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Horizon criticized by Native American writer for "brave", "savage", other terms
- Thread starter KyleOnTheRun
- Start date
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
America is so used to being the center of the world and the apex of pop culture that the very idea that other peoples independently dared use leather from animals and feathers from birds without their consent baffles them.
And that vision of the world leaks of course to its opressed people. That's why you have pan-Africanists claiming everything is really a black invention, and why you have this bullshit.
Because let's face it, the article stems from the flawed assumption that Aloy and her pals are indeed based on Native Americans.
It's not like the 95% of the World's population are not American, the 99.9% are not native Americans, and ALL of those other people happen to have ancestors who were hunters-gatherers.
I don't know if it's the case of the game as I have not played it, but being a ficticious culture doesn't give you a free pass when it's a clear analogue.
Free pass on what?
They're not trying to actually depict the culture of native Americans and thus they make no statement about native Americans and thus don't perpetuate any harmful and bad stereotypes about native Americans, which is what cultural appropriation is all about.
Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
It's an interesting perspective. As an aside, would a post-apocalyptic society not appropriate previous cultures and integrate them - both respectfully and otherwise - anyway?
I always assumed Horizon was supposed to be depicting this kind of ham-fisted human approach to rebuilding, in a kind of Planet of the Apes way.
nb - I've yet to play it.
I always assumed Horizon was supposed to be depicting this kind of ham-fisted human approach to rebuilding, in a kind of Planet of the Apes way.
nb - I've yet to play it.
It clearly isn't getting a 'free pass' to criticism, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist. And regardless, the developers are still free to do what they want with this criticism.
And it's an analogue to any of the thousands tribes and hunter-gatherer groups that have been on Earth. Not sure why the author of the essay thinks the game explicitly and inherently relates to native American culture.
Personally, I always saw the game more as analogue to a prehistoric way of life. The game is like a possible scenario of Einstein's quote "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones".
I'm somewhat conflicted on this.
I understand the main point of criticism, but it falls apart for me because Horizon is not about Native Americans, Native American Culture, or representing those people / that culture. It is about a fictional future post-apocalypse culture that is not directly related to any past or currently existing culture and as such nothing in Horizon is intended as commentary on ( or representation of ) past or currently existing cultures or peoples.
I'd more likely agree with the criticism if there were clear attempts at co-opting specifically Native American cultural elements, or if they specifically referenced Native American culture or depicted Native American culture or people in a stereotypical / trope-ey / offensive way, but so far none of those things are true about Horizon. Yes, the fictional future culture is a mixture of elements from past / existing cultures and fictional elements ( though I honestly struggle to think up a specific element that I would directly link to Native Americans or their culture - so far it seems to be based in different cultures from all around the world ); but through that it is intended to be it's own thing, not a commentary on those past cultures or specific elements from those past cultures.
I personally don't see an issue with the way these words were used in this game specifically ( though to be fair, I'm not even halfway yet ). The game is not about indigenous people and the words are not used to describe specifically indigenous people. Dia feels that the game is about indigenous people but I just can't agree with that. Perhaps this is part ignorance from me on the historical significance of those words, but even then; the words are not used in that context in this game.
I do agree it is fair to criticize that ignorance if it is a factor.
Side note; I'd appreciate if certain people didn't come in and claim 'outrage culture' when faced with criticism - and that includes Horizon's main writer.
I understand the main point of criticism, but it falls apart for me because Horizon is not about Native Americans, Native American Culture, or representing those people / that culture. It is about a fictional future post-apocalypse culture that is not directly related to any past or currently existing culture and as such nothing in Horizon is intended as commentary on ( or representation of ) past or currently existing cultures or peoples.
I'd more likely agree with the criticism if there were clear attempts at co-opting specifically Native American cultural elements, or if they specifically referenced Native American culture or depicted Native American culture or people in a stereotypical / trope-ey / offensive way, but so far none of those things are true about Horizon. Yes, the fictional future culture is a mixture of elements from past / existing cultures and fictional elements ( though I honestly struggle to think up a specific element that I would directly link to Native Americans or their culture - so far it seems to be based in different cultures from all around the world ); but through that it is intended to be it's own thing, not a commentary on those past cultures or specific elements from those past cultures.
I personally don't see an issue with the way these words were used in this game specifically ( though to be fair, I'm not even halfway yet ). The game is not about indigenous people and the words are not used to describe specifically indigenous people. Dia feels that the game is about indigenous people but I just can't agree with that. Perhaps this is part ignorance from me on the historical significance of those words, but even then; the words are not used in that context in this game.
I do agree it is fair to criticize that ignorance if it is a factor.
Side note; I'd appreciate if certain people didn't come in and claim 'outrage culture' when faced with criticism - and that includes Horizon's main writer.
This game mixes a lot of cultures. With the prominent ones reminding me of Vikings culture and Native American culture. Its a wonderful looking game and could you imagine if they didn't use these traits? I'm sorry I'd rather play a game that is more interesting, and funnily enough you don't see northern Europe complaining...
dragonfart28
Banned
People seem to be disagreeing about something they actually agree about.
dragonelite
Member
this...
Not like most cultures went through a hunter-gatherer stage in their development.
I'm not sure Horizon was the best game to tie this article on, but I think its quite relevant in a broader sense.
The Old Republic's use of "savage" as a descriptor for some "tribal" style enemies I thought was unfortunate, for example. I don't think this was tied particularly to native americans, but it seemed to be very much adopting uncritically a colonialist mindset
The Old Republic's use of "savage" as a descriptor for some "tribal" style enemies I thought was unfortunate, for example. I don't think this was tied particularly to native americans, but it seemed to be very much adopting uncritically a colonialist mindset
Huw_Dawson
Member
"You shouldn't use that word because it offends me", without proving proof of actual harm, is a very good example of how people who actually claim to be socially liberal (i.e. have read and understand On Liberty or similar texts) actually are social conservatives with moralist bents.
This is clearly not a game about Native Americans. It is a post-apocalyptic video game. To point at something and shriek foul play without cause is to aspire to tyranny.
Actual philosophy as a basis for social and political debate is dead. :|
This is clearly not a game about Native Americans. It is a post-apocalyptic video game. To point at something and shriek foul play without cause is to aspire to tyranny.
Actual philosophy as a basis for social and political debate is dead. :|
Doctor_Thomas
Member
As a non-American, is it odd that I found the general style more in line with something I'd expect of old European tribes than native Americans? I mean, Guerilla is European, would it not be just as likely they'd take influence from, well, Europe than the Americas? The general designs are as such that you could possibly find traits of many cultures within the design.
Boombox On
Member
Is not how offense works.
How about when they're literally calling cultural appropriation on something inspired by an entirely different culture (or in this case array of cultures) than the one they're claiming is being appropriated?
The only things in Horizon clearly related to North American indigenous groups is a bit of buckskin on the main character and the term "brave" as a noun exclusively in that the prevailing usage in the U.S. today as a noun related to a baseball team mascot with history of offensive behavior.
That's it.
The original article had a really good point that video games journalism needs to step up it's game on asking these questions mid-process, but focusing that lens on Horizon dilutes that point almost entirely as it reveals that the author is working from an opposite and equally uninformed position.
The depressing thing is that because video game journalists can't be bothered to ask more probing questions and because people like the author in question can't be bothered to actually play the games and evaluate objectively themselves we miss out on what could otherwise be an educational assessment of the source cultures that inspired the aesthetic of Horizon.
I'll love a world where a VG journalist asked GG about this in a serious and professional manner months ago (not shouting at them during an E3 party) and then putting together an article outlining the heavy Slavic Rus influences in the Nora matriarch design, the clearly Scandinavian architecture and why they felt it fit with the geography of the Nora's lands, their inspiration for each tribal group, etc..
But we don't get to have that because VG journalists aren't aware enough to ask. But on the way to putting forth that very legitimate criticism of the industry the author of the original article got lost in the middle and we wound up with a discourse focused on what's wrong with Horizon, not how to have a more professional and culturally aware gaming press.
The Artisan
Member
sony did have a native american character in the form of delsin rowe in infamous, although it was a made up tribe called the okomish. i think it would've been cool if Aloy was of Native American heritage even though horizon takes place in the opposite span of time - future, not the past
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
I don't think that GG using the term Braves is an issue, but that's my opinion and I think it's perfectly okay to disagree with it. That's what discourse is all about.
What I do find absurd is something that's not necessarily unique to some of the comments I've seen surrounding this article, and that is the whole idea that tribe culture is a Native American concept. It's not. Even disregarding Africa and Australasia, before the Roman conquest of Europe, the continent was made up of primitive tribes who ruled and fought for territory, living in settlements and villages, worshipping deities and the like. Britain was like this especially, so I don't like the idea that white characters don't belong in tribal settings. It's ludicrous.
What I do find absurd is something that's not necessarily unique to some of the comments I've seen surrounding this article, and that is the whole idea that tribe culture is a Native American concept. It's not. Even disregarding Africa and Australasia, before the Roman conquest of Europe, the continent was made up of primitive tribes who ruled and fought for territory, living in settlements and villages, worshipping deities and the like. Britain was like this especially, so I don't like the idea that white characters don't belong in tribal settings. It's ludicrous.
entremet
Member
Well it is by a Native American writer.
If you have any experience with academic writing about video games you'll know that criticising and unpacking cultural material isn't some controversial or adversarial thing.
Everything is worth discussing. Every work of art has a social context today can be productively examined.
I mean, you want to talk about philosophy... Slavoj Zizek does this kind of thing with movies all the time. It's not an attack on movie fans or creators.
The fact is that people get defensive and dismissive of critiques like the one in op. That's not critics over analyzing things, it's many video game fans lacking the basic context and education (and sometimes maturity) to take part in this specific kind of discussion.
Cultural Appropriation...
Not just developers taking inspirations in multiple cultures...
Let's stop eating pizza, as we're not italians (or, if some articles I've read are right, egyptians) and not part of their culture.
I'll never understand this term and how it's a problem at all.
Not just developers taking inspirations in multiple cultures...
Let's stop eating pizza, as we're not italians (or, if some articles I've read are right, egyptians) and not part of their culture.
I'll never understand this term and how it's a problem at all.
Tye The Czar
Member
Yep. Pretty much this.
It's incredibly infantile to assert that games can be art, but then be completely offended by criticism of said art.
And yes, I think being offended by criticism of a created work is far, far worse than someone being offended by, say, use of traditional gendered pronouns or someone being white and male. The latter two can be annoying, yes, but the former implies a deeper defensiveness.
As many others have said, the game is a mashup of elements, so it's really hard to say cultural appropriation per se BUT...
Every time I'm forced to watch a cutscene I get this really gross feeling. Maybe they tried to not play into specific cultures, but what we got instead was this overall broad 'civilized white man idea of tribalism'. I realize it's a fantasy/sci-fi setting but the 'society' in the story feels like they just half-assed every aspect and didn't even try to look at real early societies as a model. Maybe watched Dances With Wolves and read a couple early fantasy novels kind of level. I feel like reading a few anthropology textbooks might have done them more good instead.
Offensive, I'm not sure about. But embarrassing as hell, a definite yes.
Every time I'm forced to watch a cutscene I get this really gross feeling. Maybe they tried to not play into specific cultures, but what we got instead was this overall broad 'civilized white man idea of tribalism'. I realize it's a fantasy/sci-fi setting but the 'society' in the story feels like they just half-assed every aspect and didn't even try to look at real early societies as a model. Maybe watched Dances With Wolves and read a couple early fantasy novels kind of level. I feel like reading a few anthropology textbooks might have done them more good instead.
Offensive, I'm not sure about. But embarrassing as hell, a definite yes.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I would have to play the game before I can comment. But I rolled my eyes at the lead writers "everything is offensive on the internet" comment. Everything before that was reasonable but then kt just came off as disingenous
BossDarkseid
Member
You can be pretty sure they did research real early societies, as you put it, and I think the lead writer even suggests as much in his broader reply (at least, that's how I interpreted it). Doing tons of research - which they would have done - doesn't mean the execution can't be messed up at times. Is there a particular example of a cutscene that makes you feel this way? I'm suuuuper early into the game and am trying to finish up a variety of assignments, but I find this discussions intriguing + enlightening.
Yeah, I sorta suspect that's one of those "poor choice of words" moments that's probably somewhat inevitable after however many years and horrible hours they've been working on the game.
Michael Chu, the lead writer of Overwatch, gave a talk at GDC and mentioned that being more inclusive can only be a good thing, expands your audience and makes your job easier as a developer (because you're potential market is bigger). He also mentioned that you're bound to make mistakes along the way but if you listen to the fans they will appreciate it and give feedback. Two of Pharah's skins have Native American inspiration and people debated whether that was culltural appropriation, and while say there's a reason for Lucio having hockey skins (the character originally being Canadian and also he's a fan of hockey anyway), we don't know if there's anything similar for Pharah, but I think a lot of people sorta assume that it's a reference to her father's ethnicity as several other characters have those sorts of hints I believe. Could be wrong :/
Whenever we get a Horizon 2, I imagine things will have changed a bit and hopefully for the better. I mean it's not like GG don't want to try and do the "right thing" in that regard as they could have easily gone for a grizzled bald space marine/white dude as the protagonist. Maybe the reason for all of it will become clearer as I progress through the game but it doesn't feel like setting the game in America was really a requirement, but it's kinda interesting to think how different it could be if a sequel was set somewhere radically different.
PaineReign
Neo Member
To preface, I have not played Horizon. I am merely commenting in an effort to inform people who are interested in understanding what cultural appropriation means and why it is problematic.
First, for a video game specific example, I recommend checking out Feminist Frequency's video on exotic, ethnic stereotypes.
Also, here is an article that goes more into the issues with cultural appropriation.
Neither of these links directly deal with the issues addressed in this topic, but they help to give more well-rounded information on this topic.
I am by no means an expert on this cultural appropriation, but I to perhaps give a comparison and explain why it is harmful - the portrayal of Native Americans in the Disney film Pocahontas.
It is easy to see the film and view (most) of the Native American characters as positive, at least in the beginning of the film. They are shown as being harmonious with nature, fishing with ease, and living a peaceful life (again, at the beginning).
However, this depiction is problematic because it shows a society that exists today (Native Americans) and reinforced modern stereotypes of their culture - "one with nature" "mystical shaman" "primitive culture". This film that is meant to show a depiction of the past reinforces stereotypes of the present.
For many people, media is the only opportunity they have to learn about people from cultures other than their own. Rather than reading a book or having a deep, personal discussion with a friend with their background rooted in cultures different from one's own, people's views are the result of films, TV, news reports, video games, and music.
To put cultural appropriation another way - white people get to have all the "fun" of other cultures without appreciating the depth of the culture in question.
First, for a video game specific example, I recommend checking out Feminist Frequency's video on exotic, ethnic stereotypes.
Also, here is an article that goes more into the issues with cultural appropriation.
Neither of these links directly deal with the issues addressed in this topic, but they help to give more well-rounded information on this topic.
I am by no means an expert on this cultural appropriation, but I to perhaps give a comparison and explain why it is harmful - the portrayal of Native Americans in the Disney film Pocahontas.
It is easy to see the film and view (most) of the Native American characters as positive, at least in the beginning of the film. They are shown as being harmonious with nature, fishing with ease, and living a peaceful life (again, at the beginning).
However, this depiction is problematic because it shows a society that exists today (Native Americans) and reinforced modern stereotypes of their culture - "one with nature" "mystical shaman" "primitive culture". This film that is meant to show a depiction of the past reinforces stereotypes of the present.
For many people, media is the only opportunity they have to learn about people from cultures other than their own. Rather than reading a book or having a deep, personal discussion with a friend with their background rooted in cultures different from one's own, people's views are the result of films, TV, news reports, video games, and music.
To put cultural appropriation another way - white people get to have all the "fun" of other cultures without appreciating the depth of the culture in question.
I'm still moderately early too, so maybe I'll change my mind over time. The impression I got was more 'we skimmed for ideas we liked and didn't pay any attention to context.' Stereotyped terminology definitely hurts the game more than it helps: the stilted delivery with "brave" and "outcast" in particular. It doesn't feel like a real society... and that by itself is fine for a fantastic setting, after all. But I get the impression that they want to engage my suspension of disbelief and make it feel more like a realistic postapocalyptic society, and that's where it all falls flat instead, reading like the hoariest of old 80's fantasy novels. I actually went to go use some Conan the Barbarian as an example, but frankly the writing is better there than in HZD.
I'd ask instead, aside from incorporation of mechanical/metal elements from the machines in various designs, what part of this isn't just another lame 'primitive' stereotype? What feels like a real society that actual people would live in? To me, nothing.
As a sort of additional thought, too, if you're going to go whole hog on fantasy tropes, then why not just make up a fantasy name for your hunter/warrior types? It's a deliberate choice to evoke that kind of Native American imagery, he straight-up admitted that.
I'll have to think some more on exactly what it is that feels off to me as I go further, but maybe someone else with the same feelings can explain it better than I can. I came in really excited and hyped up for the game initially, and hadn't even given the design elements a second thought. But by the end of the very first cutscene all I could think was 'oh, Noble Savage, we're going there, huh?'
staticneuron
Member
There is alot of thought in the game and the problem is that you need to go further to understand. Everything from how they dress and talk, to even the naming conventions, the world, the machines, the cultures that you encounter all have explanations and lore.
Again this game isn't trying to represent, demonize or glorify any previous culture, just a what if scenario. Think of it this way, if anyone has seen the TV show "The 100" it kinda touches on something similar in terms of humanity and creating new cultures. Again it is important to let the game define itself instead of taking preconceived notions with you.
Omnistalgic
Member
People really need to just play the game lol...Horizon hardly touches on the issues and makes a statement about nothing.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This game takes place in Colorado....
Tell us how you really feel as that's oddly specific an example.
Bluecondor
Member
I was surprised to see the emphasis on Native Americans in the article in the OP, as this game feels like it is based primarily on the Vikings - both the lead character and the man who raises her in the game - as well as the matriarchal tribal structure.
I have watched a few seasons of the Vikings series on the History Channel, so maybe this is why I see it this way. So much of what I see in Horizon reminds me of the detailed scenes of tribal life and customs in The Vikings.
As such, I think it is presumptuous for the writer to make a claim that the game is based on Guerilla's depictions of Native Americans. I see her point with the term "brave," which is typically associated with Native Americans. Still though, it seems logical that a ritual like the Proving being the ceremony that allowed young warriors to emerge as "braves" would have been a standard occurrence in many cultures.
I have watched a few seasons of the Vikings series on the History Channel, so maybe this is why I see it this way. So much of what I see in Horizon reminds me of the detailed scenes of tribal life and customs in The Vikings.
As such, I think it is presumptuous for the writer to make a claim that the game is based on Guerilla's depictions of Native Americans. I see her point with the term "brave," which is typically associated with Native Americans. Still though, it seems logical that a ritual like the Proving being the ceremony that allowed young warriors to emerge as "braves" would have been a standard occurrence in many cultures.
excelsiorlef
Member
In thousands of years with an entirely new civilization, there is an equal chance it would resemble European societies as American ones.
Me neither. Cultures of today have evolved the way they are because by exchanging and 'appropriating' certain aspects of other cultures to their own culture and vice versa.
And?
I'm a few hours into Horizon. I gotta say, I'm a little annoyed that the only 3 named black characters are all related. And it's not like you see them all together as a family or something. You meet a black girl, then you meet a black boy and he says the girl was her sister. Then you go to see a black woman and the black boy says "oh yeah, that's my mom."
excelsiorlef
Member
I mean ok but to criticize a Native American writer writing about a game set in America (future or not) as being too American centric is kinda ridiculous.
You make it sound like they're trying to say something that isn't there.
ScriptedReality
Member
I swear I was about to comment on that. Feeling mighty specific. Like theres underlying feels about it.
I'm a little annoyed by it because it is a common stereotype. A majority of the names NPCs are white. It is a little annoying to see every named black NPC be related.
ScriptedReality
Member
Not to be dismissive of ya point but theres two more named black people who are related in a sidequest at the beginning of the game.
But once you leave you meet black npcs, asian npcs, and indian npcs who are all named who are also not related. In fact I'd argue that you start to see less and less white NPCs as you go on.
BossDarkseid
Member
True, but I think their critique is that the article sorta comes across like Native Americans are the only inspiration. With a mish-mash of cultures creating the futuristic, sci-fi people that make up many of the characters I wonder if the only reason they used terminology more associated with Native Americans is because it is set in Colorado, for whatever reason. If it was set in a far-future Norway/Denmark/Europe it might have the equivalent terms.
it's a sort of tricky subject because the article even mentions that this can be unintentional, and I would think that is perhaps what has happened here as GG have created a world that is largely populated by their vision of a futuristic tribe inspired by a variety of global tribal cultures(?), and it's set in Colorado...naturally you might think of Native Americans but I don't think they intentionally set out to diminish anyone, because I don't think it's meant to be wholly representative of Native American culture.
I see the image someone posted of Aloy holding a bow and...to be honest it doesn't scream Native American to me. I can see the inspirations for sure, but it feels like it also has major aspects of Viking or European influences too. At the end of the day it's still a topic worth discussing, and the article mentions that's almost the point rather than criticizing GG for doing something malicious.
schaft0620
Member
I come from a family with heavy Native American background, my youngest siblings grew up on reservations. Every once and a while you read something from a "Native American" that makes you go, "ok we get it, you're Native American and you want to be acknowledged, we get it."
Triggerhappytel
Member
I don't really have the knowledge or experience to be involved in this discussion, but I must say this is a really good post. I've been impressed by the amount of ethnic representation in Horizon so far (maybe 5 hours in) and while it may not be flawless I think Guerrilla deserve credit for doing a good job.
What once was Colorado.
Very minor spoiler
no current geopolitical element has endured till Aloy's time
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Oh, then this writer is insane.
Cool, doesn't mean Aloy (a redhead) and everyone else are based on Native Americans. The writer has a flawed assumption, hence their being concerned about words like 'brave." There's nothing to discuss here.
Don't mean to drive by post but the location the game takes place in doesn't really matter when it comes to something like this. I have friends born and raised in North Jersey and they actively practice ancient Norse worship and cultural traditions. It would be convenient to say just because this takes place in the Americas survivors of whatever happened should follow ancient traditions of the land but people don't work that way. Whoever survived and proved successful at prolonged survival would shape the future culture.
The Salt Life
Banned
Is that a spoiler? Because I don't remember seeing that in game? I just figured it was future land somewhere on the earth.