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Greenpeace co-founder: ‘no scientific proof’ humans dominant cause of climate change

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Woorloog

Banned
Isn't he technically correct? Human-caused climate change is a popular scientific theory, which means there's a lot of evidence to support it, but it's not scientifically proven.

So it's true, but it's also an irrelevant thing to say. We should still act on the theory to clean up our isht.

Yes and no.
We have a phenomenon, global warming. We have theories that model the phenomenon, and of those, the best one seems to be that humans are the cause, directly and indirectly (most other theories, like sunspots have glaring flaws).
A scientific theory is never exactly proven, as i understand it.

(And scientific law is kind of unrelated, it describes something that happens repeatedly in same way in certain conditions, like Newtons laws, which work in everyday life but are not quite accurate in extreme conditions (at relativistic speeds, 1+1 is not quite 2))
 
I agree that there are dangers to nuclear energy,but we also have to consider that there are energy needs for a growing world population that can't just be met with green energy. We just don't have that type of technology yet to produce enough energy for everyone's energy needs. Nuclear energy is a good alternative to coal plants until that technology or newer ones are created to replace nuclear energy. I'm glad the US is open to building a few more plants.


We have that type of technology, photovoltaics or wind turbines aren't some mysterious technology that we have yet to discover. And there is enough space on this planet to satisfy all of our energy needs with those technologies.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Well, some recent studies are certainly interesting. I'm in no position to know exactly how solid the science is, but I do wonder if the level of warming will be as extreme as climate models have predicted.

There was a study fairly recently that claimed that Antarctic sea ice melting was not due to global warming and in fact that area of the world has seen quite an increase. There was also a study that suggested that there is no evidence to support the hypothesis that global warming causes an increase in atmospheric blocking (that caused the unusually cold winters in the UK). And even more recently. some climate scientists have came out to state that there is no evidence to prove that global warming effected the polar vortex that caused the cold weather in the US quite recently.

I am starting wonder just how much of an effect AGW has on the climate.
 

Famassu

Member
why we still tell this joke ...

speaking of the ozone when did it fall out of favor to the greenhouse effect? I remember when our greatest fear was people using too much aerosol and other pollutants(a/c) that eat away our ozone. And the resulting influx of solar radiation without it would be a glorious blaze of finality for most.

I remember captain planet...i wont use my a/c or hair spray.
It hasn't disappeared anywhere, it just isn't our number one concern anymore with other possible disasters looming in the horizon. And we've already done a lot to stop the effects of the CFCs that were the main cause behind ozone depletion & the polar ozone holes. We don't use CFCs so much anymore so the depletion has slowed down noticeably. Scientists are still monitoring the situation. It's still affecting the Earth in some pretty major ways, but not as badly as it would have had we not done major worldwide policy changes in regards to the substances used that cause it.
 

Woorloog

Banned
People must leave their home forever just 4 fun? I am done

The fuck are you talking about? You're asked where fallout lasts for 40k years, and you post some random charts without explaining them, and then tell they're about restricted zones, which tells us nothing, and does nothing to backup your claims.
 
Isn't he technically correct? Human-caused climate change is a popular scientific theory, which means there's a lot of evidence to support it, but it's not scientifically proven.

So it's true, but it's also an irrelevant thing to say. We should still act on the theory to clean up our isht.

http://ncse.com/evolution/education/definitions-fact-theory-law-scientific-work

See also Theory of Evolution.

I believe there is still a debate how much external factors contribute, but very few credible scientists believe human activity is not a major factor.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Well, some recent studies are certainly interesting. I'm in no position to know exactly how solid the science is, but I do wonder if the level of warming will be as extreme as climate models have predicted.

There was a study fairly recently that claimed that Antarctic sea ice melting was not due to global warming and in fact that area of the world has seen quite an increase. There was also a study that suggest that there is no evidence to support the hypothesis that global warming causes an increase in atmospheric blocking (that caused the unusually cold winters in the UK). And even more recently. some climate scientists have came out to state that there is no evidence to prove that global warming effected the polar vortex that caused the cold weather in the US quite recently.

I am starting wonder just how much of an effect AGW has on the climate.

Why would global warming automatically mean less ice in the antarctic? Or put differently, what about having more sea ice in the antarctic contradicts global warming?
 

Buzzman

Banned

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/27/us-japan-nuclear-uninhabitable-idUSTRE77Q17U20110827

Areas surrounding Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear plant could remain uninhabitable for decades due to high radiation, the government warned on Saturday as it struggles to clean up after the world's worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/27/chernobyl-disaster-anniversary-japan

Scientists say that radiation will affect the Chernobyl area for 48,000 years although it will be safe enough for humans to begin repopulating the area long before then - in about 600 years.

I'm not going to deny that these were catastrophic events that rendered areas dangerous for a massive amount of time, but your assertions are a little over the top.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Why would global warming automatically mean less ice in the antarctic? Or put differently, what about having more sea ice in the antarctic contradicts global warming?

Well, it's not me that made such statements, wasn't it the climate scientists? And didn't they say that global warming effects the polar regions more?
 

Seth C

Member
Wow great, what about the hundreds of millions of refugees who'll be forced to flee due to environmental changes?

That one of the shittiest arguments I've ever heard. Not saying I disagree that humans are a major factor in climate change but damn son.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Well, it's not me that made such statements,wasn't it the climate scientists? And didn't they say that global warming effects the polar regions more?

Did they? That's for you to establish!

Everyone seems to just assume global warming implies every place will get warmer, but it is literally just the average global temperature going up. You can't point to sea ice in antarctica as contradicting global warming any more than you can point to the winter we've experienced in the US as contradicting global warming. It's regional.
 
Wow great, what about the hundreds of millions of refugees who'll be forced to flee due to environmental changes?

I've seen arguments put forward before that the net result is a positive one - awful for those that lose out, great for those that benefit, of whom there are more (up to a certain temperature). The benefits are primarily based around improved agricultural yields to feed a growing population and that far more people die of cold than die of heat in the world.
 
why we still tell this joke ...

speaking of the ozone when did it fall out of favor to the greenhouse effect? I remember when our greatest fear was people using too much aerosol and other pollutants(a/c) that eat away our ozone. And the resulting influx of solar radiation without it would be a glorious blaze of finality for most.

I remember captain planet...i wont use my a/c or hair spray.

We fucking fixed the problem. CFCs were banned and the ozone hole stopped growing.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Did they? That's for you to establish!

Everyone seems to just assume global warming implies every place will get warmer, but it is literally just the average global temperature going up. You can't point to sea ice in antarctica as contradicting global warming any more than you can point to the winter we've experienced in the US as contradicting global warming. It's regional.

Again though, we had all this crap about global warming actually causing the cold weather in the US. Now scientists have came out and said there is no evidence for this.

I'm not saying that. The climate scientists are the ones that stated that global warming effects the polar regions more. They are the regions most effected by global warming.

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/aboutcc/problems/impacts/polar_melting/

I just wonder if these extreme predictions we hear about in the media claimed by one climate scientist or another, are actually exaggerated.
 

Woorloog

Banned
I've seen arguments put forward before that the net result is a positive one - awful for those that lose out, great for those that benefit, of whom there are more (up to a certain temperature). The benefits are primarily based around improved agricultural yields to feed a growing population and that far more people die of cold than die of heat in the world.
Wouldn't increased global average temperature cause more aridity? At least regionally, and possibly accelerate desertification of some areas. Combined with rising sealevel, wouldn't we lose a lot of arable land?
Of course, predicting the exact effects is difficult but i'd expect something from the bad end of the spectrum...
 

Buzzman

Banned
That one of the shittiest arguments I've ever heard. Not saying I disagree that humans are a major factor in climate change but damn son.
Could you explain?

I've seen arguments put forward before that the net result is a positive one - awful for those that lose out, great for those that benefit, of whom there are more (up to a certain temperature). The benefits are primarily based around improved agricultural yields to feed a growing population and that far more people die of cold than die of heat in the world.

Short term pain for long term gain yo

So who's going to be telling Africa and Asia that they'll be fucked over and say "lol not my problem". It's nice to see people here are willing to sacrifice billions. As long as it's not us right?
 
Well, it's not me that made such statements, wasn't it the climate scientists? And didn't they say that global warming effects the polar regions more?

Sea ice extent isn't the same thing as total ice mass and the Antarctic and Artic regions are wildly different geographically.
 

Famassu

Member
Well, it's not me that made such statements, wasn't it the climate scientists? And didn't they say that global warming effects the polar regions more?
Global warming affects regions a bit differently & unevenly. All we can really say is that ON AVERAGE, temperatures are going to rise and ON AVERAGE, the temperatures will rise most near the polar regions (which, in Europe, is the Fennoscandian region) but those aren't necessarily true for all areas on Earth and there might be some unforeseen consequences that might negate some or all of those effects (i.e. some scientists have made some claims that climate change might cause such strong sea currents from Greenland's ice melting that they'd weaken or even completely turn away the Gulf stream, which would mean much colder winters for Northern Europe)
 
I'll just say that there have been cold and warm cycles throughout the planet's history and it's quite possible we might be just coming on to a warming cycle. HOWEVER, even if that's the case, it's progressing much too quickly and far faster than any model would predict. This stuff is supposed to take thousands of years and here we have a significant change in a little over a century.

This guy is a traitor and supports nuclear energy and genetic engineering. He sold his soul for few $$$.

Nuclear power is definitely worth investigating. Yes, there have been some disasters. But you know what? There have also been some oil disasters. Remember the BP oil spill? Yeah, that happens, too and is every bit as damaging when you factor in that burning oil or coal is guaranteed to hurt the environment while nuclear power only has that possibility. And with modern designs, nuclear power plants are safer than they've ever been. And when we get helium-3 plants, they'll be able to provide more power than any standard plant could ever hope to.

GM crops aren't necessary now, but with a growing population, we'll have to resort to them eventually to meet the needs of more people with less arable land. It's important to do the research now so that when it becomes a necessity, we'll be able to avoid disasters such as a homogenous plant population or creating variants that have potent allergens for some people. Also, fun fact. Every single cultivated plant that humans eat is genetically modified. The only difference is that for thousands of years we used slow methods, such as artificially selecting certain strains, or crossing plants with high yields. The only difference now is that we can do it faster since we understand more about how genes work and can come up with more specialized crosses.
 
Did they? That's for you to establish!

Everyone seems to just assume global warming implies every place will get warmer, but it is literally just the average global temperature going up. You can't point to sea ice in antarctica as contradicting global warming any more than you can point to the winter we've experienced in the US as contradicting global warming. It's regional.

Which makes it rather a tricky thing to validate, I'd imagine. It's like... I Don't know much about science, but whenever I go into a GAF thread about dieting, you see a person say that people just need to cut out sugar and they'll lose weight. They'll then post a bunch of links to articles filled with scientific stuff backing up their argument. Another person will say that saturated fat is the problem, whilst another says that actually the amount of fat isn't a problem, that eating fat doesn't make you fat, and that it's calories that matter. Another will say that avoiding carbs will mean you'll lose weight because you're left with meat and vegetables. And so on an so on. They all post links, and I don't have the biological knowledge to know who's right, if any, or how many of them are even mutually exclusive.

I sort of feel the same about climate change sometimes, and the problem is that there's a sort of new-age Bible way of determining that basically everything is a result of climate change, irrespective of what it is. Dry summer, wet summer, hot or cold, freezing or flooding, high or low humidity etc. It seems that whatever weather happens to be occuring where I live, I can find an article that'll explain why it's climate change that's causing it. And when I read the article, I find myself following along, understanding and agreeing. This was hot, it caused that, this melted, that stopped a hot water current which meant less evaporation here, etc etc. But then the next year, when it's the opposite, I see the same articles with the variables changed and again, find myself nodding along and understanding with what's being said. Now, I'm happy to acknowledge that I basically don't know enough about the subject - it's a level of science that I think even our top climate scientists would admit that we, as a species, are still fairly new to, let alone numb nuts like me. But I can see why a lot of people with somewhat less patience than me (or perhaps they're finding their lives made more difficult by legislation intended to curtail climate change) saying "Uhuh, yeah, sure" whenever they hear that today's weather is being caused by climate change. Maybe it is, but as long as it's "regional" and basically entirely unpreditable (the flooding in the UK recently has been worsened by the UK Met Office predicting we'd have a very dry winter. Its been the wettest on record. I appreciate that the weather isn't the climate, but it does suggest the odd hole in the modelling methods, perhaps) I think people are going to struggle to be convinced who aren't already convinced.
 
Which makes it rather a tricky thing to validate, I'd imagine. It's like... I Don't know much about science, but whenever I go into a GAF thread about dieting, you see a person say that people just need to cut out sugar and they'll lose weight. They'll then post a bunch of links to articles filled with scientific stuff backing up their argument. Another person will say that saturated fat is the problem, whilst another says that actually the amount of fat isn't a problem, that eating fat doesn't make you fat, and that it's calories that matter. Another will say that avoiding carbs will mean you'll lose weight because you're left with meat and vegetables. And so on an so on. They all post links, and I don't have the biological knowledge to know who's right, if any, or how many of them are even mutually exclusive.

I sort of feel the same about climate change sometimes, and the problem is that there's a sort of new-age Bible way of determining that basically everything is a result of climate change, irrespective of what it is. Dry summer, wet summer, hot or cold, freezing or flooding, high or low humidity etc. It seems that whatever weather happens to be occuring where I live, I can find an article that'll explain why it's climate change that's causing it. And when I read the article, I find myself following along, understanding and agreeing. This was hot, it caused that, this melted, that stopped a hot water current which meant less evaporation here, etc etc. But then the next year, when it's the opposite, I see the same articles with the variables changed and again, find myself nodding along and understanding with what's being said. Now, I'm happy to acknowledge that I basically don't know enough about the subject - it's a level of science that I think even our top climate scientists would admit that we, as a species, are still fairly new to, let alone numb nuts like me. But I can see why a lot of people with somewhat less patience than me (or perhaps they're finding their lives made more difficult by legislation intended to curtail climate change) saying "Uhuh, yeah, sure" whenever they hear that today's weather is being caused by climate change. Maybe it is, but as long as it's "regional" and basically entirely unpreditable (the flooding in the UK recently has been worsened by the UK Met Office predicting we'd have a very dry winter. Its been the wettest on record. I appreciate that the weather isn't the climate, but it does suggest the odd hole in the modelling methods, perhaps) I think people are going to struggle to be convinced who aren't already convinced.

And this is why critical thinking skills should be taught in grade school as an independent subject before people even start taking science classes.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Again though, we had all this crap about global warming actually causing the cold weather in the US. Now scientists have came out and said there is no evidence for this.

I'm not saying that. The climate scientists are the ones that stated that global warming effects the polar regions more. They are the regions most effected by global warming.

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/aboutcc/problems/impacts/polar_melting/

I just wonder if these extreme predictions we hear about in the media claimed by one climate scientist or another, are actually exaggerated.

That article mostly discusses the arctic. It's important to note the difference between the arctic and antarctic as far as sea ice goes: it's seasonal in the antarctic. It's also true that the while antarctic may be gaining sea ice each year, it is losing land ice(which is what contributes to sea level rise, mostly). It's also true that the antarctic region is seeing warming which actually outpaces the global average, and the sea ice increases despite this due to other factors besides temperature.

It's always important to distinguish between what climate scientists say and what people talking about the climate on TV or on the radio say.
 

Famassu

Member
Wouldn't increased global average temperature cause more aridity? At least regionally, and possibly accelerate desertification of some areas. Combined with rising sealevel, wouldn't we lose a lot of arable land?
Of course, predicting the exact effects is difficult but i'd expect something from the bad end of the spectrum...
Yes, and there's proof that some lakes and rivers have completely dried up in subarctic regions due to the climate having been just a couple of degrees (celcius) warmer than they are now. Subarctic regions, in general, have low precipitation. Climate change could increase evaporation, cause stronger winds (which would in turn increase evaporation even more) and affect precipitation as well, leading to lots of subarctic lakes & rivers to dry up. Just because some cold areas might get a bit warmer on average, it doesn't mean it's just 1-2 months more partying in slightly warmer weather. It can have really negative consequences to a lot of things
 
Could you explain?





So who's going to be telling Africa and Asia that they'll be fucked over and say "lol not my problem". It's nice to see people here are willing to sacrifice billions. As long as it's not us right?

You quoted me and said "people here" - I was simply clarifying an argument I've seen. It's not one I care for particularly but I also don't find it unbelievable. I don't really understand your argument - That because it negative affects some people, the benefits to others don't exist? I Don't think anyone would put forth the argument that it's fair, simply that it'll happening (by their hypothesis). I also don't think it's all about Africa and Asia, and not "Us". Big chunks of Europe (where I;m from) would be badly affected by rising sea levels, and the more arid areas would find they were getting more rain than before, allowing the growth in agriculture there that's not been the case for some time. An example pointed to is how much smaller the Sahara desert used to be (with the previously non-desert areas being fertile and lush before). Indeed, there are already areas of the Sahara with more grazing lands than before, especially in the West, due to increased rainfall.
 
And this is why critical thinking skills should be taught in grade school as an independent subject before people even start taking science classes.

I;m not sure I understand - are you arguing that I lack critical thinking skills? I'm not sure I do. Like I said, I read and understanding (and find myself agreeing with) various arguments explaining the causes. But when I find two contrasting explanations, or - in two separate years in the same place, articles explaining why two opposite weather patterns are both systemic results of climate change - I simply don't have the scientific expertise to decide if one is right, if both, if neither etc. Would you be confident in saying that you do?
 

Famassu

Member
I'll just say that there have been cold and warm cycles throughout the planet's history and it's quite possible we might be just coming on to a warming cycle. HOWEVER, even if that's the case, it's progressing much too quickly and far faster than any model would predict. This stuff is supposed to take thousands of years and here we have a significant change in a little over a century.
AFAIK we are supposed to go towards another Ice Age next (in the next who knows how many hundreds or thousands of years), not a warmer part of the cycle. That's even used as an excuse by some people to not give a shit about climate change. Because if it's going to get colder in the relatively close future, then why does it matter that we are currently making the climate slightly warmer?
 

Woorloog

Banned
AFAIK we are supposed to go towards another Ice Age next (in the next who knows how many hundreds or thousands of years), not a warmer part of the cycle. That's even used as an excuse by some people to not give a shit about climate change. Because if it's going to get colder in the relatively close future, then why does it matter that we are currently making the climate slightly warmer?

Har har, planet's near future is kind of different timescale than what is near future for humans. Not that fools realize it.
 

Buzzman

Banned
An example pointed to is how much smaller the Sahara desert used to be (with the previously non-desert areas being fertile and lush before). Indeed, there are already areas of the Sahara with more grazing lands than before, especially in the West, due to increased rainfall.

You do realise that the Sahara has been growing every year right?

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/impacts-adaptation/international.html
Areas that are already affected by drought, such as Australia and the Sahel in Africa, will likely experience reductions in water available for irrigation.

The greatest decreases in crop yields will likely occur in dry and tropical regions. In some African countries, for example, yields from rain-fed agriculture in drought years could decline by as much as 50% by 2020. This decline will likely be exacerbated by climate change.

Semi-arid and arid areas (such as the Mediterranean, southern Africa, and northeastern Brazil) are particularly vulnerable to the impacts of climate change on water supply. Over the next century, these areas will likely experience decreases in water resources, especially in areas that are already water-stressed due to droughts, population pressures, and water resource extraction.
 
I;m not sure I understand - are you arguing that I lack critical thinking skills? I'm not sure I do. Like I said, I read and understanding (and find myself agreeing with) various arguments explaining the causes. But when I find two contrasting explanations, or - in two separate years in the same place, articles explaining why two opposite weather patterns are both systemic results of climate change - I simply don't have the scientific expertise to decide if one is right, if both, if neither etc. Would you be confident in saying that you do?

For the nuances, no, but for the general theory, yes. Our knowledge of basic chemistry demands that ACC be true, otherwise we're basically back to astrology and alchemy.

Google search co2 bond vibration.
 
AFAIK we are supposed to go towards another Ice Age next (in the next who knows how many hundreds or thousands of years), not a warmer part of the cycle. That's even used as an excuse by some people to not give a shit about climate change. Because if it's going to get colder in the relatively close future, then why does it matter that we are currently making the climate slightly warmer?

I've heard that as well, that it's possible that the increase in temperature we're seeing now and the glacial shrinkage might decrease the salinity of the oceans and allow them to freeze at higher temperatures. Which could lead to an ice age.

I'm not a climate scientist, so I can't really say which one is more likely, but either option isn't that great. And in any case, a world with lower emissions is probably a world better for everyone. I highly doubt that at any point in the future we'll all be sitting around wishing we'd burned more fossil fuels.

Hell, if we have an ice age, nuclear reactors might be even more in demand given how much power they can provide and how easy cooling them would be.
 

danwarb

Member
Global temperature and even major climate change models are easy, next to weather prediction. For obvious reasons.
 
Well, it's not that there hasn't been a large amount of melting in Antartica it's just that a recent study stated that global warming wasn't causing it.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/0...ded_just_not_much_affected_by_global_warming/

And summer sea ice levels this year were pretty high.

Pretty high compared to record breaking melts, and still below average. Antarctica has a much much much stronger polar vortex than the Arctic. It better not be warming as fast as the Arctic or we would be super fucked.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Pretty high compared to record breaking melts, and still below average. Antarctica has a much much much stronger polar vortex than the Arctic. It better not be warming as fast as the Arctic or we would be super fucked.

Again though, it was the climate scientists that suggested it was.

Many researchers had suggested that this was due to human-driven global warming, which appeared to be taking place rapidly at that time (though it has since gone on hold for 15 years or so, a circumstance which science is still assimilating)
 
I've heard that as well, that it's possible that the increase in temperature we're seeing now and the glacial shrinkage might decrease the salinity of the oceans and allow them to freeze at higher temperatures. Which could lead to an ice age.

I'm not a climate scientist, so I can't really say which one is more likely, but either option isn't that great. And in any case, a world with lower emissions is probably a world better for everyone. I highly doubt that at any point in the future we'll all be sitting around wishing we'd burned more fossil fuels.

Hell, if we have an ice age, nuclear reactors might be even more in demand given how much power they can provide and how easy cooling them would be.

You're talking about what if scenarios that were written way back when that no one takes seriously any more. It gets dredged up occasionally by denialists to introduce FUD. Also, science isn't a monolithic institution. You'll have the occasional climatologist denying everything, but you'll notice that their expertise is incredibly narrow and/or they're a quack that no one has taken seriously in the last few decades.
 
Again though, it was the climate scientists that suggested it was.

You're confusing the Arctic and Antarctic along with conflating the statement of the ocean around Antarctica not warming steadily and uniformly with not warming at all. These are all very different things.
 

Phoenix

Member
A co-founder of Greenpeace told a Senate panel on Tuesday that there is no scientific evidence to back claims that humans are the “dominant cause” of climate change.
...

“Today, we live in an unusually cold period in the history of life on earth and there is no reason to believe that a warmer climate would be anything but beneficial for humans and the majority of other species.

He makes a faulty logical argument here. It is irrelevant if a warmer climate would be more beneficial or not. The topic of discussion is whether or not humans are the reason for climate change. If they are NOT the dominant reason for climate change, there should be some other possible assertions for what it.
 
I don't mean to come across as a dick but a lot of what's going on now is people picking areas where climatologists are arguing over relatively minor details of ACC and going, "well, clearly if they're arguing about this, then they must not agree that ACC is happening, therefore ACC is false."

It's like watching economists bicker over the great recession and declaring it didn't happen.
 

leadbelly

Banned
You're confusing the Arctic and Antarctic along with conflating the statement of the ocean around Antarctica not warming steadily and uniformly with not warming at all. These are all very different things.

I'm not confusing anything.

A larger quote:

The Pine Island Glacier in West Antarctica and its associated sea ice shelf is closely watched: this is because unlike most of the sea ice around the austral continent, its melt rate has seemed to be accelerating quickly since scientists first began seriously studying it in the 1990s

Many researchers had suggested that this was due to human-driven global warming, which appeared to be taking place rapidly at that time (though it has since gone on hold for 15 years or so, a circumstance which science is still assimilating).
 
I'm not confusing anything.

A larger quote:

"We found ocean melting of the glacier was the lowest ever recorded, and less than half of that observed in 2010. This enormous, and unexpected, variability contradicts the widespread view that a simple and steady ocean warming in the region is eroding the West Antarctic Ice Sheet."

Still warming, still melting, just that most of the melt might not be caused by rising temperature.
 
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