Grim Dawn |OT| It's always grimmest at dawn.

Jun 4, 2012
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Loving the new selection of enemies.

Aetherial Vanguard are fun to fight, cthonian got a bunch of tough new enemies. Most of the beasts are good too. Except the plantlife. But the poor old undead. They're only in like two small areas and they still coming with the same selection of ghosts and skellies.

really liking elite. And like I predicted and someone said, vanilla elite is much easier than normal ashes...

...I fear eltie ashes ;_;
It's not bad, but you need to be prepared. I stopped my infiltrator run at the end of regular ultimate at 89, because I felt I needed some gear. Shit was still dying fast but I started to have the occasional death. So I grabbed my bleed conjurer (no summons) and melted ult ashes. Well I'm just before the last guy now. Died a couple of times, but it's been pretty damn fun. Just managed to secure the docks without dying at least, and that gets pretty crazy
 
Aug 24, 2013
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trying dual elemental pistol Purifier

It was somewhat rough at the start, but after putting 2 points in all the skills that activate off fire strike it is starting to destroy things. The devotion skill that constantly activates an aoe storm that debuffs elemental resistance made a huge difference too. Pistols that convert physical to elemental and have faster attack speed have a massive tooltip dps difference from all the others for my build too.
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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so made some changes to my build, not so much for right now (vanill elite is going fine) but more thinking ahead. I think I settled on this:

http://www.grimtools.com/calc/d2jBX6q2

The big thing compared to before is I dropped Call of the Grave, its a great buff for those 10 seconds, but with a 24sec cd im usually trying to save it for elites, and as the old saying goes, you cant dps if youre dead. With that said, I put points into Occultist from 15 (for hellhound and dreeg) to 32 for the dreeg upgrade, which hopefully is a big survivability buff for the pets later one (like those fucking Ashes plants), and it also buffs damage if im reading it correctly, which hopefully offsets losing Call of the Grave a bit.

Pet augments mostly get 1 pointers except the skeleton number increase one obviously. Golem augments mostly for the extra threat, 1 point in the hellhound aura since it affects all the pets and its "free" extra damage for 1 point, same for the bird's aura and stun.

I wouldnt get the bird heal (I already have a ton of healing from dreeg) or the hellhound meber clw, because its a threat talent and i want my threat on the golem lol.

Last points go on Bonds of Bysmael just cause why not, extra health for the pets for when elite and especially legendary get hairy.

Thoughts? I probably dont need to max out most stuff because of diminishing returns and/or eventual points from gear filling those gaps, so I can probably switch some points around.
 
Jun 14, 2013
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So, one thing that stands out: you don't use Bone Harvest?

It's seems so strong to me. It's my only way to deal direct damage plus it slows enemies and buffs my summons.
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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So, one thing that stands out: you don't use Bone Harvest?

It's seems so strong to me. It's my only way to deal direct damage plus it slows enemies and buffs my summons.
I was using it at one point for the pet buff, but the range is so short I wa always putting myself in positions I did not want to put myself in. It felt super awkward to use.

my only nuke is the wraith since it does a lot of dmg AND leaves a dot, so i dont wait until the wraith is gone to use it again. otherwise im spamming CoF on every mob to proc the sheppard dmg buff from devotions, and also using dreg as needed / on cd. The pets do all the work.
 
Jan 6, 2014
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How do y'all balance your physique vs. cunning vs. spirit points?

As a Death Knight. I've just been pumping most of it into physique, for heavy armour and twohanders, with about half in spirit for my dark, Necromancer-y powers. But with my reliance on twohanded weapons, it's ocurred to me that increasing cunning for better offensive ability might be a good idea.
So, one thing that stands out: you don't use Bone Harvest?

It's seems so strong to me. It's my only way to deal direct damage plus it slows enemies and buffs my summons.
I don't have a perfect build or anything but it works very well. As a Death Knight with blitz, using two-handed weapons, there's plenty of opportunities to use it. I get mobbed all the time.
 

Rhaknar

The Steam equivalent of the drunk friend who keeps offering to pay your tab all night.
Dec 20, 2013
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How do y'all balance your physique vs. cunning vs. spirit points?

As a Death Knight. I've just been pumping most of it into physique, for heavy armour and twohanders, with about half in spirit for my dark, Necromancer-y powers. But with my reliance on twohanded weapons, it's ocurred to me that increasing cunning for better offensive ability might be a good idea.


I don't have a perfect build or anything but it works very well. As a Death Knight with blitz, using two-handed weapons, there's plenty of opportunities to use it. I get mobbed all the time.
yeah youre melee so thats fine. Im very glass cannon so im always running away, and having to get in close every 3 seconds or whatever bone harvest is was super awkward for me.

also i have no fucking idea how the stats work. Ive been pumping mostly into spirit because "durr im a caster" with some physical for health also. like 25/75 split /shrug
 
Jun 14, 2013
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also i have no fucking idea how the stats work. Ive been pumping mostly into spirit because "durr im a caster" with some physical for health also. like 25/75 split /shrug
This may be the difference. I went almost all Physique with my Cabalist.

In fact, I put eight points in Spirit that I'd probably take back.

I've gotten plenty enough Spirit from my masteries and haven't run into equipment requirement issues.
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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This may be the difference. I went almost all Physique with my Cabalist.

In fact, I put eight points in Spirit that I'd probably take back.

I've gotten plenty enough Spirit from my masteries and haven't run into equipment requirement issues.
...welp :/

Did I fuck up then? Is this a "reroll your character" thing? Do pets get dmg from Physique or something?
 
Jan 6, 2014
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One more question: is there an easy way to remember what the different sections of the Constellation are for? Like the East seems to have a lot of "assassin"-oriented skills.

I have a heck of a time figuring out where to go, even with grimtools.
...welp :/

Did I fuck up then? Is this a "reroll your character" thing? Do pets get dmg from Physique or something?
The skill will mention what pets scale from. (Player bonuses or pet bonuses.) It is a very important consideration when gearing and skilling up.
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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all the pet skills scale from pet dmg which is all im gearing for. I think the dmg component of wraith is aether dmg or something so i assume that scales off spirit, not phisique >_>
 
Jan 6, 2014
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Thinking about it more, constellation and items have the most dramatic effect on damage (plus the skill's level), I guess. You'll occasionally see +100% fire damage on an off-hand, or a Constellation spot that boosts physical damage by +40%, for instance.

For comparison, each spirit point is like +0.5% damage. Which adds up, but yeah.
 
Jun 4, 2012
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so made some changes to my build, not so much for right now (vanill elite is going fine) but more thinking ahead. I think I settled on this:

http://www.grimtools.com/calc/d2jBX6q2

The big thing compared to before is I dropped Call of the Grave, its a great buff for those 10 seconds, but with a 24sec cd im usually trying to save it for elites, and as the old saying goes, you cant dps if youre dead. With that said, I put points into Occultist from 15 (for hellhound and dreeg) to 32 for the dreeg upgrade, which hopefully is a big survivability buff for the pets later one (like those fucking Ashes plants), and it also buffs damage if im reading it correctly, which hopefully offsets losing Call of the Grave a bit.

Pet augments mostly get 1 pointers except the skeleton number increase one obviously. Golem augments mostly for the extra threat, 1 point in the hellhound aura since it affects all the pets and its "free" extra damage for 1 point, same for the bird's aura and stun.

I wouldnt get the bird heal (I already have a ton of healing from dreeg) or the hellhound meber clw, because its a threat talent and i want my threat on the golem lol.

Last points go on Bonds of Bysmael just cause why not, extra health for the pets for when elite and especially legendary get hairy.

Thoughts? I probably dont need to max out most stuff because of diminishing returns and/or eventual points from gear filling those gaps, so I can probably switch some points around.
Prob can't help too much here, cos I have no experience with necro yet. You have the staple occultist stuff though. I thought I might be able to help with gearing but, he's pretty nekid.

How do y'all balance your physique vs. cunning vs. spirit points?

As a Death Knight. I've just been pumping most of it into physique, for heavy armour and twohanders, with about half in spirit for my dark, Necromancer-y powers. But with my reliance on twohanded weapons, it's ocurred to me that increasing cunning for better offensive ability might be a good idea.


I don't have a perfect build or anything but it works very well. As a Death Knight with blitz, using two-handed weapons, there's plenty of opportunities to use it. I get mobbed all the time.
95% of the time, all physique is the way to go. Sometimes you may need points for in cunning or spiriit for gear. It's worth saving a few just in case.

Also, as of the expac, screwing that up is no biggie anymore, cos you can refund them. Mastery bar points too. Yay

Also also, from what I'm hearing, Death Knights aren't too well supported right now. Not alot of gear support, and the synergy between the classes, prob isn't the strongest to begin with. I'm sure it'll still do ok, but there's alot of stronger options out there

yeah youre melee so thats fine. Im very glass cannon so im always running away, and having to get in close every 3 seconds or whatever bone harvest is was super awkward for me.

also i have no fucking idea how the stats work. Ive been pumping mostly into spirit because "durr im a caster" with some physical for health also. like 25/75 split /shrug
Physique = Health and DA. Both valuable.
Cunning = OA, buffs physical damage types
Spirit = Energy regen, buffs elemenatal damage

The thing with the cunning and spirit is the buffs are so small it's not really worth it, with all the damage available elsewhere. OA is nice, but easier to get then DA, and energy regen, is really only needed for a few energy hungry builds like aether ray.

So physique all the way

One more question: is there an easy way to remember what the different sections of the Constellation are for? Like the East seems to have a lot of "assassin"-oriented skills.

I have a heck of a time figuring out where to go, even with grimtools.


The skill will mention what pets scale from. (Player bonuses or pet bonuses.) It is a very important consideration when gearing and skilling up.
Not really. They're split into the colors which are meant to represent different themes but thats about it. And just because the constealltions are near each other doesn't always mean they will be similar.

Trial and error, and again refunding them is pretty easy and cheap
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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welp made a new character, Shaman / Necro, really liking that 2handed lighting strike and the briar pet looks dope, so might do a more melee focused zoo build, especilly since shaman has a big pet at 50 (which I didnt know about, I thought only occultist had 2 pets before). Cant stop, wont stop.

 
Jun 4, 2012
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welp made a new character, Shaman / Necro, really liking that 2handed lighting strike and the briar pet looks dope, so might do a more melee focused zoo build, especilly since shaman has a big pet at 50 (which I didnt know about, I thought only occultist had 2 pets before). Cant stop, wont stop.
Primal spirit is a super strong summon, but you can't have it out all the time. There's some new gear though that helps with that, that I've seen, so I'm wondering with enough CDR and gear, you might be able to run it with 100% uptime. Or at least close.
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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Primal spirit is a super strong summon, but you can't have it out all the time. There's some new gear though that helps with that, that I've seen, so I'm wondering with enough CDR and gear, you might be able to run it with 100% uptime. Or at least close.
what the fuck youre right, I misread it, it only lasts 20 secs... fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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back to my cabalist, melee isnt my thing as much as that lighting strike looks cool. And I have PTSD with those poison plants in ashes, I cant imagine that shit as melee.

Edit: messing around with a calculator, I can't make a shaman per build to suit my liking at all, but a solo shaman no-pet melee build with a bunch of tanky talents and those whirlwind (scale with player dmg not pet and with the augment they last 24 secs, that's a long time of aoe) actually sounds super appealing.

You don't HAVE to use 2 classes right?
 
Jun 4, 2012
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And my infiltrator just ran into the beast nemesis.



back to my cabalist, melee isnt my thing as much as that lighting strike looks cool. And I have PTSD with those poison plants in ashes, I cant imagine that shit as melee.

Edit: messing around with a calculator, I can't make a shaman per build to suit my liking at all, but a solo shaman no-pet melee build with a bunch of tanky talents and those whirlwind (scale with player dmg not pet and with the augment they last 24 secs, that's a long time of aoe) actually sounds super appealing.

You don't HAVE to use 2 classes right?
You really should. You miss out on a tonne of health, OA, DA physique, cunning and spirit from not investing in a second mastery bar. Plus the games sort of designed around finding synergys between classes. It'll work to a point, but by ultimate your gunna start to feel it

If you want that sort of build, you may as well try a warder. At least up until the expac it was the tankiest class by far. Soldier has a bunch of stuff that help with tanking, plus a great utility skill in blitz, that can also do some good damage with some investment. Or elementalist is pretty good too. Demo has plenty of lightening support if you wanted to go that way
 
Jul 30, 2010
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Something like this and this would give you 9 seconds off the 40. I'm not good at mathes but making up the other 11 seconds wouldn't be too hard with CDR.
There's also this and the higher level variants, though you probably need a really good roll to make it viable for lategame.

You don't HAVE to use 2 classes right?
Your stats (health in particular) will really suffer if you only pick one
 
Jun 4, 2012
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There's also this and the higher level variants, though you porbably need a really good roll to make it viable for lategame.


Your stats (health in particular) will really suffer if you only pick one
I hadn't really thought too much about about a ritualist but seeing that sort of stuff makes me think. Also the items that give you an extra Briarthorn sounds like it'd be fun. Perma Primal spirit with reap spirit plus a couple of Briathorns and some blight fiends. Maybe find a way to work the yeti in too. That'd be a tanky crew
 
May 4, 2014
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If you go pet cabalist you kinda want 50/50 or you need Mogdrogen as a constellation, because you need total speed on pet somewhere(so 50occultist for Bysmiel bond upgrade, or Mogdrogen constellation, if you use bysmiel bond, you can then use a stronger constellation instead like Dying God). You can probably do less though depending on the build and stuff. Also some builds have been going for both, that works too, Cabalist summoner isn't too point hungry, you kinda just need to max CoF+Vuln(but it's only 10pt each, less if you have +skills), skeleton stuff and the 2 pet buff on hound/crow, almost everything else works fine with only 1pt.

50/50 works or not depending on your spec and stuff, some specs do fine with few skills maxed(like Cabalist summoner doesn't max a whole lot of stuff) but others you can't afford it.

Some builds you'll go pretty low investment in your secondary class too. Like you'll put most of your points in one class, but then you'll want to put say 20pts in mastery in another for a few stats and then max one passive and maybe take a couple of 1pt for utility. That's why there's not really any single class build, there isn't really a class that needs to invest that many points without wasting them anyway and then you might as well grab some defensive stuff or whatever from another class. But you can definitely do it early on. Like say until elite, or even possibly until ultimate depending on your build, you could do single class, but eventually you'll pick another.


For the attribute issue and physique etc, you get full respec potions doing quests in the expansion areas. Iirc you get one pretty early on, in the Coven of Ugdenbog town thing(basically first town you hit, one of the sidequests there). So you can just fix it later, generally you want a bit of spirit to equip gear and everything else in physique for a pet build. Or for most builds really, you'll generally spread 70/30 or more with physique/other stats, because you really need the hp, and the other stats aren't really that potent for damage. You also generally get most of your cunning/spirit from your related masteries(like if you're cabalist, both masteries give a ton of spirit per point that's why you end up not needing much).
 
Jun 4, 2012
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^ Truth

On the skill point issue, I went 50/50 on my infiltrator. The plan was for 50/32, but by level 70 odd, I had all the points I needed in inquisitor skills, so I said fuck it, and maxed nightblade. Ended up just chucking 1 point in blade spirit cos I went all that way. I needed another active skill to proc devotions anyway, so it does a nice job of that at least. I've just got him to the end of ultimate Ashes at level 98, and he's really starting to boogie now. Can straight up tank most stuff.

But really, it's often just a case of looking at what skills unlock at what level, and just going to that. Sometimes it's 50/32, sometimes it's 50/40 or 50/50. And again, it's easy to fix now if you go too far, which you couldn't pre-ashes
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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remade the shaman as just shaman so far as I was not too far into the shaman/necro, only so I can have the second class free in the future to see what matches the build Im using (probably soldier like someone said.

Man im having so much fun, its like im playing Thor. I think ill just have fun with it and not worry about ashes poison mobs or elite content or any of that shit.

My only nitpick so far, its hard to keep track of your whirlwinds, there should be a counter, like the skeleton buff counter for necros that shows how many are up :(

^ Truth

On the skill point issue, I went 50/50 on my infiltrator. The plan was for 50/32, but by level 70 odd, I had all the points I needed in inquisitor skills, so I said fuck it, and maxed nightblade. Ended up just chucking 1 point in blade spirit cos I went all that way. I needed another active skill to proc devotions anyway, so it does a nice job of that at least. I've just got him to the end of ultimate Ashes at level 98, and he's really starting to boogie now. Can straight up tank most stuff.

But really, it's often just a case of looking at what skills unlock at what level, and just going to that. Sometimes it's 50/32, sometimes it's 50/40 or 50/50. And again, it's easy to fix now if you go too far, which you couldn't pre-ashes
you guys say that but i have no idea what doesnt need max poitns :(

I said it before my im totally ocd with that type of shit, going back to wow (back when it had a similar talent system)
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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cant use legendary necro gloves because I dont have enough phisique, even with components boosting it... ffs.

wru trainer to change my stats. No, seriously, its annoying me now how much spirit I have for nothing, its a dead stat.

Also, I might give these mods for faster lvling and shit a look, that certainly would help other toons. Running these same acts over and over again is kinda getting old lol. Then again you can only use them in "custom mode" which feels like...its not the real thing or something lol.

edit: welp this is a fantastic little mod if you want to speed stuff up. It has faster leveling and more skill / stats / devotion points per level. Basically you can get to your ideal spec faster. Or, which ive noticed, its also a fantastic way to try out classes, because since you level much faster and get more skill points, you can have a much better idea if the class is to your liking by trying out more skills and shit much sooner. Cool stuff.

it also seems to be the only mod updated recently for ashes.
 
Aug 24, 2013
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The Great Northwest
cant use legendary necro gloves because I dont have enough phisique, even with components boosting it... ffs.

wru trainer to change my stats. No, seriously, its annoying me now how much spirit I have for nothing, its a dead stat.

Also, I might give these mods for faster lvling and shit a look, that certainly would help other toons. Running these same acts over and over again is kinda getting old lol. Then again you can only use them in "custom mode" which feels like...its not the real thing or something lol.
I really like the mods that increase hero/boss spawns and level scaling. The combination increases leveling speed a ton.
 
Nov 22, 2016
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really liking elite. And like I predicted and someone said, vanilla elite is much easier than normal ashes...

...I fear eltie ashes ;_;
Ultimate should be a ton of fun

I'm playing Apostate and its legit broken, jesus. Almost as good as the Time warp + doom bolt spam pre nerf in terms of dps. Like, bosses are doing their "animation of introduction" and they re almost dead at the end of it lul
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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Ultimate should be a ton of fun

I'm playing Apostate and its legit broken, jesus. Almost as good as the Time warp + doom bolt spam pre nerf in terms of dps. Like, bosses are doing their "animation of introduction" and they re almost dead at the end of it lul
whats apostate?

edit: went back to 50 necro / 32 occultist, and also back to Bone Harvest for Soul Harvest. You just need to be careful weaving it in and out (well, in my case cause I got fuck all phisique), the pet dmg bonus is actually more than Manipulation on Occultist (65% vs 60%), and you can have it up 100% aswell, aslong as you keep hitting that bone harvest of course. That frees up 18 points that you can then freely use anyware, pump some points into occultist pets, or on the wraith, or whatever.

Unless the idea (well... "idea") is to have both Soul Harvest AND Manipulation, and then have all the pets as 1 pointers or something, and thats just yucky :(
 
Jun 4, 2012
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cant use legendary necro gloves because I dont have enough phisique, even with components boosting it... ffs.

wru trainer to change my stats. No, seriously, its annoying me now how much spirit I have for nothing, its a dead stat.

Also, I might give these mods for faster lvling and shit a look, that certainly would help other toons. Running these same acts over and over again is kinda getting old lol. Then again you can only use them in "custom mode" which feels like...its not the real thing or something lol.

edit: welp this is a fantastic little mod if you want to speed stuff up. It has faster leveling and more skill / stats / devotion points per level. Basically you can get to your ideal spec faster. Or, which ive noticed, its also a fantastic way to try out classes, because since you level much faster and get more skill points, you can have a much better idea if the class is to your liking by trying out more skills and shit much sooner. Cool stuff.

it also seems to be the only mod updated recently for ashes.
Ummm. There's a tonic of reshaping you can get that resets attribute points that was added in the expansion. You get one for doing the first side quest in ashes so you should have one. Don't need a mod for it anymore

Ultimate should be a ton of fun

I'm playing Apostate and its legit broken, jesus. Almost as good as the Time warp + doom bolt spam pre nerf in terms of dps. Like, bosses are doing their "animation of introduction" and they re almost dead at the end of it lul
I felt a little the same with my infiltrator for most of the regular game. Mines were one-shotting alot of bosses. But ashes, especially ultimate, is a proper test even if you feel OP as fuck. My bleed conjurer who I've taken through it now as well, who never died in the regular campaign, even against things like Mad Queen, had a few deaths going through it.

Ultimate at least really feels like it's balanced around having alot of the new mythical gear. I'm ok with that

Inquisitor/Necro
 

Rhaknar

The Steam equivalent of the drunk friend who keeps offering to pay your tab all night.
Dec 20, 2013
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Ummm. There's a tonic of reshaping you can get that resets attribute points that was added in the expansion. You get one for doing the first side quest in ashes so you should have one. Don't need a mod for it anymore
shut the fuck up... really? thats what it was? let me check my stash.

also to my previous point, now that I think about it, going full hog on the pet dmg talents, and also getting max points in bonds of bysmael and dreeg so it compesates for their lack of health for being 1 pointers might actually not be a bad idea hmm.

no wait that doesnt work, then you get shitty skeletons and not the monster mages and revenants and shit.
 
Nov 20, 2007
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Ultimate should be a ton of fun

I'm playing Apostate and its legit broken, jesus. Almost as good as the Time warp + doom bolt spam pre nerf in terms of dps. Like, bosses are doing their "animation of introduction" and they re almost dead at the end of it lul
I was thinking of doing an Apostate soon. What did you do for it? Dual wield gun with necro procs?
 

Rhaknar

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Dec 20, 2013
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fucking around with the calculator, all the specs I come up with with my 2hander Shaman have like... 2 skills lol.

It always comes down to that lightning strike thing, and the whirlwinds (which can get elemental debuff which is nice).oh and the blood pact totem I guess.

Rest are either toggles or various dps or survivability passives. If I pair him with Soldier, I would use Cadance which replaces the default attack so it doesnt really count as a skill (and even if I didnt, Im using the shaman version right now which also doesnt really count as a skill, its just your auto attack).

edit: I guess soldier gets a Charge, thats cool.
 
Jun 4, 2012
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I think i'll jump in and check out some nercromancer stuff. Thinking of doing a melee spellbinder. I've kinda wanted to try melee aether for a while, but it's been hard to make with arcanist being the only source of aether damage, and them not being too suited for melee.

I'll use spectral binding and its on add on for flat aether, siphon souls with the aether toggle for some damage and lifesteal, and ravenous earth for resist reduction. From arcanist I'll max elemental exchange line and reckless power for more flat damage and cooldown CT as a nuke. Agrivix relic should put in a tonne of work, and I'll use 4 pieces of the Iksandra set for toughness and more damage. Decree of aldritch to convert elemental to aether, with a beronath shard as an attack replacer, which will also allow me to use reaping strike. Devotion I'll get arcane bomb and will of rattosh. Everything else, I'll make up as I go.

On paper it should work at least
 
Dec 13, 2013
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I’ve forgotten just how much of a time sink this game is. Hoped back in for the expansion and I already have a reaper, a death knight, a pet cabalist, a non pet cabalist, a shaman who I’m holding out for a second class decision, a gunslinging inquisitor/demolitionist and I’m still thinking about builds I could try
I’m not going to finish am I lol
 
Jan 6, 2014
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I’ve forgotten just how much of a time sink this game is. Hoped back in for the expansion and I already have a reaper, a death knight, a pet cabalist, a non pet cabalist, a shaman who I’m holding out for a second class decision, a gunslinging inquisitor/demolitionist and I’m still thinking about builds I could try
I’m not going to finish am I lol
The worst (best) is finding a cool item and going, "Yeah, I could make a new character to take advantage of this!"
 
Jun 23, 2012
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Random question, I got a little tired of my main character (a pet focused magic guy) so I put them on the backbirned for a bit and started a 2 handed melee shaman. If I wanted to make a character who was capable of tanking damage and unloading it on the enemies what would be a good 2nd class to take?
 
Jun 4, 2012
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If by tank damage and unload it on the enemies you mean like retaliation damage, then a warder is the way to go (so pair with soldier). They were really strong once upon a time but not sure how they go now.

See this guide for one that used to be popular but it may be a little out of date now