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[DunDunDunpachi]

Interview at Destructoid

​

"After releasing Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 it's clear what we need to improve on. The key is to win over more users because of the complex controls. But if we implement everything the game will no longer be Guilty Gear. It's hard to balance out all the improvements. One thing that we have to do in the next installment is to reduce the number of systems [mechanics]; it's too complicated for everyone. You can expect that in the next game."​

The interview also touches on Ishiwatari's design philosophy, his opinions on other fighting games in Arc System Work's wheelhouse, and other plans for the company.

Well worth reading, but the headliner is definitely the comment about reducing systems.

Does Xrd have too many mechanics? Or do you think the series would benefit from simpler mechanics?

I can understand die-hards being nervous about simplifying systems they've grown to love in Xrd. However, I also remember Accent Core fans getting nervous about False Roman Cancels, Slashbacks, and Force Breaks being removed in Xrd, yet the #Reload players thought the game was better off without them.

However, the Guilty Gear franchises has never been more popular. There's definitely a risk in alienating all the new players you've acquired which is what happened to Capcom: Street Fighter IV was a huge boon for the company, but their stumbles with Street Fighter V alienated many of the fans they'd just won over with the previous title.

This comment comes earlier in the interview, hopefully laying concerns to rest (bolded emphasis mine):

"What we can say is that Dragon Ball FighterZ was developed based on the lessons learned through previous Guilty Gear and BlazBlue titles, but for Guilty Gear specifically it's important for us to maintain the people we've already won over. At the same time we do want to expand the userbase so more users are coming in. Daily, we're trying to figure out what our balance point is to satisfy our users that are already with us and new users."​

Thoughts?

 

[JunkerWoland]

Hypothetically speaking, when ASW releases a new Guilty Gear series to replace Xrd, I could see them choosing to pare down the character-specifics systems, so new players have an easier time choosing a fighter and learning the game's overarching mechanics. Unless the company is willing to actively support and maintain multiple GG fighters at the same time, I don't expect that they'd take the franchise's mechanics in a completely different direction, in an attempt to on-board new players.

 

[Enjay]

If fighting games continue to be produced the way they are the genre is dead (again) and this is irrelevant.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

As much as I like depth, that might actually help newer, less proficient fighting gamers get into the series. I will admit that the game can be complicated compared to most other fighters.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I say cross tag battle finds a nice balance between the 'dbfz' --- 'blazblue' sides of the spectrum.
It has surprisingly become one of my favourite fighting games of all time.

 

[Akuza89]

Maybe they've just learned this from their time with dragonball fighterZ - that's a very simplistic game with not too many mechanics, but takes a lot to master.

I'd be more than happy with something similar.

 

[michaelius]

Well he is correct I really loved first Blaz Blue which didn't have many weird systems but still offered amazing depth. I bounced from later BB games and GG: Xrd due to amount of stuff they have thrown into them until they released Cross Tag which was first part I really liked in years (apart from 2 P4A games which also felt good).

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I say cross tag battle finds a nice balance between the 'dbfz' --- 'blazblue' sides of the spectrum.
It has surprisingly become one of my favourite fighting games of all time.

I haven't played the full release, only the demo. It seemed simplified even compared to BB: Central Fiction, which I enjoyed. I even like the other included games (Under-Night and P4AU) but felt like Cross Tag was less than the sum of its parts.

Then again, it was just a demo. What do you like about it?

 

[Ten_Fold]

Sf5 is easier to understand than sf4 at least imo just lacks super cool looking flashy stuff. I think GG does a good job at explaining everything and even though they removed stuff from past GG game it’s still a lot. I don’t want it bbtag/dbfz simple but just a little easier wouldn’t hurt too much.

 

[Hobbesian]

Dead the stupid character-specific shit. I shouldn't be forced into focusing on one character just to be competent at the game because there's a different variation for my basic BnB and oki setups for every existential character in the game. Every matchup shouldn't feel like I'm playing a completely different game. That's a large barrier to accessibility for the person already committed to becoming competent let alone a casual player, furthermore, it sucks a lot of the fun out of the game at all levels. If I'm just an intermediate player that feels like letting his/her hair down in a session one day and trying another character they might be interested in - that's impossible without at least 30-60 minutes of training mode and that's still not enough time to even broach competency with said character. You'll be flailing about in neutral trying to land a BnB that may or may not work against your current opponent.

Axe YRC and make some of the movement options less liable so the series can have footsies again.

The mechanics creep doesn't matter. If you don't have the marketing and proper single player content to go with it; casuals/newbies aren't going to buy the game or stick with it. Fighting game developers need to stop making their games worse in the name of accessibility. It did absolutely nothing for the Xrd series and somehow the lesson learned here is "We didn't dumb things down enough".

Also, SFV had a problem getting casuals to pay attention to it through bad word of mouth after releasing barebones. Not because that game is "dumbed down" in any way.

Also, this interview is old as fuck.

- Kimosabae

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I haven't played the full release, only the demo. It seemed simplified even compared to BB: Central Fiction, which I enjoyed. I even like the other included games (Under-Night and P4AU) but felt like Cross Tag was less than the sum of its parts.

Then again, it was just a demo. What do you like about it?

Well that's because the game isn't like say capcom fighting jam, where each character has the systems from their own game; there are some minor things brought over, like yukiko's fire boosts, but they mostly created an entire new system. So you shouldn't see it as "a sum of its parts", but rather a new game featuring some familiar faces.
Trying to play it like 'central fiction' isn't going to work or do it justice.

I like how fast paced it is, like you literally can't even walk forward, everyone is always dashing.
And because of how streamlined the systems are, it feels more like I'm playing marvel than any other "anime fighter" I've played yet.
There's much more, but I guess I just like how it feels.

 

[Nymphae]

I was watching a CrossCounterTV show today called Sea Salt Suite something or other, had Gootecks on it. They were talking SFV and fighting games in general, and Gootecks mentioned how he feels like SFV has the perfect amount of execution (in context he was comparing it to SF4) for him, it allows him to focus more on matchups and less on the muscle memory practice required for simply mastering your character's move set.

Now obviously some people will still say SF has too many high level execution requirements, and some will say the game is too simplistic. For me personally, I agree with how he feels - I like the number of systems and level of execution required in SF, and find other anime fighters to just be too complicated for me to enjoy getting to high level play. I'm glad those exist and I hope they continue to for those that enjoy them, but for me personally I'm really happy they're going to make GG a little more streamlined. It'll be interesting to see how they attempt doing that while retaining the player base.

Edit: This is a great video on reducing the fighting game skill gap

 

[Alexios]

Wasn't SF3 3rd Strike among the least popular though? Cool game and all but receiving a small hardcore crowd isn't their goal so that kind of hardcore clearly didn't work for the series on any level which is why they went back to the previous entries' style past that and made a killing. You can't argue simplification led to the loss of the player base when the pinnacle praised as such is the least popular of all. You can argue SFV took it perhaps too far in that direction when SF4 did it better perhaps but not that the general direction is the cause for it. Also it was a clusterfuck in more ways so I can't pinpoint one reason.

 

[Nymphae]

Wasn't SF3 3rd Strike among the least popular though?

I wonder why exactly that was, usually people say it's because of the drastic cast change. I think it was just hardware, everyone had a genesis or SNES and SF2 sold a shitload, and did well in arcades. But 3 wasn't as ubiquitous on consoles, and the arcade scene was dying. The hardcores embraced it, but it didn't really catch on like wildfire the same way 2 did.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Well that's because the game isn't like say capcom fighting jam, where each character has the systems from their own game; there are some minor things brought over, like yukiko's fire boosts, but they mostly created an entire new system. So you shouldn't see it as "a sum of its parts", but rather a new game featuring some familiar faces.
Trying to play it like 'central fiction' isn't going to work or do it justice.

I like how fast paced it is, like you literally can't even walk forward, everyone is always dashing.
And because of how streamlined the systems are, it feels more like I'm playing marvel than any other "anime fighter" I've played yet.
There's much more, but I guess I just like how it feels.

Thanks for the impressions. This is encouraging to hear. The game does look cool but the simplicity (again, only based on impressions from the demo) turned me off a bit.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

I wonder why exactly that was, usually people say it's because of the drastic cast change. I think it was just hardware, everyone had a genesis or SNES and SF2 sold a shitload, and did well in arcades. But 3 wasn't as ubiquitous on consoles, and the arcade scene was dying. The hardcores embraced it, but it didn't really catch on like wildfire the same way 2 did.

Well literally every "next generation" or massive roster shift fighting game sequel but Tekken 3 has strait up flopped, but Tekken 3 was also kind of the SFII of the series at the same time in some ways, and was the series big hit that got a lot of people into the series, so it was a big different scenario than the others. Some franchises like Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting strait up died after there next generation installment. SoulCalibur V was the last major one that tried this, which ended poorly. So that stuff does have a big negative impact, although SFIII had multiple other factors going against it as well on top of that massive bullet point against it, ranging from franchise over saturation (there was also the Alpha series right alongside SFIII, which had a better roster and content), dying arcades, and Dreamcast only for home versions.

As for SFV, kind of what it botched in it's simplification was things like neutral and options for a variety of things.

 

[Fuz]

I actually think that if fighting games want to survive they need to dumb down their mechanics. Yes, even SF. They're really too hard to pick for casuals, with frame counting and complex mechanics, and they really need to go back to their simple "SF2" roots. Remember when the arcades were full of SF2 clones?
Of course, this won't be well received from hardcore and pro players.
But they really can't have both audiences.

I wonder why exactly that was

I don't know for sure, but me and my fighting game aficionados friends hated it for design reasons, not for mechanics reasons. The cast sucked. Bad. Didn't feel like the new SF game we wanted at all. We moved to KoF.

Of course, it's anecdotal.

 

[Nymphae]

I don't know for sure, but me and my fighting game aficionados friends hated it for design reasons, not for mechanics reasons. The cast sucked. Bad. Didn't feel like the new SF game we wanted at all. We moved to KoF.

Of course, it's anecdotal.

The cast is definitely a little too weird for it's own good I think. It's funny too because they created one of the best all time rosters of characters with 2.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I actually think that if fighting games want to survive they need to dumb down their mechanics. Yes, even SF. They're really too hard to pick for casuals, with frame counting and complex mechanics, and they really need to go back to their simple "SF2" roots. Remember when the arcades were full of SF2 clones?
Of course, this won't be well received from hardcore and pro players.
But they really can't have both audiences.


I don't know for sure, but me and my fighting game aficionados friends hated it for design reasons, not for mechanics reasons. The cast sucked. Bad. Didn't feel like the new SF game we wanted at all. We moved to KoF.

Of course, it's anecdotal.

The underlying mechanics can remain as long as the barrier to entry is lowered. Those two are separate issues. To put it another way, lowering the skill ceiling doesn't make the game more attractive or even more accessible to new players. No matter how simple you make a fighter (Dive Kick), experienced players will still be able to dominate with their understanding of the basics (neutral, poking, converting off hits, empty overheads-->grab, etc)

Arc System Works has been getting around this issue by adding 'Stylish' mode, extensive anime storylines, and robust tutorials. The players who want to learn the depth can learn it. And I think pairing their signature style and design philosophy with an anime like Dragon Ball Fighter Z was brilliant (and it's one of the top-selling fighters of the generation, surpassing both SFV and Tekken 7).

The problem is simply that fighting games are no longer in vogue (that isn't to say they're dying, though). In a few short years stuff like DotA2 and League have leapfrogged the fighting game "eSports" scene a dozen times over in terms of popularity, sponsorship, and participation. It shows you what the masses are more interested in playing. At the end of the day, new players will either overcome the initial hurdles to learn the genre and discover for themselves why it's so entertaining, or they'll move on to League, Hearthstone, and Fortnite.

 

[Hobbesian]

I actually think that if fighting games want to survive they need to dumb down their mechanics. Yes, even SF.

NO THEY DON'T.

Have you not payed attention to what's happened with the genre for the past 20 years? The game's ARE simpler and ARE dumber and it hasn't helped ANYTHING. The fact that people still cling to this after all the evidence still amazes me.

It's a red herring to think that FGs aren't accessible due to their mechanics. They're not accessible due to the very premise of what they are - a 1 v 1 competitive game. Period. This falls in line with everything we see outside and inside the video game sphere - cooperative games tend to be more popular competitively and casually than 1 v 1 zero-sum games. They're more popular with spectators and they're more popular with advertisers. The reasons for this are obvious: in a 1 v 1 circumstance, a player's ego cannot be as easily assuaged by potential external factors when loss occurs. How simple the game is simply DOES NOT MATTER. The barrier to entry is Ego Death and that's a sacrifice much too great for the average person when it's "only a game".

The only way, IMO, for the FG genre to advance is to look at what the most popular games are doing - namely MOBAS, Battle Royal, and general FPS Team games. The genre needs to expand into Team territory. It's been needed. Not something half-assed or attached on after-the-fact to fill out the bullet points on the back of your box. A competent FG developer needs to build a Team FG (2 v 2, simultaneous ideally) from the ground up and be willing to MARKET that game as primarily team-focused. The problem is that the current crop of competent FG devs are all mostly 25 year + stalwarts with limited visions of what the genre can be, there isn't anyone investing in the genre from the outside, and these developers are mostly Japanese, so they have no fucking clue what communities are saying about their games outside Japan.

Team Fighting games should have been a thing YESTERDAY, and the first FG developer to realize this will MAKE FUCKING BANK bookmark this fucking post.

Making Fighting Games less interesting is not the way. It serves NOTHING but to handicap the potential of the genre at large.

 

[Northeastmonk]

The cast is definitely a little too weird for it's own good I think. It's funny too because they created one of the best all time rosters of characters with 2.

I like Sol Badguy and then Order Sol (Accent Core). Its actually kinda hard to pick another character to play as. Slayer is alright because he's a vampire, Axl, Leo, etc are fine too. But some of the casts are super weird. Its not just the characters its their moves. Answer and Kum Haehyun's movesets feel very weird. The only character's movelist I've ever really enjoyed has been Sol.

I think Guilty Gear is probably a lot harder of a game than DBZ and SFV (by today's standards). I just don't really like performing a lot of other character's moves in Xrd Rev 2.

 

[Nymphae]

I like Sol Badguy and then Order Sol (Accent Core). Its actually kinda hard to pick another character to play as. Slayer is alright because he's a vampire, Axl, Leo, etc are fine too. But some of the casts are super weird. Its not just the characters its their moves. Answer and Kum Haehyun's movesets feel very weird. The only character's movelist I've ever really enjoyed has been Sol.

I think Guilty Gear is probably a lot harder of a game than DBZ and SFV (by today's standards). I just don't really like performing a lot of other character's moves in Xrd Rev 2.

...my post was referring to SF3 lol.

While I find that most of the cast of GG feels awkward, I really enjoy the character designs and overall creativity. I can't stand the way Sol plays actually, and ugh...that fucking name. I really like how Jam plays, and I desperately want to get into Baiken but her style just isn't for me.

 

[Hobbesian]

I find it super-funny when people criticize the designs of the Guilty Gear series or claim the aesthetics (anime or otherwise) clash with their sensibilities. Not they can't justifiably dislike the designs, but most of the people making these criticisms typically don't understand what the series is doing (at least, up until Xrd).

The series is essentially an homage to modern Western culture (Metal/rock culture more specifically, but that obviously has broader implications). Most of the character's aesthetics, from their looks, to their movesets, to their soundtracks are inspired by metal and rock bands. This is genuine inspiration as well and mostly executed really well. You can tell Daisuke has a Kojima-style hard-on for Western culture.

I just find it funny to think about when I see comments about the series being too "anime" or "non-relatable" or "edgy" whatever.

 

[Northeastmonk]

...my post was referring to SF3 lol.

While I find that most of the cast of GG feels awkward, I really enjoy the character designs and overall creativity. I can't stand the way Sol plays actually, and ugh...that fucking name. I really like how Jam plays, and I desperately want to get into Baiken but her style just isn't for me.

Oh. Whoops. I actually don't mind 3's cast. There were a few characters I just never wanted to play as. Oro and Remy. Oro never really appealed to me and Remy should have been Guile.