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[PaulloDEC]

That's for a very good reason. Making video games requires enough resources that you make games to satisfy the demands of your customers, not the self-important demands of the developer.

How dare those self-important developers try to make the art they want to make.

There is little to no evidence that a substantial number of players care about dealing with serious topics in a ~$60 video game.

Indeed. The sooner the gaming community grows up and accepts that the medium can be more than shooty-bangs with Michael Bay-grade storytelling the better.

I expect the utmost maturity in dealing with these serious issues from Ninja Theory..

Who was it at Ninja Theory who made that slide? How many other employees knew about it? Did the ones who knew think it was okay? Who approved it? How does the studio as a whole feel about it looking back?

Everyone loves to cite that picture as a kind-of ultimate Ninja Theory shutdown, and while I agree that it was shitty and dumb, it makes no sense to use it that way without knowing the answers to some of those questions.

 

[RM8]

How dare those self-important developers try to make the art they want to make.

Hey now, I'd say gamers strongly defend the developer's vision.

When it involves animu tits, that is.

 

[Harlequin]

I'm still wishing good things for this game, but I started getting The Order vibes off of it. By that I mean that the devs were more concerned about the "art" of the game than with its gameplay. I don't think it will be as bad as The Order, but I do think it'll be close enough that it's wise to wait for reviews about its gameplay before buying.

That's for a very good reason. Making video games requires enough resources that you make games to satisfy the demands of your customers, not the self-important demands of the developer. There is little to no evidence that a substantial number of players care about dealing with serious topics in a ~$60 video game. The tech would have to mature enough that the price would come way down and the capabilities go way up before that could realistically happen.

Good thing this won't be a 60$ game then.

 

[EventHorizon]

How dare those self-important developers try to make the art they want to make.

They can make whatever they want. However when they want us to buy it, they'd better better make what we want.

Indeed. The sooner the gaming community grows up and accepts that the medium can be more than shooty-bangs with Michael Bay-grade storytelling the better.

The medium is limited by its tech. A truly big budget highly narrative focused game is too linear and costs too much. For narrative content I'd much rather watch a TV show for free or pay $13 for a movie than pay $60 for a game. A movie and/or TV show would deliver that narrative content far better than the game ever could. The reality is that action/sci-fi/fantasy/horror are all much easier to do in game than drama since those more directly integrate with gameplay. Nobody wants to pay $60 for a "very special" game featuring only dramatic content that doesn't involve a buch of action too.

At some point in the future, the cost of high quality gaming narrative content will drop below that of cinematic content. At that point games can be inexpensively made that contain enough content so that simply choosing which to experience will contain enough gameplay to justify a $60 game purchase. Until then, just give me something to shoot.

 

[Paganmoon]

This is why so few developers dare to make games that deal with serious topics.

I think it's going to be the biggest hurdle for this game, really. When they started talking about wanting to tackle mental health problems, in a more serious tone, my first thought was, "holy shit they're going to get hammered".
In a worse case scenario, it's going to get hammered from the larger gaming community for being too serious and "pretentious", and at the same time getting hammered from mental health professionals and sufferers, as making light of their condition, and not treating it with enough respect.

I hope they succeed with what they want to do, though one thing that speaks against them on this is that they didn't set out to tackle these issues from the start, and that it sort of grew over time, and that could pose a problem.

 

[Harlequin]

At some point in the future, the cost of high quality gaming narrative content will drop below that of cinematic content. At that point games can be inexpensively made that contain enough content so that simply choosing which to experience will contain enough gameplay to justify a $60 game purchase. Until then, just give me something to shoot.

Again, they've already said that the game won't cost 60$.

 

[EventHorizon]

Good thing this won't be a 60$ game then.

I'm talking about two different things. First, what I think the quality of Hellblade will be, and second is the viability of purely narrative focused games. I don't think Hellblade will be a purely narrative focused game so the part of my comment you replied to doesn't apply.

What I said was that I get the sense the devs of Hellblade have been far more concerned with the art of Hellblade than its gameplay. I've watched a good number of their dev diaries, and gameplay seems like a distant second priority. They stared with an artistic vision of the game and then tried to backfill gameplay. I don't know how true that is, but it is the impression I came away with. It is why I soured on the game. Btw, I am very impressed with the artistic tech they have developed, but none of it gives me the impression of a game I actually want to play. That was the similarity I was making with The Order 1886.

 

[PaulloDEC]

They can make whatever they want. However when they want us to buy it, they'd better better make what we want.

I like to think that we owe it to ourselves to take chances on titles that don't fall within our usual areas of interest. If we only ever play the things we like, we'll never find new things to like.

The medium is limited by its tech. A truly big budget highly narrative focused game is too linear and costs too much. For narrative content I'd much rather watch a TV show for free or pay $13 for a movie than pay $60 for a game. A movie and/or TV show would deliver that narrative content far better than the game ever could. The reality is that action/sci-fi/fantasy/horror are all much easier to do in game than drama since those more directly integrate with gameplay. Nobody wants to pay $60 for a "very special" game featuring only dramatic content that doesn't involve a buch of action too.

At some point in the future, the cost of high quality gaming narrative content will drop below that of cinematic content. At that point games can be inexpensively made that contain enough content so that simply choosing which to experience will contain enough gameplay to justify a $60 game purchase. Until then, just give me something to shoot.

It sounds like you're only interested in narrative-driven content when it fits the big-budget AAA mould, which is something I'm very much in disagreement with. I've had fantastic story-driven experiences in everything from mobile games to indies to mid-budget to AAA, and I hope developers in all of those realms continue to explore those kinds of experiences.

I think it's going to be the biggest hurdle for this game, really. When they started talking about wanting to tackle mental health problems, in a more serious tone, my first thought was, "holy shit they're going to get hammered".
In a worse case scenario, it's going to get hammered from the larger gaming community for being too serious and "pretentious", and at the same time getting hammered from mental health professionals and sufferers, as making light of their condition, and not treating it with enough respect.

I'm certain you're right about this. You can never please everyone, especially when you're trying to break new ground to some degree. I have nothing but admiration for the attempt though.

I hope they succeed with what they want to do, though one thing that speaks against them on this is that they didn't set out to tackle these issues from the start, and that it sort of grew over time, and that could pose a problem.

While that's true, I think it'll be hard for anyone to argue that they didn't approach the subject with care and respect. Their video blogs demonstrate pretty clearly how their approach became much more nuanced and responsible once the idea of Senua's mental illness took shape.

 

[Paganmoon]

I'm certain you're right about this. You can never please everyone, especially when you're trying to break new ground to some degree. I have nothing but admiration for the attempt though.



While that's true, I think it'll be hard for anyone to argue that they didn't approach the subject with care and respect. Their video blogs demonstrate pretty clearly how their approach became much more nuanced and responsible once the idea of Senua's mental illness took shape.

Oh yes, I agree, I think it's admirable what they're trying to do, but it's going to be a hard rope to walk, between "gamey" experience and tackling serious issues.

About the possible problem with the game evolving to where they are now with mental issues, as opposed to having that as a clear idea from the get-go, I see it mostly as an issue if they try to mold mental health issues to fit the gameplay the set out to build from the start. And yes, from the dev diaries it does seem they're trying to treat it with respect, and drop gameplay ideas that don't really fit with the direction they've chosen now, and hopefully it translates well for the finished product.

 

[Black_Stride]

Man the model in the cover is waaaay better than the actual in-game rabbit.

Kinda rude.


Its actually a Ninja Theory employee who they face/body captured, not a professional actress or fully original character so shes doing a damn good job and they really do know how to cut back on costs. Just get one of us to do the work.

P.S She is awesome.

P.P.S She does the mo-cap and her actual job at the same time essentially.

On Topic
Been following this game since its announcement really looking forward to it.
Hope it comes out this year, my GTX 1070 is ready for this.

Been an Ninja Theory fan since i got Kung Fu Chaos demo in an OXM magazine, been following their asses ever since.

 

[EventHorizon]

I like to think that we owe it to ourselves to take chances on titles that don't fall within our usual areas of interest. If we only ever play the things we like, we'll never find new things to like.

I have a ton of options for my free time that I know I will enjoy doing. I'm not going to buy a game that I don't think I'll really like. I am sure not going to pay full price at release on such a game. I might pick up an interesting but questionable game once it hits impulse buy territory, but at that price point the devs aren't making any money from me. So we are back to my original point. If a dev wants me to buy their game, they had better make a game I want to play.

It sounds like you're only interested in narrative-driven content when it fits the big-budget AAA mould, which is something I'm very much in disagreement with. I've had fantastic story-driven experiences in everything from mobile games to indies to mid-budget to AAA, and I hope developers in all of those realms continue to explore those kinds of experiences.

I'm not trying to tell you what you should like, just like you shouldn't try to tell me what I should like. If there is a large enough market out there to support AAA narrative driven games then that's great. My point is that I don't think that market exists, and any game developer chasing it is making a very risky gamble. If I were a game developer, I certainly wouldn't try to do it.

---

I want to say again that my discussion of game narrative doesn't really apply to Hellblade. I think the game's "serious" tone is just a device used to introduce fantasy elements into a more grounded world. My concern for the game is that I have yet to see any gameplay reasons why I'd want to play it even though I've heard numerous discussions about the "art" of the game. No Man's Sky is another game that set off the similar warning bells, but in that case replace "art" and "mental illness" with "maths" and "procedural generation". I don't think Hellblade will be as bad as NMS. I just think so far it looks "meh".

 

[harriet the spy]

I expect the utmost maturity in dealing with these serious issues from Ninja Theory..

I don't understand - what were they going for with that pic?

 

[PaulloDEC]

I don't understand - what were they going for with that pic?

IIRC they were trying to make the claim that old Dante came across as camp or flamboyant or something, which they were illustrating using a shot from Brokeback Mountain (which at the time had that whole "gay cowboys" public perception going on). It was pretty much saying "Old Dante acts and dresses like a gay guy, isn't that totally lame?!" People were understandably pissed off.

I believe it was part of a clumsy attempt to explain how new Dante differed from old.

 

[Harlequin]

IIRC they were trying to make the claim that old Dante came across as camp or flamboyant or something, which they were illustrating using a shot from Brokeback Mountain (which at the time had that whole "gay cowboys" public perception going on). It was pretty much saying "Old Dante acts and dresses like a gay guy, isn't that totally lame?!" People were understandably pissed off.

I believe it was part of a clumsy attempt to explain how new Dante differed from old.

Man, that's a bit disappointing. Sounds kind of unlike what I'm used to hearing from NT. I mean, I even remember Tameem saying that he would've loved to actually make Dante gay. Do we know in which context that slide appeared? Like, was it just an internal presentation or sth? Because then it could've just been one person's opinion rather than a more widespread view within the company.

 

[PaulloDEC]

Man, that's a bit disappointing. Sounds kind of unlike what I'm used to hearing from NT. I mean, I even remember Tameem saying that he would've loved to actually make Dante gay. Do we know in which context that slide appeared? Like, was it just an internal presentation or sth? Because then it could've just been one person's opinion rather than a more widespread view within the company.

I'm fairly sure it wasn't intended to be seen by the public, but beyond that I'm not certain of the details. I doubt it's representative of the company's views, but it's a regrettable piece of behaviour in any case.

 

[grandwizard]

I don't understand - what were they going for with that pic?

It was part of a presentation where they were showing how traditional Dante was old and lame and new Dante was hip and edgy

 

[staticneuron]

Looking at design and facepaint. I wouldn't be surprised if this spiritual successor to HS either has Senua turn out to be Kai, or related to Kai.

 

[Paganmoon]

Looking at design and facepaint. I wouldn't be surprised if this spiritual successor to HS either has Senua turn out to be Kai, or related to Kai.

It could've started out that way, but I think that ship has definitely sailed by now, with how the game has evolved. (even though I've posted pretty much the same as you earlier in the thread)

 

[gabbo]

Because of Enslaved, I will forever have a special place in my heart for Ninja Theory. But real talk though - this game has "dead on arrival" written all over it.

It's got "under the radar, so far under the radar they're spiting dirt" written all over it, to me.

 

[DemWalls]

Who was it at Ninja Theory who made that slide? How many other employees knew about it? Did the ones who knew think it was okay? Who approved it? How does the studio as a whole feel about it looking back?

Everyone loves to cite that picture as a kind-of ultimate Ninja Theory shutdown, and while I agree that it was shitty and dumb, it makes no sense to use it that way without knowing the answers to some of those questions.

I don't understand - what were they going for with that pic?

IIRC they were trying to make the claim that old Dante came across as camp or flamboyant or something, which they were illustrating using a shot from Brokeback Mountain (which at the time had that whole "gay cowboys" public perception going on). It was pretty much saying "Old Dante acts and dresses like a gay guy, isn't that totally lame?!" People were understandably pissed off.

I believe it was part of a clumsy attempt to explain how new Dante differed from old.

Man, that's a bit disappointing. Sounds kind of unlike what I'm used to hearing from NT. I mean, I even remember Tameem saying that he would've loved to actually make Dante gay. Do we know in which context that slide appeared? Like, was it just an internal presentation or sth? Because then it could've just been one person's opinion rather than a more widespread view within the company.

I'm fairly sure it wasn't intended to be seen by the public, but beyond that I'm not certain of the details. I doubt it's representative of the company's views, but it's a regrettable piece of behaviour in any case.

The hate that image gets is way, way overblown. Some people just post it and the others, no context whatsoever, and act as if Ninja Theory (which is not a single person, by the way) started ranting about Dante being horrible, lame and a *f-word*. Which is not the case, obviously. At worst it's a poor joke, really.

Just watch this video, the presentation itself. The first 5 minutes suffice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Pz8WiEW4U

EDIT: Rewatching it made me remember that Talexi's pronunciation is... not very good. But you can understand what he means. He also comments on how Brad Pitt is "cool and sexy" on that Fight Club image, so if I had to guess I wouldn't say he's so aggressively homophobic.

 

[Harlequin]

It was part of a presentation where they were showing how traditional Dante was old and lame and new Dante was hip and edgy

Hm, Seeing it next to those other slides, I'm not so sure if the Brokeback Mountain picture was meant to say "old Dante is so gay". I mean, some words they use to describe new Dante in those slides are "grounded" and "Western" and most of the examples of what they don't want simply have in common that they're very over-the-top and flamboyant, whereas the Brokeback Mountain characters look very grounded. So maybe it's just supposed to show how old Dante doesn't look grounded at all and really stands out in that picture? Or maybe I'm just being to optimistic with that interpretation, I don't know. But I don't think that there's only one possible interpretation of this.

(EDIT: Ah, I see the presentation it's from was linked to above. Will watch it later.)

 

[Kinyou]

It's got "under the radar, so far under the radar they're spiting dirt" written all over it, to me.

Not sure you can call a game that has a Game informer cover story "under the radar"

 

[GavinUK86]

Is rabbit a slur or something?

Slur, no? Just calling someone a rabbit is not bad enough in itself?

At some point in the future, the cost of high quality gaming narrative content will drop below that of cinematic content. At that point games can be inexpensively made that contain enough content so that simply choosing which to experience will contain enough gameplay to justify a $60 game purchase. Until then, just give me something to shoot.

Cool. I think there's a new Call of Duty coming out this year. That'll be right up your alley.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

As a side note, did we ever figure out what the bulk of their staff actually does these days?

They don't seem to have a financial backer for this in particular, so I assume something is keeping them afloat.

I assume they sell pastries on the Venezuelan black market

 

[Harlequin]

Not sure you can call a game that has a Game informer cover story "under the radar"

Evidently you can, it just makes you look uninformed .

 

[gabbo]

Not sure you can call a game that has a Game informer cover story "under the radar"

I suppose it GAF tunnel vision. It doesn't get much talk here by comparison, and I extrapolate, erroneously. Up until this cover story though, and probably a shor time after, I stick to my statement. Gave isn't exactly making the internet go nuts

 

[melkier33]

I suppose it GAF tunnel vision. It doesn't get much talk here by comparison, and I extrapolate, erroneously. Up until this cover story though, and probably a shor time after, I stick to my statement. Gave isn't exactly making the internet go nuts

It's not made for the internet to go nuts. The whole project is to make an indie game with triple A quality.

 

[Spudnik Sweetheart]

Pretty excited for this game. Hope it manages to tackle its themes well.

Blue and orange. Chin down, eyes up.

They did it, they created a AAA title with an indie budget!

Haha, was thinking the same.

Damn nice cover

This is gorgeous though. Wow.

 

[Zackat]

does this have an official release date yet?

 

[TheSpoiler]

Slur, no? Just calling someone a rabbit is not bad enough in itself?



Cool. I think there's a new Call of Duty coming out this year. That'll be right up your alley.

Look, I don't know where he's from, and I don't know what that means in the context of this conversation. Maybe it's insulting, I have no idea. Maybe where ever that person comes from is a more general term for a female without classification of negativity.

My point is, his comment seemed to go either way in terms of calling the actress ugly or not liking the artstyle. It would probably be better to ask him to clarify.

 

[GavinUK86]

does this have an official release date yet?

No, not yet. In a GI video Tameem seems pretty sure it'll be 2017. Just from following development via the YouTube dev diaries, I think it'll be August-November time. Unless something drastic happens before then.

 

[NeoRaider]

How Ninja Theory's Canceled Co-op Game Led To Hellblade And A Bold Future

In this exclusive video interview from Game Informer, Ninja Theory's creative director Tameem Antoniades talks about the transition from working on AAA publisher-backed projects like their scrapped "Razer" to a more experimental future where they publish their own, bold games like Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice.

Very nice interview. Also more Hellblade footage.

 

[BBboy20]

What the hell is going on in here? =/

Anyways...they seem to be a studio on the edge for 10 years now. Never was aware how hectic their beginnings were.

Just call it an independent game? I mean, that what indie means but I get the impression folks get too caught up on this definition considering it's just a hip way of saying that and that saying is here to say so I suppose it's safe to define your cheaply-budgeted AAA title as just "independent"?