theres a lot of hyperbole about the current gen visual improvement.

Im far more interested in NPC and game world behaviour then visuals.
The artificial barriars and limitations of game worlds and NPCs seem really primitive to me.

I remember when Peter molyuex would talk about you could plant a tree in fable and it would grow. The only dev that has pushed in that area are R* where NPC reactions and behaviour is a tad more realistic then games before it.
 

leo-j

Member
nahhhh look.....I agree that we will see some insane games this gen, but I'd say y ou are wrong on several areas here.

1. "only ones targeting next gen specs" is 100% false, you just watched several next gen only titles come out TARGETING next gen, so factually.....thats a no. MS deciding to wait on next gen only titles didn't mean NO ONE put out next gen only titles, to say "only ones" is simply not true.

2. Nothing being shown in those gifs even feels like "can't be done on PS4, XONE", like....nothing. The Last Of Us 2 and Doom look more next gen then that second gif as I don't know if its just the art direction looking a bit cartoony like Destiny or something or what and the first gif doesn't even hold candle to what DICE was doing with Frostbite last gen, never mind the insane shit they have planned for this gen...LAST GEN, they are not even matching Battlefront 1 with those rocks, not 2...

1 lol





3.....did we really forget Fallout 4? One of the biggest things that kept being cited with that game was how not next gen looking it was and how last gen it looked, dated, old etc Its not saying it looks bad, shit I'M hype myself as Starfield is a day 1 for me, but so was Fallout 4 and I wasn't out here pretending it was the best looking next gen game at that time, I felt is looked good and I love it, but shit man....this isn't an area they are the best in to really be making it sound like anyone should be hype about that aspect of Starfield, I'd argue its worst aspect might really be those graphics and it will make up for it in the narrative, RPG, quest type thing as Elder Scrolls and Fallout did before it and thats ok btw, simply that this is a horrid example lol

They never really made the best looking stuff and thats ok, next gen looking and Bethesda are simply 2 things that are not really in the same sentence unless its like "NOT next gen looking" lol
I’m quoting this post because of the gifs. Let me just say that if those visuals in those gifs could be done on a base ps4. A ps5 with nearly 10 times the graphics power and way better ram/SSD and all that should be able to do way better visuals. Ratchet and clank is one of the only games imo to showcase a gen of a visual leap. But yea, Horizon 2 looks good, but it doesn’t look a gen ahead of horizon 1.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
I’m quoting this post because of the gifs. Let me just say that if those visuals in those gifs could be done on a base ps4. A ps5 with nearly 10 times the graphics power and way better ram/SSD and all that should be able to do way better visuals. Ratchet and clank is one of the only games imo to showcase a gen of a visual leap. But yea, Horizon 2 looks good, but it doesn’t look a gen ahead of horizon 1.

This is the thing though a rift apart has

  1. Higher geometry
  2. Higher object density
  3. RT reflections
  4. Higher effect density
  5. Higher res/framerate

So how many of these new visual abilities are necessary for it to be "next gen".

Its not so black and white this time.
Every gens visual improvements can be summed up in a list like this, but this time its less drastic.

I mean one could argue that metro exodus enhanced is more "next gen" then rift apart and they would not be wrong. This is the first time something like this has happened, when an upgraded last gen game can go toe to toe with a current gen exclusive.
 
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Kenpachii

Gold Member
Thats If we get pro refreshes...also...PS5 is 5 to 6x PS4 in FLOPS..

This is currently the rumor for GPU jumps forwards



Hopper is the tier of card u will see in PC when the pro releases, so that's already 100 tflops there as ampere is 35tflops. While AMD will yield a bit behind tflop wise most likely, they will have absolutely 80tflop cards at that time period of the PRO in 2024 or late 2023 which means 40 tflop isn't going to be hard for them to produce for those consoles.

This also gives a good insight on what u can expect for next gen. which will most likely launch either in late 2026 or late 2027 and if its late 2027 u can expect it to get the hardware from 2028. Which are 2 more generations above hopper. However obviously u won't get the max hardware from that generation, but if you look at the 1080ti which launched in 2017, 3 and a half year before the PS5 launched, u can expect 2024 top end spec for PC to be what PS6 will have 3 years later ( or better ). Which is most likely around the 100tflops just with newer architectures.

Why would a 40 tflop console be useful? if the PS4 goes out of the window, the new PS4 is the PS5, people will make games and push the hardware to its limits and resolution + framerate is the first thing to go out of the window, with the PS5 being the base and having 4x the performance, u can expect 4k, higher framerates ( if cpu allows ) and better RT again and maybe DLSS alternative which makes 8k not a issue anymore or even 4k, which means lots of RT stuff can be pushed without problem.

Now this all depends on how the GPU market is going to move forwards, but thanks to mcm we will see huge leaps in tflop gains.
 
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EDMIX

Member
I’m quoting this post because of the gifs. Let me just say that if those visuals in those gifs could be done on a base ps4. A ps5 with nearly 10 times the graphics power and way better ram/SSD and all that should be able to do way better visuals. Ratchet and clank is one of the only games imo to showcase a gen of a visual leap. But yea, Horizon 2 looks good, but it doesn’t look a gen ahead of horizon 1.

It depends on the game as we've seen neither studio on those gifs do a next gen only game yet.

Horizon 2 is a cross gen game, its not next gen only.

Not true, DF state the current gen improvements @ 27.40
smh, he stated "They were the only ones targeting next gen specs." this is factually false, we have several developers that have already fucking made next gen only games. I'm not telling you NO improvements are made, I'm fucking stating THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH NEXT GEN FUCKING GAMES. Read before fucking posting lol dear god.


lol not even going to waste the time replying to rest of that waste. (added to that ignore until you can read a bit better lol)
You argue too much and can't even read smh.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
It depends on the game as we've seen neither studio on those gifs do a next gen only game yet.

Horizon 2 is a cross gen game, its not next gen only.


smh, he stated "They were the only ones targeting next gen specs." this is factually false, we have several developers that have already fucking made next gen only games. I'm not telling you NO improvements are made, I'm fucking stating THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH NEXT GEN FUCKING GAMES. Read before fucking posting lol dear god.


lol not even going to waste the time replying to rest of that waste. (added to that ignore until you can read a bit better lol)
You argue too much and can't even read smh.

Lol, in your number 2 point you said nothing in those starfield gifs cant be done on ps4/x1... Which is what I was obviously replying too..
 
This is the thing though a rift apart has

  1. Higher geometry
  2. Higher object density
  3. RT reflections
  4. Higher effect density
  5. Higher res/framerate

So how many of these new visual abilities are necessary for it to be "next gen".

Its not so black and white this time.
Every gens visual improvements can be summed up in a list like this, but this time its less drastic.

I mean one could argue that metro exodus enhanced is more "next gen" then rift apart and they would not be wrong. This is the first time something like this has happened, when an upgraded last gen game can go toe to toe with a current gen exclusive.
Only because of RT GI a next gen feature thats able to be added to last gen games...Rift Apart looks better in everyway..except global GI...
 
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