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[IoCaster]

I thought it was an obvious excuse that was used to defend the design choices in XIII.

Cultural differences aside it's eerily similar to the approach taken by the Dragon Age 2 team in post release interviews. I prefer the straight talk from a dev like John Carmack to any of this self-serving bullshit pretense.

EDIT: <On Topic> I haven't played any of the recent GRIN games, but I thought that GRAW (PC) was a pretty good effort. Except for that damn embassy mission. It's a shame that they couldn't line up more opportunities like that to help keep them afloat.

 

[cuyahoga]

Wow, that bad huh?

Yeah.

I don't mean to defend Grin (they made some shitty games), but I recently heard an interview with a developer from the Terminator Salvation team in a podcast. He said they had ideas and wanted to surprise the gamers, but that there just wasn't any time. They had to cut things and make the deadline at all costs, because that's what Warned demanded.

He didn't like the game himself and seemed to be truly sorry that they weren't allowed to make the game they wanted to do.

Given the dev cycle, I think they had to have cut everything from the game.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Wasn't it a bland tower defense game? How was this going to revolutionize Final Fantasy?

From what i've heard the game concept was supposed to be similar to the old Amiga classic Moonstone (which was a mix between strategy, fighting game and rpg).

 

[Teknoman]

Well off-topic, but hopefully someone steps up to make an amazing Terminator game some day.

 

[Neuromancer]

Holy shit. I feel really bad for those guys. If this is all true, of course.

 

[Vespene]

They probably sent them character art and Square said "what happened to the hair!?"

 

[Totobeni]

Well off-topic, but hopefully someone steps up to make an amazing Terminator game some day.

The Terminator: Future Shock is still the greatest Terminator game ever created, so yeah lets hope Bethesda get the license back( I don't even mind an open world Terminator game like Fallout)

 

[Fimbulvetr]

From what i've heard the game concept was supposed to be similar to the old Amiga classic Moonstone (which was a mix between strategy, fighting game and rpg).

This tech demo is the only footage and it's clearly unfinished.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YzdzYbEWOg

 

[LocoMrPollock]

I blame their shitty games.

 

[Vespene]

You know what? I don't really care at this point. I don't want to be on the other side of things with Japan handling development of a western franchise.

 

[From The Dust]

Holy shit. I feel really bad for those guys. If this is all true, of course.

I don't they made some mediocre to crap games in succession that all bombed

 

[Freshmaker]

From what i've heard the game concept was supposed to be similar to the old Amiga classic Moonstone (which was a mix between strategy, fighting game and rpg).

...

Yeah, that's not revolutionizing FF.

 

[Azure Dream]

I think one of the biggest problems with GRIN is that they spread themselves much too thin. I mean look at this release schedule, all for at least 360, PS3, and PC:

Wanted: March 17, 2009
Terminator: Salvation: May 19, 2009
Bionic Commando (next-gen version): May 19, 2009 (PC version July 17, 2009)

And then we find out on top of this, they were working on Fortress, and seeing some of the material that leaked out, they had obviously put some significant work into it already.

That's four major games, for a studio that was way too small for it. It's their fault for taking on so much work at once, but they probably figured they had to pull it off to survive. (Or die trying, so to speak.)

 

[Radogol]

GRIN sucked so there is no problem here.

You suck too, yet I don't see mods forcing you into committing an account suicide only so they can say "Hey, we didn't ban that guy just because we didn't like him. He asked for it!"

 

[Rolf NB]

Can we somehow blame GRiN for the downfall of Square Enix?

 

[RurouniZel]

I don't know if it's their fault GRIN went out of business, but I 100% believe their stories of Square-Enix's complete and utter incompetence, just judging from what they've done this gen. >_<

 

[CadetMahoney]

You know what? I don't really care at this point. I don't want to be on the other side of things with Japan handling development of a western franchise.

what is your avatar about? Looks like Venger's mom?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It seems like, if you are teetering on the edge of financial ruin, you don't waste time "seeing if the publisher is paying attention."

 

[ferr]

what is your avatar about? Looks like Venger's mom?

Go watch reboot.

 

[Kintaro]

No, GRIN died long before they had anything to do with Square. Shitty games. Shitty studio. RIP.

 

[Rahxephon91]

what is your avatar about? Looks like Venger's mom?

Hexadecimal from reboot

You suck too, yet I don't see mods forcing you into committing an account suicide only so they can say "Hey, we didn't ban that guy just because we didn't like him. He asked for it!"

Someone's mad.

 

[syoaran]

Seems like they shouldn't have bothered to hire them in the first place.

If this is true, then it just feels part of the great fail of S-E's upper management. They seem to have serious problems sticking to one thing (making good, epic games) and instead want to put their mark everywhere (spin-off sequels on EVERYTHING), like some child with too much sugar.

The comparison has been made for GRIN as well, so I guess both are to blame here.

 

[Azure Dream]

It seems like, if you are teetering on the edge of financial ruin, you don't waste time "seeing if the publisher is paying attention."

I think this was more of a case of "they wanted to see how fucked they really were." No matter how hard they worked from that point on, it was clear Square was already done with them, they just hadn't made it formal yet.

 

[Kiriku]

Potshot at the end and use of the word retarded makes them look foolish.

I think 'retarded' might be a slight mistranslation. I interpreted it more like being technically behind in that regard. Potshot is correct though.

Very easy to see if there's any truth to that: is there a GRIN lawsuit against S-E over unpaid milestones? Because if there isn't the guy is either lying or is a moron who deserved to be screwed over.

I cannot imagine one would not fill a lawsuit in a situation like that.

The article says they considered it but didn't want to take the risk because the legal process would be way too expensive (and they didn't have any money).

That's four major games, for a studio that was way too small for it. It's their fault for taking on so much work at once, but they probably figured they had to pull it off to survive. (Or die trying, so to speak.)

Well, GRIN did form new studios for both Terminator and Wanted, so it's not like they had the same team working on all four games. Perhaps they grew too fast though.

 

[CecilRousso]

From what i've heard the game concept was supposed to be similar to the old Amiga classic Moonstone (which was a mix between strategy, fighting game and rpg).

I don´t think I ever been as interested in a Final Fantasy game as I am by that concept you described there.

Canceled? Developer closed? Of course.......

 

[Vespene]

I think most people react the way they do about this bit of news in spite of Grin's track record. The fact of the matter is that Square treated them the same way they would've treated Bioware or Valve had they been working on a Final Fantasy game.

There's a faction within Square that regards Final Fantasy as the end all be all of all game franchises and defends it with the same zeal a religious fanatic defends his holy book. They're are truly living a final fantasy.

 

[Phantast2k]

My condolences to the EIDOS employees. Having to deal with this bullshit must be painful.

 

[Ellis Kim]

Who in the world were they in contact with over in S-E? It sounds like whoever it was was a total uncreative dipshit who didn't know anything about what they were doing. Fax code and music? What?

Holy crap @ the FFXII concept art thing. That is just... wow.

They were very clearly talking to someone who has a very narrow view of what the "Final Fantasy" brand has been or should be; it was either some junior producer or someone who was completely apart from the creative teams at S-E.

God damn this shit pisses me off.

I get the impression that they never, ever did any sort of video conference calling with translators.

 

[Brobzoid]

EIDOS will be able to break away and survive when Square finally tanks, right? I mean, EIDOS actually turns a profit and makes worthwhile games. :/

 

[Nirolak]

I finally looked at this thread.

Wooooooooooooooooooow.

 

[Teknoman]

Who in the world were they in contact with over in S-E? It sounds like whoever it was was a total uncreative dipshit who didn't know anything about what they were doing. Fax code and music? What?

Holy crap @ the FFXII concept art thing. That is just... wow.

They were very clearly talking to someone who has a very narrow view of what the "Final Fantasy" brand has been or should be; it was either some junior producer or someone who was completely apart from the creative teams at S-E.

God damn this shit pisses me off.

I get the impression that they never, ever did any sort of video conference calling with translators.

I wouldnt get so pissed off, especially at the parts of the article that just really seem off the wall. Unless Square just really was doing it out of spite, or by some odd stretch of fate, they got in contact with someone at Square Enix that had no idea about one of the most recent FF games they released. I'd wait for some deeper digging because the whole thing sounds a little farfetched, even for current day S-E. I'd also like to see what XII art they sent to S-E, and whether or not it was Yoshida art.

Maybe i'm just being naive...

I can believe the fax story. I've heard similar requests from project managers before ("just print everything out!").

I wonder if there were communication issues due to language though.



Do you have a link? I'm not sure I ever saw that.

Sure:

And the concept art for Queen Ashe (Fortress was supposed to take place in XII era Ivalice)

 

[markot]

Maybe after the reviews for bionic commando, Square just wanted out >_<?

 

[Nirolak]

I wouldnt get so pissed off, especially at the parts of the article that just really seem off the wall. Unless Square just really was doing it out of spite, or by some odd stretch of fate, they got in contact with someone at Square Enix that had no idea about one of the most recent FF games they released. I'd wait for some deeper digging because the whole thing sounds a little farfetched, even for current day S-E.

They've yet to respond to any inquires and it's been a surprisingly long time.

That they seem happy to shove this under the rug is fairly dubious.

 

[Vespene]

Bionic Commando wasnt great, but it sure beats the garbage coming out of S-E these years.

 

[Ellis Kim]

And the concept art for Queen Ashe (Fortress was supposed to take place in XII era Ivalice)

Ha, that's awesome. Too bad we never got to see that. It looks like a weird cross between a Tonberry and a Sahagin, though.

edit: :O

Fuck Square-enix, man. God damn, I would've liked to have seen that. XII-2? Hell yeah.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

Bionic Commando was terrible. It was the last nail in the coffin for them.

So, to test the waters at Square a bit, and to see if it was even paying attention, GRIN sent it some concept art from taken straight from Final Fantasy XII.

The Anderssons were told: “It does not look like Final Fantasy.”

Wow....

 

[CecilRousso]

I´ve read the whole article in swedish now, and even though it´s a bit annoying that they don´t talk about the failures that were Terminator: Salvation and Wanted, SE´s behaviour just sucks. That they just decided that they were gonna pull the plug on the project without paying GRIN anything, because they knew that Grin were in a position were they couldn´t afford to sue them and take the legal battle, that´s low.

But then again, that´s probably just how things are done at that level. EA, Activision and companies like them must also have done this dozens of times.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

Sorry, I hate everyone lost their jobs, but these developers need to get their business straight and stop signing their lives over to these publishers.

if that means you need to develop smaller, then develop smaller.

it's ridiculous how these dudes have no business sense. they just lap it up in the lion's den and then get chewed up and spit out at the first sign of trouble.

STAY INDIE. or in the least, manage your publishing deals correctly.

 

[Shiggy]

What happened? First, two months without Square Enix paid a penny. There was no problem, arguing Greg Anderson, the publishers would be careless with it.

But three months, four, five? No money from the Japanese. Integrin bled: studio cost around 12 million a month. The brothers held out, they were supposed to do a new edition of one of the world's most classic franchises.

In bankruptcy documents, it appears that Square Enix would pay a total of $ 16,500,000 - about 100 million - to grin. Disbursements would be made in installments, as the grin reached the milestones of the project. According to documents lodged at the Stockholm City Court Square Enix felt that these milestones are not achieved in a satisfactory manner ".

- All that came as a retrospective design. Before it was never a problem. We had delivered a number of milestones. As we had by email and passed by a producer.

The day after the wedding, called a person from Square Enix with a guilty conscience. He said that it was Square thinking back out without paying. The Brothers were considering suing the publisher, but soon realized that a lawsuit could pay them dearly.

Grins's coffers were empty. It was over.

Grins bankruptcy was a real stjärnsmäll. In bankruptcy documents from August 2009 shows that the debts amounted to over 148 million.

Greg Anderson is putting up:

- We were not required so much money. They factored in the lease of seven years that we had with the Waterfront for a new site where we have not been admitted yet. And it was only at 77 million. The subcontractor Fatshark compensated us with material, personnel and technology. [Additional information: Fatshark took over Bionic Commando Rearmed 2 and used some work of the cancelled title Cult in Lead & Gold]

- Then there was the wages, but we covered everything that was not vacation pay. Uffe and I went in with all the money we had. Those who worked really long time might have missed some, but not enormous amount. It did not bleed like that. It's pretty good for the conscience having done such a thing, but there is no one to thank.

Well, there is some bitterness in his tone when Greg Anderson talks about the period after closure. Several of the guests at the wedding ended up in touch, some of them he had had daily contact with for many years.

- Making Bankruptcy is like getting cancer. It is very quiet on the phone, people do not want to talk about it. In addition, it is considered as semi-criminal.

Today, he and Ulf still in debt - "so that it feels" - and they are still working with game development. They have started a new studio, but this time thinking they do not rely on big publishers. He sounds enthusiastic when he talks about how the next week, will present its new games for selected journalists.

Very interesting article altogether!

 

[daffy]

I think 'retarded' might be a slight mistranslation. I interpreted it more like being technically behind in that regard. Potshot is correct though.

Ahhh ok, I see. Much better then.

@Shiggy That interview refers to a "wedding" of some sort. What's that about?

 

[markot]

Looks like they were screwed with or without SE with those debts

 

[Necromanti]

Ahhh ok, I see. Much better then.

@Shiggy That interview refers to a "wedding" of some sort. What's that about?

Apparently, someone from Square Enix called and told Bosse Andersson about wanting to bail out without compensation a day after his wedding. They talk about the shittiness of the timing.

 

[daffy]

Apparently, someone from Square Enix called and told Bosse Andersson about wanting to bail out without compensation a day after his wedding. They talk about the shittiness of the timing.

Oh, so it was Bosse Anderson's wedding, I see. Thanks.

 

[jonremedy]

Sorry, I hate everyone lost their jobs, but these developers need to get their business straight and stop signing their lives over to these publishers.

if that means you need to develop smaller, then develop smaller.

it's ridiculous how these dudes have no business sense. they just lap it up in the lion's den and then get chewed up and spit out at the first sign of trouble.

STAY INDIE. or in the least, manage your publishing deals correctly.

According to the swedish article, this is what they're planning on doing this time.

 

[Urban Scholar]

To be honest I'm not really taken back by anything I've read. The fact here is that things were bad on both sides. Grin might have been able to stay a float but those failed projects and poor sales dug the grave. Also I can only imagine the work environment for them with a huge project that would fall through. In the back of my mind I always wonder, what would this game bring to the table if complete?

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

Entire genre got more and more stale for me. Battle system couldn't keep up, good stories went away for loli/spiky hair shit (Tales series, Atelier Crapruru, Idea Factory, ugh). I had a blast with Persona 3/4 because of great story and great system. FFXIII had great world, bad and cheesy story because Toriyama is a hack, but the battle system puts majority of turn-based jRPG crap to shame.

Entire genre got more and more stale for me. Battle system couldn't keep up, good stories went away for loli/spiky hair shit (Tales series, Atelier Crapruru, Idea Factory, ugh)..

Entire genre got more and more stale for me. Battle system couldn't keep up, good stories went away for loli/spiky hair shit (Tales series,...ugh)

Entire genre got more and more stale for me. (Tales series...ugh)

Go away and leave Tales games out of this

 

[mclem]

Given that GRIN are in Europe, are we sure they weren't liaising with EIDOS people rather than Square-Japan people?

 

[French]

They should have cancelled FF XIII instead of Fortress.

 

[Ellis Kim]

Given that GRIN are in Europe, are we sure they weren't liaising with EIDOS people rather than Square-Japan people?

This was before the purchase.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I can believe the fax story. I've heard similar requests from project managers before ("just print everything out!").

Same here, I wouldn't expect it from the games industry but it's a probably sign of things going to pieces so they can pass copies to their lawyers.