Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Excellent.
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Halo |OT5| Believe, Again
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
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Excellent.
ElzarTheBam
Member
I wouldn't call button combos a skill gap so much as a knowledge check. Outside of quadshotting, they were not hard to do, and there was no depth in the glitch themselves. (Edit: it's probably better to say the practical ones weren't hard to do) You just do it if you're in melee range.
There are/were button combos in Reach (that were hard as fuck to do), but they weren't practical because of latency and the fact that they were hard as fuck to do.
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
Amazing.
HigherLevel
Member
Man, every time I play Reach it hits me how much of a difference the movement, bloom, and lack of bleed-through make. Halo 4 will be way better just based on those areas being improved alone.
Skill is the implementation of knowledge. They created a skill gap, because within those that knew how to do them, there were those that could do them better than others because of reaction time, awareness, and hand eye coordination... all the things that go into implementing the knowledge.
A "skill gap" may be hard to measure in terms of a metric, but it's not so hard to measure in terms of the idea.
Well same thing. Classic Halo, aka guns, grenades, melee. Either way, I did appreciate the level of skill they added. Myself, I could only pull of BXB consistently. I didn't claw so BXR was difficult and even then, my timing/aim would be off. Double/Quad shotting was near impossible for me. I could barely do it when I tried alone, let alone in the middle of a firefight. I definitely appreciated the people that could though. They took the time to practice it and it pays off for them.
BXB was easy enough. It became a reflex almost, I would win most close range fights against players who didn't do it.
BXR was difficult imo. Not hard, but I could rarely pull it off in an actual match.
To me, they added a layer of depth to the gameplay simply because they unlocked more combat options.
Act quick, and you can double melee. Too quick and it cancels out the second melee.
Consciously make the decision to reload and make sure you have a full clip, then be able to pull off B X R in perfect timing, not too fast, not too slow, and make sure you're lined up with their head.
Be able to pull of a super difficult and expert timing manuever to give you a slight edge in a firefight by firing a BR burst just a split second faster than your opponent.
The game wasn't designed around that, I know. It made the BR mad overpowered, but whatever. However, I will say, if someone were to make an FPS with button combinations designed into it, it might be interesting. Instead of selecting a perk/ability like higher Rate of Fire, More Melee Damage, Faster melee...
These abilities are available for EVERYONE, they just need to correctly input the right combination with the right timing, and then they can do it.
Fuuuck, Tawp. Now I have to type up a real response later. I don't have the time right now, but I got you, mane.
This doesn't make the game deeper, it makes it quicker, which isn't a tenet of the "skill gap". There is a low execution barrier to the practical button combos, so in essence they just replace the function they are derivative of; usually melee.
This doesn't make the game deeper, it makes it quicker, which isn't a tenet of the "skill gap". There is a low execution barrier to the practical button combos, so in essence they just replace the function they are derivative of; usually melee.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Same, I find myself in DMR battles in BTB all the time wondering how the hell to best pace my shots to kill the person spamming me. BTB should be great in Halo 4 with the lack of crazy bloom.
Briefly played the Squad Slayer and Squad DLC playlist yesterday and to my surpise it was actually pretty fun, didn't curse at much at the screen as I use to.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Maybe I need to do that, I just love BTB when it's at its best. Hope Halo 4 has some good BTB maps.
I don't know how you accomplished this with 100% bloom; shit slows down the game so much its ridiculous.
Regardless of the 'skill' button combos added to the game, I still don't understand why anyone would want these in a shooter. Whatever, its not like they are coming back.
HigherLevel
Member
Yeah, it's just so inconsistent. If you're host, it's like you don't even have bloom. If you aren't, it could feel like you've got 200% bloom one game and then the next you could feel like you actually have 85%. It's just a frustrating and difficult mechanic. You never can really tell when you're shots are hitting and when they aren't.
It makes it "deeper" by providing layers, due to adding options, that wouldn't have otherwise been there in given encounters. Provided one has the skill to do it... which is the point.
So - with the proper skill set, a guy could kill one, quick reload, kill another, BXR the third rushing him, and make up shots with a double or quad shot for an overkill. Without the added layers, and skill in implementation, it stopped at kill two.
Your "low execution barrier" had a gradient of skill even among professional ranks lol. They don't replicate functions, they combine functions providing the ability to do more, subject to relative skill.
ActiveRush
Member
Is there an eta on the sparkast? I thought I saw a tweet from mr. Ellis that it was coming out today.
Silly off topic question... Did you ever play in Active Rush? That roster changed a ton through the years, and I played with a couple of the guys once upon a time - your tag looks familiar.
Poker Face
Member
soon
User 73706
Banned
Pre-ordered Halo 4 Limited yesterday.
SO THAT I CAN CANCEL
I don't know how he managed to play Squad Slayer yesterday.
I must know his secrets.
And you wouldn't be open to having them be in a shooter designed with them in mind? I sorta liked my example. Instead of picking perks and everyone being on unequal ground, you would all have access to special moves like shooting faster, meleeing faster, etc. by inputting a combo correctly.
Also, another thing I want returning from Halo 2, the melee dodge. I couldn't find a video of it so I'll try and explain.
In Halo 2 the lunge was huge, yeah, but for some reason it was more accurate. It seems like in Halo 3/Reach whenever you melee someone it like auto centers at their chest, and the lunge hitbox seems bigger, meaning if you're near someone, not pointing at them, and melee, it will still lunge toward them and hit them.
In Halo 2 you were able to crouch dodge a melee, meaning you would run to someone, melee them once, crouch, their melee would fly over you, (in Halo 3 and Reach your melee would just auto aim itself into them regardless if you're reticle was on them.) and then you deliver the second melee to win.
I thought it was cool.
I did that to annoy you and give you nightmares.
I meant Super Slayer 
No lol.
The one thing that I never understood why they took out. Thought it made melee battles way more fun and interesting.
Yes.
I wouldn't really want to see button combos in a shooter, just because that isn't the kind of experience I am looking for when I'm playing a shooter. Button combos, in my opinion, are for fighting games; and I don't even particularly like them there.
However the melee system from 2, and melee dodge, I would like to see come back, because it adds depth to an otherwise massively simple melee system. Jump-melee's doing more damage, dodging like you said, etc.
Wow thank you for posting this! I just got finished looking over the Halo 3 Flood Alien Level Autopsy, it was very very interesting. Moving onto
Design In Detail
Author: Jaime Griesemer (Gameplay Design Lead)
Should be interesting as well. He talks about changing the time between shots for the sniper from 0.5 to 0.7 seconds in halo 3.
edit: damn it, didn't notice that the link was to design in detail. I skimmed your post and saw the link.
I rarely burst out laughing when looking at a picture, but I did at this.
The Librarian
Banned
The downed Phantom, near the two Grunts with the turrets and right before the huge bowl in front of the Cartographer wall, is more lively than other wreckage. Previous downed Phantoms are inert, only allowing you to hear Covenant communication channels. This one does that while making explosion noises (and visible debris); it's coming apart before your eyes. Thought it was a cool additional detail.
Nah they are fine in fighting games, I mostly just don't really enjoy fighting games.
Also Arthur Gies talking about how the weapon sounds in H4 are going to tear your arm off (and are the most testicular of all Halo gun sounds, lol), and sounded wrong in the streams. Weird issue.
electricpirate
Member
The "Button combos" argument highlights just how silly the skill gap argument gets. Mainly it's conflating two seperate concepts
1) What makes a game take more skill?
2) What do I find fun in the game?
Yes, button combo's take skill, they require a specific sort of skill that's not normally part of FPS games. The Halo 2 Button combos also supplanted other forms of skill, reducing the need to time or bait melees (or even do the Melee dodge you are talking about).
But then again, those are the exact same arguments that apply to something like bloom. Bloom requires a layer of understanding beyond "Just pull the trigger." You have to balance, range, control, your enemies health, your health, risk and reward, and how it affects the auto aim systems, all while keeping a guy's head dead to rights. It adds a ton of skill, but it has negative affects in other areas, it makes multi kills harder to pull off etc. But people round these parts don't like it (and they have good reasons not to like it, I"m not here to dispute that you don't have legit reasons for hating on bloom).
This is why the argument over "Skill gap" always ends up in sillyness, people end up just picking up things that made them feel powerfull in the old games, and argue that it increases the skill gap.
1) What makes a game take more skill?
2) What do I find fun in the game?
Yes, button combo's take skill, they require a specific sort of skill that's not normally part of FPS games. The Halo 2 Button combos also supplanted other forms of skill, reducing the need to time or bait melees (or even do the Melee dodge you are talking about).
But then again, those are the exact same arguments that apply to something like bloom. Bloom requires a layer of understanding beyond "Just pull the trigger." You have to balance, range, control, your enemies health, your health, risk and reward, and how it affects the auto aim systems, all while keeping a guy's head dead to rights. It adds a ton of skill, but it has negative affects in other areas, it makes multi kills harder to pull off etc. But people round these parts don't like it (and they have good reasons not to like it, I"m not here to dispute that you don't have legit reasons for hating on bloom).
This is why the argument over "Skill gap" always ends up in sillyness, people end up just picking up things that made them feel powerfull in the old games, and argue that it increases the skill gap.
Blue Ninja
Member
"Escape the flood containment facility on 343 Guilty Spark in less than 21 minutes? Sure, I can do that, piece of cake!"
*ends up getting lost*
*ends up getting lost*
I wrote a thread on multiplayer balance and skill over at MLG. Its here if you want to read it.
Basically, balance and skill are synonymous; a balanced game is one that proportionally rewards a players skill.
I'm not a huge fan of the button combos in Halo 2. The only reason they were "acceptable" in the end was because they were practically the only area where players could find some small semblence of a skill gap. The shooting skill in that game was so low that melee combat, via button combos, was the only way for a player to differentiate themselves.
The entire game, at a competitive level, centered around the button combos, and I'm not a big fan of that in a shooting game. I'm okay with button combos that are secondary, like backpack reloading, but not ones where the entire game hinges on them.
thezerofire
Banned
including the
3D Glasses, and now I need to scour my house to find my pair
Except that doesn't make them synonymous, it makes one a product of the other.
Edit: LOL I totally remember reading this back in the day... it's a good read for those interested.
They didn't supplant them. First of all, no one at high level play baits melees. Melees happen because of the range of the encounter. No one goes around the corner, hides, and waits to melee someone. Also, the melee dodge was used with BXB a lot. But you could also use the melee dodge to beat someone trying to BXB you.
However, people did bait for BXR's. You're in a firefight, you take cover momentarily to reload, wait for it... THEN BXR TO THE FACE. Since you could only BXR with a full mag.
The combos only added options to combat. They were used in tandem with good aiming, good strafing, good timing, good positioning...
I'm just gonna put out there that I don't expect them back and I'm not going to campaign for them to be back. But they did add a big layer of depth and skill to the game at a high level of play, and I don't think you can possibly dispute that. I get that people don't like them... they were glitches, messed up the games intended design, but they did a lot for MLG and the like.
This is really good.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Cryptum Battle Mode Engaged - FUD Podcast Episode Six
Issac, Dave and Dani talk about Halo 4′s E3 showing from a fictionally skewed perspective and offer up some insights and speculation.
Streaming | MP3 | iTunes | Feedburner
(Allow some time for iTunes to update)
Issac, Dave and Dani talk about Halo 4′s E3 showing from a fictionally skewed perspective and offer up some insights and speculation.
Streaming | MP3 | iTunes | Feedburner
(Allow some time for iTunes to update)
Except*
Truth lol - working and typing on forums is awful for proper Engrish.
Reppin' the brand, eh?
Reppin' the brand, eh?
Just wait 'till you listen to the actual thing. Dani whores out the site like no tomorrow
No, they were implemented to make the game easier. If they were truly necessary for latency issues, then every game with smaller hitboxes and lower AA (ie, every game in existence) would have registration issues, right?
xxjuicesxx
Member
Playing any game is just a string of button combos. The difference is when playing its much more ad lib n a button combo is much more structured kind of a stupid line to draw in my opinion I'd rather have them implemented as In game mechanics so there's mOre depth to the mp n more focus on individual skill.
HiredN00bs
Member
Should we make the mechanics so difficult so that only a miniscule subset of the community can use them effectively? For instance, should we lock all sensitivities to 10, remove all aim assist, and increase the movement speed to 4x? There's an index to these things, and it sounds like you simply don't like where it has been set.
Sounds like you like you some Smash Bros.
No, there's a fine balance between keeping a game skillful and allowing the majority of players to play it to some degree. However, there are many more subtle and useful ways to do it than to dumb down the aiming.
Take basketball for example. They could make the hoops a centimeter wider than the diameter of the ball to have the most skillful game possible. Of course, they don't do that because then the game would be terribly slow and boring. Skillful, yes, but boring.
On the other side of that, they don't make the hoop 30 feet wide either. Every player doesn't need to make every basket for the game to be enjoyable.
You're correct, I don't like where the index for aiming in Halo has been set recently. I strongly disagree that making the aiming harder would have an adverse affect on the general populace's enjoyment of the game for a multitude of reasons.
Must be why I like it so much, it subconsciously reminds me of home.
Although it was probably Omaha Beach
Was there any hints or suggestions of Guardian besides the awesome jungle in the campaign demo?
Steelyuhas
Member
The hints are just that Kyle wants the map in the game.
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