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Horizon criticized by Native American writer for "brave", "savage", other terms

Seems like you can be super-inclusive and incredibly diverse with representation, and people will still find nits to pick.

People wonder why AAA goes full-on bald white space marine, it's super easy and you're going to get criticized anyway, beats going to all the trouble of offering representation and still getting criticized
 
As I mentioned before since this is a game about the far future then the culture isn't borrowing from anything but creating anew. Hence the language, clothing, armor, designs and culture, have very clear and easily understood influences. A complaint about cultural appropriation seems to be made by people who haven't played the game. Almost like one person above who tried to use picture to prove point.

I think you have to be pretty wilful not to notice the striking similarities between the clothing, vocabulary and social structures employed by the folks in this fictional world and that of Native Americans. The problem with this kind of borrowing and remixing is that it just further perpetuates existing stereotypes, unfairly representing distinct groups that actually exist as instances of a fabricated monoculture cooked up by white people for the purpose of entertaining other white people.

I'm not saying art can't borrow from history but when it borrows the culture of people who are still around and still struggling for fair representation the artist in question need to be pretty fucking careful not to further diminish them.
 
Prime research there, Polygon.

This is amazing, not the least because the article/response they are reporting about contains exactly three sentences with the word "Nora":

The protagonist, Aloy of the Nora tribe, is very white, very redheaded, and very much not Native American.

which is the collective noun used for the Nora's warriors

That's why a lot of the people talk about the Nora as being like Vikings

How is it possible to read a single one of these sentences, let alone all three, and think Nora is the name of a particular character? There's speed reading, and then there's straight up not reading.
 
I think you have to be pretty wilful not to notice the striking similarities between the clothing, vocabulary and social structures employed by the folks in this fictional world and that of Native Americans. The problem with this kind of borrowing and remixing is that it just further perpetuates existing stereotypes, unfairly representing distinct groups that actually exist as instances of a fabricated monoculture cooked up by white people for the purpose of entertaining other white people.

I'm not saying art can't borrow from history but when it borrows the culture of people who are still around and still struggling for fair representation you need to be pretty fucking careful not to further diminish them.
Dude no, because assuming the world goes to shit like in horizon...
No manufacturers of clothing or anything we're accustomed to today, we'd have to live off the land... Obviously native tribes through generations have found the best ways to survive when everything must be hunted for and built by hand.

old cultures from all over the world share these similarities to some degree (survival), to say that way of living, that lifestyle can't be sustained by other races, and those that do are misappropriating it...even if it keeps them alive - is racist is extremely shallow and short sighted

Who knows, 1000 years from now our ancestors may be in tribes/gangs/families/etc..

Not to mention, its FUCKING FICTION
 
I think you have to be pretty wilful not to notice the striking similarities between the clothing, vocabulary and social structures employed by the folks in this fictional world and that of Native Americans. The problem with this kind of borrowing and remixing is that it just further perpetuates existing stereotypes, unfairly representing distinct groups that actually exist as instances of a fabricated monoculture cooked up by white people for the purpose of entertaining other white people.

I'm not saying art can't borrow from history but when it borrows the culture of people who are still around and still struggling for fair representation the artist in question need to be pretty fucking careful not to further diminish them.

That's silly. No one owns culture. What is occurring is horizon zero dawn is an imaginary culture inspired by different cultures from around the world. Not just american Indian or native Americans. You can't place a ban on certain cultures just because there are similarities. A bow or bead is not exclusive to a culture nor is the word brave. Otherwise we would never have games like horizon or indivisible. They can do better certainly but using horizon as an example of stereotyping or racism is a terrible example. After playing it, it is one of the most diverse well written games that speaks on so many societal issues such as bigotry, environmental issues, technology etc. I'm speaking especially as someone who is a minority who is tired of people getting offended by silly things like this when that energy can be used to better their community rather than write articles that don't provide a solution, but only talks about the problems, and offers nothing more than that.
 
I think you have to be pretty wilful not to notice the striking similarities between the clothing, vocabulary and social structures employed by the folks in this fictional world and that of Native Americans. The problem with this kind of borrowing and remixing is that it just further perpetuates existing stereotypes, unfairly representing distinct groups that actually exist as instances of a fabricated monoculture cooked up by white people for the purpose of entertaining other white people.

I'm not saying art can't borrow from history but when it borrows the culture of people who are still around and still struggling for fair representation the artist in question need to be pretty fucking careful not to further diminish them.

Hmm. This sorta helps me understand the issue...a little bit more? By stereotypes, do you mean the Braves/Savages/Primitives sorta thing, suggesting that they are all Warriors or violent or technologically primitive? I don't think GG meant anything poorly by the game and in interviews it seems like they tried to have a diverse cast etc, although my exposure to native american culture is little to the point of non-existence so when I see the image...it looks familiar, I guess, but it feels like a mish mash of Native Americans/Viking type etc.

I'm like 20 minutes into the game though, so I don't know if as it goes on the portrayal of people becomes better or worse. It feels like something quite fresh and new and it certainly gets me interested in discovering more about the cultural inspirations behind the game, but it doesn't feel like Native Americans are the only inspiration of course.

I know developers need to be careful when drawing inspiration from cultures that want better representation, but it's probably quite tricky to do that well because unless you have good writing (and by good I mean having individual characters be written with humanity and depth etc) it's really easy to make it seem like you're commenting on a culture vs a person/character/individual, even if that's not your intention. That said I think good writing is what people tend to associate with Obsidian (and with the Lead Writer being ex-Obsidian I feel that's somewhat worth a mention) because characters in their games tend to feel well rounded etc.

From what others have said, not so much from what I've played, it seems like Horizon talks about a myriad of issues that aren't really covered in AAA gaming often and are very important and I don't think anyone has come away from it thinking that the game or the way they talk to each other is a commentary on Native American culture.
 
I wouldn't go so far as outrage, but I've seen several people in indigenous academic circles who are upset (but not surprised) about Horizon.

What GG has done is take cultural traditions from several marginalized groups who suffered under the colonialism and expansionism of white Americans and Europeans, and then gave these traditions to a non-native tribal society in Horizon which GG describes as "primitive" and "savage". This is textbook cultural appropriation. It may not be crassly offensive in the way Chief Wahoo or the Redskins are, but it's definitely appropriation of primarily native (but also other) culture.

With respect to the game and how these words are used, the statement "GG describes Nora as savage" is laughable.
 
Seems like you can be super-inclusive and incredibly diverse with representation, and people will still find nits to pick.

People wonder why AAA goes full-on bald white space marine, it's super easy and you're going to get criticized anyway, beats going to all the trouble of offering representation and still getting criticized
And you can be praised for your inclusiveness and representation and still make small mistakes. Horizon has been praised for its portrayals of women and now it's getting a bit of criticism for the way it uses certain indigenous cultures, and the language used to talk about them.

The game is still doing well. This piece of criticism isn't preventing praise. What the fuck is the problem? We should be welcoming this sort of critical discourse.
 
I think you have to be pretty wilful not to notice the striking similarities between the clothing, vocabulary and social structures employed by the folks in this fictional world and that of Native Americans. The problem with this kind of borrowing and remixing is that it just further perpetuates existing stereotypes, unfairly representing distinct groups that actually exist as instances of a fabricated monoculture cooked up by white people for the purpose of entertaining other white people.

I'm not saying art can't borrow from history but when it borrows the culture of people who are still around and still struggling for fair representation the artist in question need to be pretty fucking careful not to further diminish them.

What stereotypes does Horizon perpetuate?
 
And you can be praised for your inclusiveness and representation and still make small mistakes. Horizon has been praised for its portrayals of women and now it has received a bit of criticism for the way it uses certain indigenous cultures and language used to talk about them.

The game is still doing well. This piece of criticism isn't preventing conversation about its positive aspects. What the fuck is the problem? We should be welcoming this sort of critical discourse.
And people should feel free to voice their opinion on why they don't particulary enjoy this new line of discourse.
 
I find this to be ridiculous, I'm pretty sure there was no malice behind it but people will get offended over anything these days. I mean idk, I just enjoy things without over analyzing it and just getting lost in this gorgeous fictional world without comparing it to real world sensitivies.
 
I will say, I usually try to err on the side of the person issuing the criticism in issues like this...but I feel like this one is kind off the mark (Also, I think if I wanted to be taken seriously, I would post literally anywhere besides Medium, which is almost exclusively a platform for misplaced outrage. Not that I think *this* is outrage either.)

Anyway, I'm not too familiar with Horizon so maybe I've missed something, but from what I've seen nothing about the game specifically points at being Native American imagery to me. It's always looked like a vague mismash of some kind of tribal people. If it were more explicitly supposed to represent Native American people, I would understand taking offense at them being referred to as primitive. But as is, I don't really see a strong resemblance to reach the conclusion the original author did.

Again, haven't played the game and I'm just going by all the trailers and stuff put out for it, but the original essay doesn't seem to strike at much beyond that either?
 
Jesus christ no an exchange of cultures is not simply a US thing oh my lord....

Lol now you're putting words in my mouth
It's a US thing to make a big deal of cultural appropriation. It's not a matter that I've ever seen being discussed here in Europe (not from this angle at least), hence why I didn't even know it was a thing.

Let's talk about the idea that cultural appropriation is a net positive because "exposure" is good and it leads to "appreciation" of appropriated culture. Here's is a concrete example from the game:

18820113896_1633ddae5b_o.0.0.jpg


Question time!

Which group is the game referencing here? Is the outward appearance of these characters faithful to that group? Does the game accurately reflect the social structures of the peoples being referenced? Do you have any idea about their specific customs, tenets and values? Infact did you learn anything about Native American culture that you didn't already know from previous experience with white-washed Hollywood stories about noble savages?

Well, if they stopped making these 'white-washed Hollywood stories' (Horizon is anything but white-washed) and whatnot, exposure would eventually fade. It can be superficial for sure and stuff can be taken out of context, but that goes for everything in media/merchandise. It doesn't prevent others from creating something more accurate - or rather 'complete' - hell it creates more demand for it in the first place. Demand to actually learn more about specific groups, their customs and clothing etc.
But apparantly everything needs to be in proper context, otherwise it's incomplete and nothing but an insult...'do it right or not at all'
 
As someone who is part Native American, Horizon is by far one of the most egregiously offensive games I have ever played.

/sarcasm
 
Seems like you can be super-inclusive and incredibly diverse with representation, and people will still find nits to pick.

People wonder why AAA goes full-on bald white space marine, it's super easy and you're going to get criticized anyway, beats going to all the trouble of offering representation and still getting criticized

Could we please stop thinking that developers and publishers are fragile little snowflakes that can't handle feedback from their customers? Could we please stop thinking that a blog article on Medium will force a multinational company like Sony or a Dutch AAA developer to change their design vision and product?

With the way someone rush to defend developers from a particular genre of criticism you would think that developers are small insecure fragile babies that can't handle simple speech.
 
I was confused I'd never heard "savages" used in the game, then some dude said it and immediately corrected himself as if it's a non-PC word in their universe.
 
Seems like you can be super-inclusive and incredibly diverse with representation, and people will still find nits to pick.

People wonder why AAA goes full-on bald white space marine, it's super easy and you're going to get criticized anyway, beats going to all the trouble of offering representation and still getting criticized

Agreed. Horizon Zero Dawn probably has most diverse representation of any AAA game on the market sans maybe Overwatch and maybe Bioware games. Not once while I so far have I thought anything was culturally insensitive. Hopefully Guerrilla ignores this background noise. I sure as Hell wouldn't want it influences their future designs decisions with this IP.
 
I'm trying to figure out how you can show a tribal society which can't be claimed to be cultural appropriation without it being so fantastic that people can't relate to it.

I don't think it can be done.
 
Like some people have already stated, "savage" and "primitive" are used as derogatory words by elitist and mean characters, and portrayed in a negative light.
"brave" is used in a positive light as a high and honorable rank of the tribe.
I fail to see any issue here.

This.

I see these terms used in proper context in relation to the story and characters.
 
You cannot (and will not) please everybody.

Also, in no context will the use of the word "brave" in a positive light ever be negative or confined to (or relevant only to) a single group of people.
 
Agreed. Horizon Zero Dawn probably has most diverse representation of any AAA game on the market sans maybe Overwatch and maybe Bioware games. Not once while I so far have I thought anything was culturally insensitive. Hopefully Guerrilla ignores this background noise. I sure as Hell wouldn't want it influences their future designs decisions with this IP.

The Native American writer finds offense to the portrayal that indigenous tribes would be what appear after a technological advancement goes wrong as well as the words used in which GG writer actually did research so I truly can't fault him there. He already went well and beyond what most developers or writers would do. He could do better true, but as a underrepresented minority, I applaud his efforts and rather than soley critique the few "mistakes" he made, (using brave do describe warriors as an origin with american indians) I want to encourage more diversity in videogames and that these types of games are needed and can sell. Current cultures are not immune to depictions or representations and should not be.

It bothers me because I would love a video game to depict the culture I was raised in in a capacity like horizon zero dawn did. Representation is great because it gets people talking, Horizon zero dawn's depiction of tribal tribes also aren't exclusively native american which is what I feel the Native American writer failed to understand as well. (And it's not racist or negative.) It's fine for the writer to voice their opinion, but I respectfully disagree with what was stated and frankly, Horizon is a fresh breath of air to the games that feature mainly male protagonists and don't truly talk about issues relevant to the world today. (Though that's not the game's job it's nice Horizon does this.)

I truly feel this article is missing a lot of relevant points and makes perfect sense why some people aren't exactly enthusiastic about a diverse game such as horizon getting criticized for being an SJW game (I have no idea what that means, see gamefaqs) or a racist game. (Which its clearly not)
 
I think you have to be pretty wilful not to notice the striking similarities between the clothing, vocabulary and social structures employed by the folks in this fictional world and that of Native Americans.
My wife didn't see the striking similarities, she's a PhD in Archaeology/Anthropology who specialized in contact period Native American cultures with fur and bead trade as her particular focus (read: she's spent countless hours handling and inspecting actual articles of clothing).

The architecture of the Nora is a straight lift from Scandinavian cultures. The bead work is more aligned with central Asian mountainous groups and Burma. The use of furs and facial hair alignments are also decidedly Scandinavian and/or Slavic/Rus. The symbology employed in both face painting and badges has a heavy Celtic influence.

That's before we even get into the other groups which diverge even further.

This isn't "post-apoc Native Americans!" It is an entirely fictional setting with a broad array of influences. Hell, the aesthetic from character to character is varied enough to prove that. Just because one outfit for the main character happens to be buckskin doesn't suddenly mean the entire thing is trying to ape Native American culture.

The original article had a point in that video game journalists aren't tuned in to minority issues in a meaningful enough way to actually have good conversations about this. The lack of understanding as to what is actually in Horizon, including by said original writer, is exceptionally good proof of this. A few questions pre-release with GG walking people through the inspirations would probably have made all this much clearer, but this is a hobbyist industry incapable of that level of introspection.

But this is what happens when people point the finger at something for being culturally insensitive/cultural appropriation without having actually played the game, like the original article author appears to have done.

It's a no win scenario when people will judge these products based on misunderstanding.

Also, the Atlanta Braves aren't offensive because of the word "Brave". They're offensive because of all the red face mascots they've had over the years and all the full on cultural appropriation carnival show bullshit they still do like the Tomahawk chop. If they called themselves the Atlanta B's and still did all the John Wayne western level bullshit in the stands during games they'd be just as offensive.

I'm trying to figure out how you can show a tribal society which can't be claimed to be cultural appropriation without it being so fantastic that people can't relate to it.

I don't think it can be done.

By going boiler plate tribal like GG did. It's pretty clear their biggest inspirations were Scandinavian tribal societies of the ~7th to 9th centuries, not Native Americans, at least for the Nora. Which makes sense because they live in a high elevation, mountainous climate.

Can people please learn the difference between adjectives and nouns, if you think brave as a noun has no relation to native Americans, can you please point out any other usage of Brave as a noun besides Native Americans?

It's origin bravo as a noun in 15th century Spanish and Italian language, or it's root Latin barbarus. It's various forms has been used by Europeans to describe individuals living on what they perceive as the fringes of their empires for quite some time. The most recent and popularized is the application to Native Americans, but a word doesn't survive and morph as a noun for about two millennia when no one is using it.
 
Great post Drek. This discussion is bonkers. I'm offended that anyone is offended.
 
Seems like you can be super-inclusive and incredibly diverse with representation, and people will still find nits to pick.

Correct. Game development is an iterative process and you will never get things 100% right on the first try. Game developers shouldn't be afraid of making mistakes and receiving criticism. It's not like the developers are being put in jail. They received criticism and responded. If that's too harsh for a developer - maybe they picked the wrong line of work?

And you can be praised for your inclusiveness and representation and still make small mistakes. Horizon has been praised for its portrayals of women and now it has received a bit of criticism for the way it uses certain indigenous cultures and language used to talk about them.

The game is still doing well. This piece of criticism isn't preventing conversation about its positive aspects. What the fuck is the problem? We should be welcoming this sort of critical discourse.

Thank you.

I find this to be ridiculous, I'm pretty sure there was no malice behind it

Why there so many posts in here talking about intent? Intent don't mean shit when critiquing a piece of art.

Someone, somewhere will get offended by things, always.

And maybe us game developers should do our research and talk to these people during development so that we can avoid it when we feel it's appropriate to avoid it.

Could we please stop thinking that developers and publishers are fragile little snowflakes that can't handle feedback from their customers? Could we please stop thinking that a blog article on Medium will force a multinational company like Sony or a Dutch AAA developer to change their design vision and product?

With the way someone rush to defend developers from a particular genre of criticism you would think that developers are small insecure fragile babies that can't handle simple speech.

This should be stickied on the front page of gaf.

To be quite honest... I find it racist that these people automatically assume anything resembling tribalistic cultures and referred to as "savage" or "primitive" is a dig at Native Americans (esp. when they weren't even mentioned as a demographic from which influence was pulled until this article came out).

Says more about the disposition of those that are offended by this than anything else.

Did the Native American writer say anywhere in her article that she thought they were intentionally being offensive? You can still make something offensive without intending to. Why are we still talking about intent 50 years after Death of the Author was written?
 
I read her "essay" but have a hard time determining if she was harping on the game itself or writers who don't question whatever it is she found offensive. Also like others in the thread she is coming at this from a very self centered view, native Americans aren't the only aboriginal culture/society in the world. This is just internet hand-wringing for nothing.
 
First time I've ever heard of "brave" being a word to describe native Americans.

Always hear it being used as a synonym for courageous.

On the note of the cultural stuff. Are these cultural aspects exclusive to native Americans?
 
First time I've ever heard of "brave" being a word to describe native Americans.

Always hear it being used as a synonym for courageous.

On the note of the cultural stuff. Are these cultural aspects exclusive to native Americans?

To answer your top question, it has been used to describe warriors. Specifically in native american culture. Yes they could have used another word, but the writer from GG felt it had no derogatory connotation to it after researching it.

To answer your second question, no, its not exclusive to native americans and it's pretty silly for any native american to assume the culture in Horizon Zero Dawn is entirely based on native american culture. (It's not.)
 
First time I've ever heard of "brave" being a word to describe native Americans.

Always hear it being used as a synonym for courageous.

On the note of the cultural stuff. Are these cultural aspects exclusive to native Americans?
Ever heard of the Atlanta Braves?

latest
 
Pretty sure Guerrilla Games can handle this criticism and they don't need anyone white-knighting for them. It's not even a dig at the game, just the use of terms with baggage used within it.

It's ridiculous anyone buys into the notion that the reward for being inclusive and mindful of real-life cultures is that you suddenly become criticism-proof. Yet here we are.
 
Pretty sure Guerrilla Games can handle this criticism and they don't need anyone white-knighting for them. It's not even a dig at the game, just the use of terms with baggage used within it.

It's ridiculous anyone buys into the notion that the reward for being inclusive and mindful of real-life cultures is that you suddenly become criticism-proof. Yet here we are.

This is silly. We can criticize the Native American writer without being "white-knights' for Guerrilla Games. Her argument just isn't sound. She goes off tangent that game reviewers should be held accountable and make more of an effort calling out these social issues in video games. But truly who are they or we to call out these "issues"? (if they are issues, we don't know and how should reviewers know? It's quite difficult!) We are not the ambassadors for Native American cultures nor is the game specifically and only Native American Culture. The game takes inspiration from many places and the native american writer falsely assumes that it is only native american culture being "taken". And regarding "taking" culture. You can't really "take" culture. You don't "own" culture. You can be native american but you can't speak for all native american people. This game has elements that inspire it but it is not stealing or taking anything, nor are you losing anything. At my university, all the students there who are native american have no issue with this game, but that's fine, the writer can be upset about it. But we can criticize the writer's argument just as well as she can criticize the developers for moving along with the term "brave" when they already did their research (even though we falsely assume they didn't.)

The solution or call to action that should've been provided is that it is great that video games are making great strides in diversity. But more work needs to be done to provide great examples that are researched more throughly. Then to provide examples of games that do this. Instead, even on her twitter account, she laughs about the whole thing and fails to acknowledge or understand why people are upset that this game is being attacked.

I feel her whole article was seeking attention more than addressing the problems in our society and issues.
 
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