Well now it's basically the crux upon which the argument rests
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Holy Balls. The first two Alien movies are amazing.
- Thread starter Ultima_5
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Well now it's basically the crux upon which the argument rests
Multiverse allows for it. Kyle Reese and the various Terminators just come from one or more different timelines, and Kyle Reese's existence isn't purely dependent on John's (they aren't each others' fathers or anything even more ridiculous like that).
That said, this is the sort of thing that time travel stories can never have sewn up completely. You always have to allow some leeway no matter what. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems when you involve time travel.
That said, this is the sort of thing that time travel stories can never have sewn up completely. You always have to allow some leeway no matter what. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems when you involve time travel.
SlipperySlope
Banned
For the next paradox: it's impossible for Kyle Reese to have been sent after the first Terminator. Because after the first Terminator went through, that very millisecond, history should have changed for just that one terminator, with no Kyle Reese. Sarah Connor would have died. The resistance would have failed.
The only way it can make sense is if Kyle Reese and the first Terminator went back at the same exact time. Which the story says they didn't.
So really, none of the movies make sense.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
It can, but only when using a Type Four Timeline.
Only if the timeline operates under Bill & Ted rules with Aristotelian Causality.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
No. Kyle could have gone through days later if he wanted to, so long as the destination time were the same.
SlipperySlope
Banned
That doesn't make sense to me. It was two different transfers, they even started in different spots in 1984.
So how technically could they both go back if the Terminator went first and changed history already?
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Because he didn't change history already. Even though they leave at different times, there is a preset destination time. Skynet could have sent more to arrive at the same time had the resistance not blown the factory. Just know that both Reese and the T800 both arrive at the exact same minute in 1984, because that is the set destination time, regardless of when they left.
SlipperySlope
Banned
I don't get it. How did history not change the moment the first Terminator went back?
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Because Reese stops him from killing Sarah Connor. Read what I wrote above again.
It makes NO difference who leaves first if they're arriving at the same time.
Nappuccino
Member
What he (she?) is saying is that, before Kyle Reese could have gone back in time to stop the terminator, his present timeline would have already changed such that John Connor wouldn't have existed.
It doesn't matter that he is going back to the exact same time because he wouldn't have been able to go back in time at all.
SlipperySlope
Banned
I'm a he, and yeah, this is what I mean.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
I know what he is saying, and I'm telling you that is not the case. The only way it would have instantly changed the future is if there was no possibility of Reese ever going through.
Let me make it easier to understand.
Walk me through what you think happens once the Terminator goes through, from the T800's perspective.
Because as I understand it, you're insinuating that because the T800 goes through first, he has already killed Sarah before Reese goes through the field, which doesn't happen. Why doesn''t it happen? Because as soon as the T800 goes through, lets say he arrives at 1:13am and then starts his mission to find Sarah. Kyle Reese, even though he enters after - also arrives at 1:13am in Los Angeles. Had they stopped Kyle Reese from going through, then yes, the future would have changed instantly. But they didn't, so it doesn't.
Edit: Posting for the new page.
They arrive at the exact same point and then events play out as seen.
I did say I was willing to concede it was ambiguous, but I still feel it's ambiguous on the side of mutable time, and that the movie does everything but outright say it to lead you to that conclusion.
Karma Kramer
Banned
T I M E P A R A D O X
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Why are you talking about Alien in a Terminator thread?
Karma Kramer
Banned
What?
It's a joke. See, this was supposed to be an Alien/s appreciation thread, but now it's a discussion of time travel paradoxes within the Terminator fiction.
Karma Kramer
Banned
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Who?
When?
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Time does not exist.
Different time just means a different state of every variables in the universe.
Therefore time traveling shifts your conciousness into a universe where all the variables are corresponding to your need (therefore traveling back 30 years means the universe's states are so that every being there had done less things, some are alive that are in state "dead" in YOUR reality, etc).
So what happens in Terminator movies is that the "Time Travel" allows an alternate universe to be born where people are succesfully fighting off the Skynet, instead of falling to that threat. But that will exist paralell to all the infinite different realities where things are different.
Also, the past also exist paralell to our current present right now, it is just different vibrations compared to our present. And ALL pasts exists as well. And all future, needless to say. If one state is possible, every state is possible. We are just focusing on our current one.
Different time just means a different state of every variables in the universe.
Therefore time traveling shifts your conciousness into a universe where all the variables are corresponding to your need (therefore traveling back 30 years means the universe's states are so that every being there had done less things, some are alive that are in state "dead" in YOUR reality, etc).
So what happens in Terminator movies is that the "Time Travel" allows an alternate universe to be born where people are succesfully fighting off the Skynet, instead of falling to that threat. But that will exist paralell to all the infinite different realities where things are different.
Also, the past also exist paralell to our current present right now, it is just different vibrations compared to our present. And ALL pasts exists as well. And all future, needless to say. If one state is possible, every state is possible. We are just focusing on our current one.
Sorry, I missed these earlier.
The biggest criticism I typically see about Avatar is that its story is an overly used, worn out trope. I think its quite clear that Cameron's focus on Avatar was the tech and world building, and that's why he went with such a familiar tale, so that viewers would only be stepping into one alien world rather than two (and remember, he had to sell this to FOX).
For the sequels, there are no such constraints. Avatar was the biggest movie ever, so there is no need to "sell" the movie this time. The tech is in place and the world has been created and populated. So there is really no reason this time not to deliver a much better story.
NinjaBoiX
Member
The directors they had, Scott, Cameron, Fincher and Jeunet, you'd think each one would be an absolute scorcher. Sadly, only the first two are true classics. The third is decent, Resurrection is a trainwreck in all honesty. Jeunet's whimsical style really struggled with the subject matter, and as such, a lot of scenes felt utterly incongruous.
Amelie and A Very Long Engagement are utterly beautiful movies though. And Fincher, well, we know what became of him.
*bows*
Mystagogue
Member
When Ripley confronts Burke in the medlab she states that she discovered a communication which proves that HE sent the colonists to the derelict ship. He didn't know it existed until Ripley showed up and told her story to the company execs. but wanted to confirm that it was there so he could somehow exploit it for profit. It's not stated how much time passed between Burke finding out about the alien ship, sending the colonists and the colonists battling the aliens, but it can be assumed to be a matter of many days or a few weeks at least since it seems Ripley had time to "get settled in" and start a new job running loaders. I always also assumed that the colonists did try to call for help but Burke intercept the communications on the other end to keep it from coming to light that he was responsible for getting all those colonists killed, and that he went with the Marines primarily to try to do whatever he could to maintain the cover up and salvage some kind of profit from the debacle.
Not shown onscreen but it's implied he ran in right as Brett was getting carried away by the alien after he was attacked in the big room with all the big machinery and water condensation raining down and saw it happen.
Very interesting explanation. I watched the movie last night and missed some of the details of that conversation. Burke is such a slimeball.
Because I unveiled the fact that I haven't seen many 80s/90s action movies and people gave me some recommenations. Then the terminator talk started up haha
Chuckie
Member
brandonh83
Banned
Bought the standalone Blu-ray of Alien last night... had no idea that it had the 1979 and 2003 cuts of the film, as well as the composer's intended score isolated from the sound effects and the finalized score, isolated, as it appears in the film. That is fucking awesome. I'd rather have isolated scores and stuff like that instead of most of the special features that are commonly found.
sixteen-bit
Member
Lots of love went in to the package, that's for sure. Shame more films don't make use of all dat blu ray storage.
SilentProtagonist
Member
Yeah, they captured it perfectly in AvP2 for PC. Actually that was one of the scariest games I've played (as a marine only).
Basically I was like this kid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC8xP3o7xY4
Yeah, the beeping of the motion sensors is so crucial to the dread of Aliens.
Just watched the Alien DC and Aliens SE for the first time last night. I hadn't seen Alien in a long time so the DC differences didn't stand out to me, but my god it remains so beautiful and well crafted. 1979. Jesus fuck. Aliens I'd seen a million times so I noticed the additions right away, and I liked them all. Nothing out of place or distracting, and adding Ripley's daughter's backstory made her scenes with Newt that much better. I liked the scene showing Newt's family, but the whole colonist sequence could have maybe been a tiny bit shorter.
Seeing people shitting on Aliens because of Newt, or calling it mindless action schlock, or saying it is radically inferior to Alien is depressing. You people are off your rocker. It isn't inferior at all, it's different. It needed to be. And it is brilliantly done. Stereotypical meathead marine dialog? Sure. But when Vasquez grabs Gorman's hand and he puts his hand on top of hers as he detonates that grenade, that simple gesture trumps any corny lines they'd said prior. Hicks and Ripley exchanging first names (another good SE addition). Hicks risking his shit to cut through the grate to save Newt when he could've just keep pushing. There were a lot of very human moments to counterbalance the corny tough guy dialog.
I honestly think Alien and Aliens are equally well crafted films. I think I like the set work a little bit more in Alien, but the Xenomorph is also a bit stiffer in that one. If I had a gun to my head I'd probably say I enjoy Aliens more on repeat viewings just because there is more going on and it stimulates the primitive parts of my brain more. Alien is every bit as good, but it is a lot more sparse. I'd pick Alien to watch with someone who hadn't seen either movie, but if I'm by myself I'd lean towards Aliens. Both are 9s in my opinion.
Also, thanks to that awesome Scullibundo infograph I now am aware that John Connor's foster mom is Vasquez. Having seen both those films countless times I feel like a dunce for never noticing this before.
Just watched the Alien DC and Aliens SE for the first time last night. I hadn't seen Alien in a long time so the DC differences didn't stand out to me, but my god it remains so beautiful and well crafted. 1979. Jesus fuck. Aliens I'd seen a million times so I noticed the additions right away, and I liked them all. Nothing out of place or distracting, and adding Ripley's daughter's backstory made her scenes with Newt that much better. I liked the scene showing Newt's family, but the whole colonist sequence could have maybe been a tiny bit shorter.
Seeing people shitting on Aliens because of Newt, or calling it mindless action schlock, or saying it is radically inferior to Alien is depressing. You people are off your rocker. It isn't inferior at all, it's different. It needed to be. And it is brilliantly done. Stereotypical meathead marine dialog? Sure. But when Vasquez grabs Gorman's hand and he puts his hand on top of hers as he detonates that grenade, that simple gesture trumps any corny lines they'd said prior. Hicks and Ripley exchanging first names (another good SE addition). Hicks risking his shit to cut through the grate to save Newt when he could've just keep pushing. There were a lot of very human moments to counterbalance the corny tough guy dialog.
I honestly think Alien and Aliens are equally well crafted films. I think I like the set work a little bit more in Alien, but the Xenomorph is also a bit stiffer in that one. If I had a gun to my head I'd probably say I enjoy Aliens more on repeat viewings just because there is more going on and it stimulates the primitive parts of my brain more. Alien is every bit as good, but it is a lot more sparse. I'd pick Alien to watch with someone who hadn't seen either movie, but if I'm by myself I'd lean towards Aliens. Both are 9s in my opinion.
Also, thanks to that awesome Scullibundo infograph I now am aware that John Connor's foster mom is Vasquez. Having seen both those films countless times I feel like a dunce for never noticing this before.
Narpas Sword0
Member
Yup. Lol
Nappuccino
Member
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
No. YOU are missing the point. Again, I will ask you to please explain to me what you think happens from the Terminator's point of view as soon as he enters the time displacement field.
Had Skynet blown the factory before Reese could go through, THEN time would change instantly, because Reese can't arrive AT THE SAME TIME as the T800 and stop him. You're arguing that the Terminator going through means that Sarah is automatically dead, when that cannot ever be the case if Reese is allowed to follow him through.
Isn't there a scene of he and Ripley (might have been Lambert) running in just as the xenomorph pulls Brett off screen in the 'Directors Cut'?
I tried to watch Alien Resurrection last night. I tried I really did. I didnt get past the 45 minute mark. It is dreadful. Scyfy TV level tripe. Ugly as sin, terrible dialog. Pitiful characters. Someone above called it a weird French comic book movie. I agree completely. Hell, even the special effects - simple stuff like a flying spacecraft - looks worse than movies from the 1980s. Even the Aliens looked bad - super slimey with weird green gaseous crap spewing out of them. Awful just awful. Can't believe how Hollywood butchered the Ripley character. Aliens 3 is a masterwork compared to it.
I really can't wait for Avatar 2. In the unlikely event the story is really good, then it will be a great movie. If the story sucks, people will create giant graphics here trying to explain away the problems.
Alien is to Aliens as Terminator is to Terminator 2.
First movies were great, and pretty close to flawless. Second movies were great action movies, but had a lot of flaws that had to be ignored.
Alien is to Aliens as Terminator is to Terminator 2.
First movies were great, and pretty close to flawless. Second movies were great action movies, but had a lot of flaws that had to be ignored.
There's a lot in Avatar that didn't tread the path of familiar tropes.
The idea of body-switching was pretty original within mainstream films. I'm aware that there was a sci-fi short story that used the idea some decades before, but EVERY idea within sci-fi can probably be found within some obscure short story that maybe a few thousand people have read. The idea of going back and forth between two worlds and forgetting which one is "real" for you is closer to Twelve Monkeys than to Pocahontas/Ferngully/DwW.
It's a shame the subpar writing distracts everyone from the content in Avatar that was actually pretty new for a film.
The idea of body-switching was pretty original within mainstream films. I'm aware that there was a sci-fi short story that used the idea some decades before, but EVERY idea within sci-fi can probably be found within some obscure short story that maybe a few thousand people have read. The idea of going back and forth between two worlds and forgetting which one is "real" for you is closer to Twelve Monkeys than to Pocahontas/Ferngully/DwW.
It's a shame the subpar writing distracts everyone from the content in Avatar that was actually pretty new for a film.
The idea remind me of Neuromancer, where Case connect himself with Molly, for the mission to retrieve the Flatline.
Bingo.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
That's pretty funny coming from somebody who champions Joss Whedon. One wrote Aliens and the other wrote Alien Resurrection.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Ice cold.
Nappuccino
Member
This makes no logical sense.
If what happens in the past occurs before the future, then what is changed in the past happens before what occurs in the future. As such, anything that happens in the past directly impacts the future.
This means that, because the terminator reached the past first his changes directly change the future before Reese would have been able to do anything. The goal of the T-800 is to wipe out the resistance leader. If John doesn't exist than the resistance doesn't exist. As such, the way in which the terminator changes the past removes the possibly for Reese to get into the time machine.
Remember, the past occurs before the future. The only way Reese could get into the machine is if the T-800 failed anyway or if the resistance thrived without John Conner and Reese was the one selected to go into the time travel machine to save someone else.
In short, which is what i've already said: What happens in the past happens before Reese would have been able to get into the time travel device. The terminator gets to the past first so he changes the past before Reese had the chance to get there.
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