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[Haly]

Also, some esports, most notably Starcraft, are serious business. Pro SC2 aren't playing it hours every day just for fun, it's a career for them. There's a point where playing a game over and over again stops being entertainment and starts becoming a job. QA is one case where the fun starts bleeding out of a game, progaming/esports is another.

As for being able to create an identity, every competitive game worth its salt allows players to differentiate their playstyles from one another. Again, SC2 is the best example here, but one I'm more familiar with is DOTA. Some teams play aggressively, some play defensively, some use weird hero setups and builds, all of which forces the other team to adapt or get rolled.

From a purely competitive standpoint there's nothing so unique about physical sports that doesn't have it's analogue in esports, aside from physical exertion.

 

[Dinosaur Tamer]

The whole eSports concept melts my mind to be honest. It comes across as a label someone has invented to justify countless hours poured into playing the same video game over and over again. Trying to suggest there are real tactics, training, organisation and evolution to what they are doing.

You seem to have been on a media blackout since 1998.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

OK, you guys can call it an eSport if you desire to call it an eSport. I'll just call it Gaming, like it has been for years and years. I don't think any less of you guys if you want to spend countless hours playing your favourite computer games, hell I've been there too. I just will not ever see this as anything like a sport.

You seem to have been on a media blackout since 1998.

I live in England. We have fields and poor internet. The notion that computer games could be considered a sport will probably happen in another 5 years. We're trendy like that.

 

[QisTopTier]

OK, you guys can call it an eSport if you desire to call it an eSport. I'll just call it Gaming, like it has been for years and years. I don't think any less of you guys if you want to spend countless hours playing your favourite computer games, hell I've been there too. I just will not ever see this as anything like a sport.



I live in England. We have fields and poor internet. The notion that computer games could be considered a sport will probably happen in another 5 years. We're trendy like that.

Do you make thousands of dollars just "gaming"? Get endorsement deals, get placed in ads, be on a bag of freaking doritos and so on.

 

[Vinci]

OK, you guys can call it an eSport if you desire to call it an eSport. I'll just call it Gaming, like it has been for years and years. I don't think any less of you guys if you want to spend countless hours playing your favourite computer games, hell I've been there too. I just will not ever see this as anything like a sport.

I've never treated gaming as an esport. Hell, I'm married - I wouldn't have the time to do so. But I think if physical skill and competition are the base requirements of a 'sport,' then some gaming can qualify. There are things people do in games that I, honestly, would never be able to do - not without, at least, putting in hundreds of hours into learning how. That's no different from real world sports either, though you inevitably hit into a certain limitation of physical or mental ability.

 

[inky]

Again, you've ignored the post where I gave an example of how NFL changed the moment a QB decided to run with the ball instead of just passing it all the time. Or the moment a sport changed when someone was able to use both feet effectively. Or how the role of a PG changed over the years in Basketball.

Its just not a sport. Having watched a video on youtube, I'm still can't see it as a sport. Its a bunch of people playing Counter Strike against each other to a very serious and competitive level. They're gamers - not athletes.

eSports change that way as well. Suddenly someone realizes a more viable strategy, exploits it and a new paradigm is born. Plus they have existed for a lot less time than other things you consider real sports. I think it mostly offends you that there is almost no physical skill involved (other than eye-hand coordination and finger speed I suppose). I think the real problem is actually calling them sports which as other have said is just a buzzword. But be certain that under any other name those things you say are not in there still would be.

I assume you are one of those that thinks motor racing sports are not sports... so whatever.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

Do you make thousands of dollars just "gaming"? Get endorsement deals, get placed in ads, be on a bag of freaking doritos and so on.

I don't make any dollars, as that's not my currency. I do however make money as a SPORTS COACH. Still to appear on crisp packets, I have appeared in a computer game

 

[QisTopTier]

I don't make any dollars, as that's not my currency. I do however make money as a SPORTS COACH. Still to appear on crisp packets, I have appeared in a computer game

haha That wasn't the point I was trying to make. For example if a group of guys like playing basketball on the weekends, is that the same as the athletes who play competitively?

 

[Vinci]

I don't make any dollars, as that's not my currency. I do however make money as a SPORTS COACH. Still to appear on crisp packets, I have appeared in a computer game

That's cool. Sports coaches are great motivators for young people. I salute you. Perhaps we're just hitting a point where certain older concepts are now being applied in new ways. Whether that's right or wrong is a matter of opinion, as this conversation makes clear, but I think you'd have to seriously narrow the definition of 'sport' to exclude the possibility of any electronic variant receiving the designation.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

eSports change that way as well. Suddenly someone realizes a more viable strategy, exploits it and a new paradigm is born. Plus they have existed for a lot less time than other things you consider real sports. I think it mostly offends you that there is almost no physical skill involved (other than eye-hand coordination and finger speed I suppose). I think they problem is actually calling them sports which as other have said is just a buzzword. But be certain than under any other name those things you say are not in there still would be.

I assume you are one of those that thinks motor racing sports are not sports... so whatever.

I like Motor Racing. I'd consider it a sport as the drivers still have to have a strong mental capicity, and their arms are like granite rock. The front office management is insane too - the level of logistics involved in managing a Racing Team seems unreal.

I will repeat, that I have no issue with people playing their favourite games for a million hours, it just seems odds (and has been mentioned its just a buzzword) that they'd try and call it an eSport. Seems a very odd term.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

haha That wasn't the point I was trying to make. For example if a group of guys like playing basketball on the weekends, is that the same as the athletes who play competitively?

Well now you're getting into the difference between Play/Recreation/Competition, which I guess is the point you're making. They'd still be athletes, but at what level - who knows.

That's cool. Sports coaches are great motivators for young people. I salute you. Perhaps we're just hitting a point where certain older concepts are now being applied in new ways. Whether that's right or wrong is a matter of opinion, as this conversation makes clear, but I think you'd have to seriously narrow the definition of 'sport' to exclude the possibility of any electronic variant receiving the designation.

I honestly think it is my age (only 27 ) and coming across the term eSport for the first time - very surprised. I can see where and why the term eSport is used, as yes tactics, organisations, etc are prevelant (faux paux from me underplaying that part).

 

[Haly]

Rolls off the tongue, evocative, brings "legitimacy" to the activity itself because rest assured a lot of people were as incredulous as you were when esports started out.

That last one is especially important, because competitive gaming cannot really take off if the general public isn't willing to take it seriously.

 

[RepairmanJack]

Well now you're getting into the difference between Play/Recreation/Competition, which I guess is the point you're making. They'd still be athletes, but at what level - who knows.

I still want to know if you have watched any high level competitive gaming. I really think you would see it differently if you saw a competitive aspect of a game you already play or have played.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

There is a Premiership Footballer (Soccer player) who was a very 'skilled' Counter Strike player. If I ever get the chance to ask him if he considered what he used to do as a sport/eSport I shall.

I still want to know if you have watched any high level competitive gaming. I really think you would see it differently if you saw a competitive aspect of a game you already play or have played.

I watched this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GIC_CLqG68 like 10 minutes ago. Probably not the greatest example ever.

 

[Haly]

If anything, most of the esport demographic is in their mid to late 20s, so it's rather surprising you'd mention age as a possible reason behind your incredulity.

It really does sound like you've been on blackout for a decade or so.

Surely you've heard of competitive Magic the Gathering? With prize pools of some tens of thousands of dollars/pounds?

eSport was just the next logical step as games moved from a physical medium to a digital one and became more accessible due to the rising penetration of high speed internet.

 

[Smiley90]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Pre-Purchase from ArenaNet is LIVE again! Yay! That means they're definitely increasing server capicity or at least making the second beta a bigger stress-test by giving out more Beta-codes, I LIKE IT. Will be buying as soon as I know what the date for the second beta weekend is, please dear god let it be a weekend I can play, I've missed the first one already

https://buy.guildwars2.com/

 

[Dinosaur Tamer]

OK, you guys can call it an eSport if you desire to call it an eSport. I'll just call it Gaming, like it has been for years and years. I don't think any less of you guys if you want to spend countless hours playing your favourite computer games, hell I've been there too. I just will not ever see this as anything like a sport.



I live in England. We have fields and poor internet. The notion that computer games could be considered a sport will probably happen in another 5 years. We're trendy like that.

I am sorry, if my comment came of as offensive. I just did not expect someone on GAF being so "out of the loop" with the development of electronic sports during the last ~14 years. It's not like there has been little media coverage recently and their development has been one of the major head-turners of video game history since the dawn of online games.

Also, chess actually is a sport. It has even been recognized by the International Olympic Committee a long time ago. It's just semantics, sure, but I honestly don't think chess being a sport could get any more "official". Electronic sports are not in the same spot, but you will have a hard time arguing against some of them being a sport based on the most common definitions. The reliance on physical prowess is no longer an important part of sports for most people (see chess).

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Pre-Purchase from ArenaNet is LIVE again! Yay! That means they're definitely increasing server capicity or at least making the second beta a bigger stress-test by giving out more Beta-codes, I LIKE IT. Will be buying as soon as I know what the date for the second beta weekend is, please dear god let it be a weekend I can play, I've missed the first one already

https://buy.guildwars2.com/

The next weekend will start on the 18th. Just because that's three days after Diablo 3 launches.

 

[Vinci]

Well now you're getting into the difference between Play/Recreation/Competition, which I guess is the point you're making. They'd still be athletes, but at what level - who knows.



I honestly think it is my age (only 27 ) and coming across the term eSport for the first time - very surprised. I can see where and why the term eSport is used, as yes tactics, organisations, etc are prevelant (faux paux from me underplaying that part).

Well, you're young to me.

I think the big thing to keep in mind is that language evolves - sadly in harmful ways more often than not - and that terms which had certain connotations can be utilized in new ways as things change. 'Sports / eSports' is just one way in which the virtual world is adopting terms from the real world into its lingo, and the reason is that it sees measurable similarities between the two.

They could call it something else, of course... 'Video Olympics!" anyone?... but in the end, 'eSports' was chosen for a sense of continuity and legitimacy.

 

[RepairmanJack]

I watched this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GIC_CLqG68 like 10 minutes ago. Probably not the greatest example ever.

Yeah, that definitely shows absolutely nothing. It's easy to give you tons of examples but unless it's something you have played before or know a good amount about it may not have the same effect. Played any MOBA games, SC2, Halo, Counter strike, Team Fortress 2?

 

[Mr. Luchador]

I am sorry, if my comment came of as offensive. I just did not expect someone on GAF being so "out of the loop" with the development of electronic sports during the last ~14 years. It's not like there has been little media coverage recently and their development has been one of the major head-turners of video game history since the dawn of online games.

Also, chess actually is a sport. It has even been recognized by the International Olympic Committee a long time ago. It's just semantics, sure, but I honestly don't think chess being a sport could get any more "official". Electronic sports are not in the same spot, but you will have a hard time arguing against some of them being a sport based on the most common definitions. The reliance on physical prowess is no longer an important part of sports for most people (see chess).

Its obviously something you guys are passionate about, and the last thing I want to do is quell anyone's passion. At the very least you've made me aware of a different perspective and how serious some people are about competitive gaming.

Chess was a game, which later was classified as a sport, yes Also, you'd be surprised at how little coverage computer games receive in England. Unless someone has stabbed someone, in which case computer games will be blamed. I'd like to think I'm not totally troglodyte in my understanding - I was aware that Starcraft was hugely popular in Korea to the extent they had leagues and such. However, as I've obviously made clear, I didn't appreciate the scale and level of competition as much as others do.

Yeah, that definitely shows absolutely nothing. It's easy to give you tons of examples but unless it's something you have played before or know a good amount about it may not have the same effect. Played any MOBA games, SC2, Halo, Counter strike, Team Fortress 2?

Yup, and again perhaps it says more about my take on them. Never considered them to anything more than games. My level was recreation, while others are clearly at competition/eSport.

Well, you're young to me.

I think the big thing to keep in mind is that language evolves - sadly in harmful ways more often than not - and that terms which had certain connotations can be utilized in new ways as things change. 'Sports / eSports' is just one way in which the virtual world is adopting terms from the real world into its lingo, and the reason is that it sees measurable similarities between the two.

They could call it something else, of course... 'Video Olympics!" anyone?... but in the end, 'eSports' was chosen for a sense of continuity and legitimacy.

Too kind!

So is there a genuine psychology behind these games when teams compete? Is there an ability for true independent thought and decision making?

 

[Teknopathetic]

Here's an example of the thought process of a competitive player in a game with a high skill ceiling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58

 

[QisTopTier]

So is there a genuine psychology behind these games when teams compete? Is there an ability for true independent thought and decision making?

one of the best examples.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/...-seth-killian-explains-the-most-famous-minute

 

[Teknopathetic]

"one of the best examples."


To be honest, it's really not. It doesn't really show (that) much about any kind of thought or decision making, all you really see is someone doing something that's fairly difficult.

 

[Haly]

But it's not an esports discussion until someone brings up the video so quota fulfilled!

 

[Smiley90]

I feel like the lack of new info about GW2 and the beta-withdrawal symptoms some of you have have culmulated in general rage/unrelated discussions. Can we please get back to GW2/competitive aspects of GW2 PVP (if you so want to), but drop the "Is esport real sport?" talk, because it's not really related to this thread, thanks.

 

[Kalnos]

Q3A is still GOAT. It has the twitch, the timings, and the thought of whether certain risks are worth taking all within a split second.

Unrelated: Are you making a Nexuiz thread for the PC Tekno?

 

[inky]

So is there a genuine psychology behind these games when teams compete? Is there an ability for true independent thought and decision making?

Of course there is. They would grow stale very quickly if there wasn't any. Many of these games work as other competitive team activities do: you get the same tools the other team/your opponent does to exert dominance in the play field and it comes down to a mix of personal/group skill and mentality plus strategy to capitalize on your opponent's mistakes. Very few matches if any are the same.

Many casters in the Quake scene will say with absolute certainty that they can tell who is playing just by looking at the way the character moves in the game, which is quite impressive if you ask me.

 

[QisTopTier]

"one of the best examples."


To be honest, it's really not. It doesn't really show (that) much about any kind of thought or decision making, all you really see is someone doing something that's fairly difficult.

Eh you are right, I should of looked for chen or someones analysis of it. >.<

 

[Vinci]

So is there a genuine psychology behind these games when teams compete? Is there an ability for true independent thought and decision making?

I would say it's roughly equivalent to real world sports in a sense - independent thought and decision making comes from taking what is occurring and responding to it in an intelligent, strategic manner. There are templates for success, certain habits or well-known strategies, but even these take a backseat when confronted by something unexpected or clever.

I'm not an eSports junkie or anything, so it's unlikely that I could produce videos to prove my point - but in my own experiences playing online games, I've seen things happen that struck me as particularly innovative and outside of the expected template for success.

 

[Trey]

"one of the best examples."


To be honest, it's really not. It doesn't really show (that) much about any kind of thought or decision making, all you really see is someone doing something that's fairly difficult.

It's the same thing as clutch moments in physical sports. Independently they're rather routine, even easy to do. It's the inherent meaning of the moment that fuels their respective greatness, therefore interest.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Unrelated: Are you making a Nexuiz thread for the PC Tekno?"

Probably, unless someone else wants to.


"It's the same thing as clutch moments in physical sports. Independently they're rather routine, even easy to do. It's the inherent meaning of the moment that fuels they're respective greatness, therefore interest."

Yes, but if you're trying to argue with someone undermining the "psychology" of competitive video games, that's not really the clip to use.

 

[QisTopTier]

Yes, but if you're trying to argue with someone undermining the "psychology" of competitive video games, that's not really the clip to use.

Yup I ended up changing what the link was to that one article about it.

 

[flyinpiranha]

No, I perhaps didn't choose my words correctly. I just don't see it as a Sport of any kind.

Sure you'll have people on vent communicating and organising. And you'll have your basic 'tactics' of Rock goes against Scissor. Paper goes against Rock. Scissor goes against Paper, etc.

Ah, I can see how you don't consider it a sport, my definition of "sport" is very loose for that matter.

It's funny you say the PRS comparison, when I played Basketball in school that's how our coach would describe us sometimes against other players "You be the rock to his scissors" because it was all about matchups and such.

Either way, I think the timing, strategies (strategery), teamwork and knowing what others do makes it pretty competitive. But I guess the definition of sport can mean something different to each person.

 

[gunbo13]

I'm not going to get into this discussion too much but I was an athlete up to the collegiate level playing lacrosse. And I was pretty damn good too. I also played basketball, baseball, and soccer for many years. I barely did any strategizing, game planning, or whatever. That's what coaches were for. All we did was use our abilities and work off muscle memory. In many video games, you are the coach + the player. Shit, I did 1000x more mentality demanding tasks playing GW1 PvP then my entire athletic career. I also did far more planning in GW1 cause again, coaches made us practice, run, etc...

When I beat somebody, it wasn't due to mental dexterity. It was mostly instinct or muscle memory. So what is this nonsense about "independent thought and decision making?"

 

[Proven]

It changes the game. People only using their dominate hand, or feet in a sport for a long time, no one really trying their other foot as wasn't even an idea. Then someone was as good with either hand or foot, and suddenly their mechanics changed. They were able to cut right and cut left with equal ability - suddenly they're harder to defend or challenge.

QB - PASS PASS PASS PASS PASS
Suddenly you face a QB who runs. First time ever. Hang on this is new. Changes the mechanics of the game.

Seriously eSports just comes across as a term used to justify spending a whole load of time playing a computer GAME. Do they consider themselves to be athletes? I'll openly admit this a totally new concept to me, and I think its the first time I've even seen the term used in this thread.



Still totally confined to what the code of the game will allow you to do. You'd never be able to throw a fire ball if it wasn't designed for that character to throw a fire ball. There is no free will or independent thinking.

This. This is shit. So just because there's no rule or limitation and somebody figured out they could get away from this and change the game, that's how you define a physical sport being better? Or being ambidextrous?

Do you know much about the Starcraft 1 competitive scene? Did you know that for years people never thought to expand? Can you believe that? They'd play on Lost Temple and even though the other mineral patches were there, at best they might be used for long distance mining later. Then one day someone actually plops down another base there, mines twice as many minerals, and stomps their opponent. HOLY CRAP! THE GAME'S TRANSFORMED! HOW DID WE NOT KNOW OF THIS!?

A video game is confined to the world coded in along with the rules placed on it. Something like Football is confined to the physical limitations of the real world along with the rules placed on it. Just like how some characters can't throw fireballs in Street Fighter, not everybody can run at the same speed or grow wings in Football.

Your argument is thus: You don't think eSports are "real" sports because you don't consider them requiring the physical ability necessary of a "real" sport. That's it. Open and shut. Chess now being considered a sport is seen by you as more of a tongue in cheek sort of thing that was done to placate people. You still don't care, it's a game in your eyes. No other argument past your opinion holds up, and I'm telling you this straight up because this is how this argument always ends up.

 

[Uchip]

Checked the OP
Didnt see anything about when the next beta will be (if there is one)
anyone?

 

[Proven]

Checked the OP
Didnt see anything about when the next beta will be (if there is one)
anyone?

We're sitting on "no idea" zone, sorry.

 

[Moaradin]

Hopefully the next one is much more optimized. Normally that low frame rate would not be playable.

 

[Jira]

Hopefully the next one is much more optimized. Normally that low frame rate would not be playable.

Good news is one of the 3 big things they're working on now is performance. In the previous build the game was CPU bound and your GPU was barely being used. People who had overclocked their Sandybridge chips to 5ghz were seeing over 60FPS solid proving that what ANet said was true(which is your CPU is currently doing most of the work).

 

[Retro]

Thank god, a new page. Let's put the eSport bullshit behind us and move on.

Checked the OP
Didnt see anything about when the next beta will be (if there is one)
anyone?

I'd put good money on the 18th, 19th and 20th. Next weekend is just too soon after the last beta and the weekend of the 25-27th is Memorial Day weekend in the US, so ANet will probably not want to deal with holiday pay and the employees will probably want it off. Players will also probably have family obligations, even if it's perfect for some of us. That's the last weekend in May.

Of course, ANet is also a company of gamers and they're obviously in crunch mode, so they may just hang the holiday and steam right through. Of course, they also said they'd try to do it at least once a month, but that doesn't mean every month is sure to have a BWE. For all we know, they might just do it the first weekend in June.

 

[inky]

For all we know, they might just do it the first weekend in June.

Or the last...

 

[Jira]

Or the last...

SHUT YOUR MOUTH

 

[Smiley90]

Thank god, a new page. Let's put the eSport bullshit behind us and move on.



I'd put good money on the 18th, 19th and 20th. Next weekend is just too soon after the last beta and the weekend of the 25-27th is Memorial Day weekend in the US, so ANet will probably not want to deal with holiday pay and the employees will probably want it off. Players will also probably have family obligations, even if it's perfect for some of us. That's the last weekend in May.

Of course, ANet is also a company of gamers and they're obviously in crunch mode, so they may just hang the holiday and steam right through. Of course, they also said they'd try to do it at least once a month, but that doesn't mean every month is sure to have a BWE. For all we know, they might just do it the first weekend in June.

They mentioned "it might be slower than once a month" though and also said they were shutting down the forum for "a few weeks" (which doesn't sound like "two"), so I'm thinking unfortunately the weekend after Memorial Day, 1st-3rd seems more likely, not? :/

 

[User Name Here]

Good news is one of the 3 big things they're working on now is performance. In the previous build the game was CPU bound and your GPU was barely being used. People who had overclocked their Sandybridge chips to 5ghz were seeing over 60FPS solid proving that what ANet said was true(which is your CPU is currently doing most of the work).

What are the other two big things?

 

[Achtius]

What are the other two big things?

Balance and tutorial?

 

[Jira]

What are the other two big things?

Balancing and teaching new users the game.

 

[RepairmanJack]

Thank god, a new page. Let's put the eSport bullshit behind us and move on.

Awwweee no fun.

 

[Ferny]

Sigh....i'm having such a bad GW2 itch.

 

[Stuart444]

Sigh....i'm having such a bad GW2 itch.

I've had that itch since the BWE finished

 

[ShaneB]

Sigh....i'm having such a bad GW2 itch.

I miss it, but I realize it's just best to occupy my time elsewhere. Just starting Arkham City, and that'll keep me busy until Diablo 3, and then I'm good.