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[NotSmartEnough]

The problem you should see is how dominant cultures treat minorities in their work of fiction.

Works in the real world too.

Ps: Since you were wondering about the team: director of the game is Mathijs de Jonge, dutch. Art director is Jan Bart van Beek, dutch. Screenwriters are John Gonzales and Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie, both americans.

I think you've missed my point. I don't care about the nationalities of the people who worked on the game; I'm arguing that the physical location of the studio isn't sufficient to infer anything about the beliefs or prejudices of the individuals involved, regardless of whether they are all pure-bred Dutch since prehistory or fresh off the plane.

If I were a game developer and my employer told me that I temporarily needed to relocate to the company's Japanese or US studio, it wouldn't change my attitude towards minorities. It's just a place. People seem to be trying to argue that the history of a country can be used to infer the attitudes of people who live there now, without needing to check what the individuals actually think.

It's a generalisation based on the current country of residence and/or employment, and it's not valid.

 

[snoopers]

If I were a game developer and my employer told me that I temporarily needed to relocate to the company's Japanese or US studio, it wouldn't change my attitude towards minorities. It's just a place.

Well sure. You'd just carry your cultural bias with you. That was the point.

 

[kpaadet]

It's that native americans seem to be the biggest influence.

According to who? You know tribal culture have existed pretty much all over the world, what makes this closer to Native American than others?

 

[2Smashed4U]

It's that native americans seem to be the biggest influence.

I mean, if that's convenient to your narrative, I guess.

 

[NotSmartEnough]

Well sure. You'd just carry your cultural bias with you. That was the point.

Who's point? I responded to another poster who stated (in response to my post):

What I meant was that a group of people who live in a country with a problematic past towards colonialism should be careful about how they take from another culture

That's what I'm arguing against: that being geographically located in an area with a colonial history has any relevance on an individual's propensity to appropriate minority cultures.

Do you disagree with this point? Can I infer anything about your beliefs based on your spatial location?

 

[joms5]

It's that native americans seem to be the biggest influence.

 

[Crossing Eden]

According to who? You know tribal culture have existed pretty much all over the world, what makes this closer to Native American than others?

I mean, if that's convenient to your narrative, I guess.

The game is using specific terminology most associated to native americans, (you and other gamers not being aware of that does not mean that it's not a common association).

 

[Brad Grenz]

Exactly.

But it's amusing watching people who haven't played enough of the game scold the developers. At least be familiar with the context of how this story is told.

But of course, it's fine to criticize any creative work. It's just the criticism surrounding the term "brave" falls more flat than some people would like it to.

Frankly, publications giving voice to critiques of artworks from people who have not experienced them first hand is becoming an enormous problem. Many of the complaints in the original article are demonstrably false. Waypoint is unfortunately at the forefront of this problem. Hell, they just published an essay about the No Russian level in MW2 from someone who completely misunderstood the plot of the game (and one might suspect never finished it).

The Order 1886 also experienced a prerelease controversy about its lack of diversity from people who were obviously unaware that for spoiler reasons the presence of two women of color having major roles was kept hidden. This kind of knee-jerk, ignorant criticism would not be tolerated in other mediums. Having read a book or seen a film is usually considered a baseline requirement for an analysis to be taken seriously. I don't know why the game industry is so eager to publish literally baseless criticism.

 

[PdotMichael]

The game is using specific terminology most associated to native americans, (you and other gamers not being aware of that does not mean that it's not a common association).

What a non-post.

 

[snoopers]

That's what I'm arguing against: that being geographically located in an area with a colonial history has any relevance on an individual's propensity to appropriate minority cultures.

Do you disagree with this point? Can I infer anything about your beliefs based on your spatial location?

I don't understand your insistence with strange wording like "spatial location" and "geographically located". If you are born dutch you inherit a post-colonial culture. That is a fact. Maybe the poster you quoted wasn't expressing his idea clearly but I'm sure you can hear what he was trying to say. It wasn't unreasonable either. He said they should be careful about taking from other (I'd add: minority) cultures and I agree with him.

 

[xevis]

This isn't "post-apoc Native Americans!" It is an entirely fictional setting with a broad array of influences. Hell, the aesthetic from character to character is varied enough to prove that. Just because one outfit for the main character happens to be buckskin doesn't suddenly mean the entire thing is trying to ape Native American culture

I'm not sure anyone is arguing the entire aesthetic is a direct lift but the influences for the main character who is the face of the game, are pretty clear. You only have to use your eyes.

The original article had a point in that video game journalists aren't tuned in to minority issues in a meaningful enough way to actually have good conversations about this. The lack of understanding as to what is actually in Horizon, including by said original writer, is exceptionally good proof of this. A few questions pre-release with GG walking people through the inspirations would probably have made all this much clearer, but this is a hobbyist industry incapable of that level of introspection.

I feel like you're arguing intent which is irrelevant. What is relevant is how the designs are popularly understood. On the one hand you have Dia Lacina is telling us she sees her culture appropriated in this game and on the other hand you have the developer complaining about outrage culture on the internet. WTF?

The correct response is to acknowledge the issue and apologise. Instead you have GG backpedalling and telling us about how wide they cast their net for inspiration and how much they tried to avoid creating offense. Like, OK, thanks for the attempt. Here's how you fucked up and what you might try next time to avoid such problems.

 

[truly101]

The game is using specific terminology most associated to native americans, (you and other gamers not being aware of that does not mean that it's not a common association).

It uses one term, "brave", that can be attributed to native americans. I don't know how this translates into native americans being the primary influence here.

 

[eyeball_kid]

People who live in a country with a problematic past?

I live in England. We have a colonial past; problematic is probably a fair assessment. There was a time when the sun never set on the British Empire.

Should I tell friends of Polish and Indian background who live here that they need to be careful, because of things that happened before any of us were born? How many generations need to pass before they can start to share in our colonial shame and watch what they say and write in case they're accused of cultural bias?

It's not about "sharing in shame". It's being aware of and sensitive to the cultural contexts of the society in which you live (whether that's Dutch or British white colonialism, or American slavery, genocide, and exploitation), especially if your heritage is of a culture which participated in these crimes against other races and cultures. None of us live in a bubble, especially when artistic works are concerned, and especially when someone takes cultural touchpoints from another culture that has been historically subjugated or marginalized.

So keeping that in mind, I don't know whether this is true or not, but if it is (and given the writer's kind of handwavy response, I'm leaning towards yes), it doesn't show much sensitivity or respect for the cultures they "borrowed" from for Horizon:

 

[snoopers]

There you go.

 

[Night Angel]

The correct response is to acknowledge the issue and apologise.

This is where I disagree with you. An artist is not immune from criticism, but they are not obligated to apologize for their work just because someone got offended.

People can interpret things in many different ways. Artists have no control over that. Demanding they change what they've done or be ashamed of their work because of a fringe interpretation is ridiculous.

The writer of this article is welcome to their criticism. I (and the developers) am welcome to disagree.

 

[Kin5290]

It's not about "sharing in shame". It's being aware of and sensitive to the cultural contexts of the society in which you live (whether that's Dutch or British white colonialism, or American slavery, genocide, and exploitation), especially if your heritage is of a culture which participated in these crimes against other races and cultures. None of us live in a bubble, especially when artistic works are concerned, and especially when someone takes cultural touchpoints from another culture that has been historically subjugated or marginalized.

So keeping that in mind, I don't know whether this is true or not, but if it is (and given the writer's kind of handwavy response, I'm leaning towards yes), it doesn't show much sensitivity or respect for the cultures they "borrowed" from for Horizon:

Clearly if some angry rando starts shouting at you at an industry party you should drop everything you were doing to engage with him.

 

[QuantumDerp]

Oh, read the medium article. The critisim is fair. The article mentioned that in the Hzd, the people are reverted back to "tribal" ways. In todays society, native American do operate in a tribe, but not because they are "primitive", but that how they operate culturally. So when the game associate a "tribal" like culture to "primitive", it is inherently offensive to the community surrounding the native america because they live here just like the rest of us. Note that operation in tribe does not equate to not functioning in todays society. You can operate in a tribe while living in New York City.

Anyhoo, pardon my ignorance if I somehow spread misinformation.

 

[Ponn]

The game is using specific terminology most associated to native americans, (you and other gamers not being aware of that does not mean that it's not a common association).

Are you sure it wasn't also you seeing someone running around in animal furs and using a bow and automatically jumping to your own stereotype of American Indians? One or two words is quite a huge jump to say it was the biggest influencer to designs of characters.

 

[truly101]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing the entire aesthetic is a direct lift but the influences for the main character who is the face of the game, are pretty clear. You only have to use your eyes.

seems pretty obvious to me what the influences are

Oh, read the medium article. The critisim is fair. The article mentioned that in the Hzd, the people are reverted back to "tribal" ways. In todays society, native American do operate in a tribe, but not because they are "primitive", but that how they operate culturally. So when the game associate a "tribal" like culture to "primitive", it is inherently offensive to the community surrounding the native america because they live here just like the rest of us. Note that operation in tribe does not equate to not functioning in todays society. You can operate in a tribe while living in New York City.

Anyhoo, pardon my ignorance if I somehow spread misinformation.

Tribal society is not in any way exclusive to Native Americans nor is it the only instance of tribal existence in the world. If people are referring to this as such because the game takes place in what was formerly Colorado, then its not GG that applying this stereotype. Did Far Cry Primal receive the same scrutiny or criticism? I'm honestly curious.

 

[Two Words]

Isn't it most likely that they looked at many pre-modern civilization cultures? I don't get why people insist that it is strictly aping Native Americans.

 

[QuantumDerp]

Isn't it most likely that they looked at many pre-modern civilization cultures? I don't get why people insist that it is strictly aping Native Americans.

I guess, that where the issue comes to be. Nobody cares about the pre-modern civilization culture. And oft then not, pre-modern civilization is compared to the native americans, and what I mean by that is that many will think of the native american when they think of primitive society.


Edit: To answer truly101… I agree, tribal society is not exclusive to the native american, but are tribal society not commonly associated with native amercian? I do not know about farcry primal if it gotten any similar scrutiny, but then again, I unfimilar with the game itself.

 

[GLAMr]

The Nora struck me as being more Mongolian or Tibetan in their dress and style.

I don't know enough about Native American peoples to know how/if "brave" should be an offensive term. While there does seem to be a bit of cultural appropriation going on, I suppose it would make sense for these survivors in North America to try and acquire some of the practices of the people who were able to prosper in this land with pre-industrial technology for over 10,000 years. I think it would be awesome if these was a plot point about how after being so mistreated for half a millennium, it was knowledge preserved and shared by Native American peoples that allowed people to survive after the shit hit the fan. (

Spoiler

I know this most likely won't be the case. I only just got to Miridian, so no spoilers please.

).

I guess my main question would be: Where do you draw the line between a respectful homage and exploitative appropriation? It's something I'm very interested in discussing, particularly with people from minority and marginalised groups.

 

[schaft0620]

This game takes place....

You fuckass

 

[truly101]

I guess, that where the issue comes to be. Nobody cares about the pre-modern civilization culture. And oft then not, pre-modern civilization is compared to the native americans, and what I mean by that is that many will think of the native american when they think of primitive society.


Edit: To answer truly101… I agree, tribal society is not exclusive to the native american, but are tribal society not commonly associated with native amercian? I do not know about farcry primal if it gotten any similar scrutiny, but then again, I unfimilar with the game itself.

A current Native American tribal government is not applicable to Horizon Zero Dawn's world so if that criteria is being applied to it, I don't know why. In the game what we have are essentially hunter gatherer societies that have been on every continent of the planet, or at least they were since most of them appear to be settled in particular areas.

 

[kyser73]

Changing the setting to Europe changes nothing in terms of the criticism as long as the game is still released in NA.



According to who? Is there an actual quantifiable metric to reference here? There are a bunch of Native American tribes past and present that had their own cultural dress, language, iconography etc, what did Horizon take thats unique to them and no other culture in the world?

I don't think that true at all. Change the geographic setting, and outside of use of the word 'braves' which does have a very specific historical use there'd be little recourse to notions of appropriation or criticism for use of terms such ch as savage or primitive. European tribes also used ornate headgear & body decorations, and they used similar materials in clothing manufacture.

All the shit about 'countries with problematic colonial pasts' goes away if GG set the game in Europe. Although I can bet someone would come along saying that the language use was 'problematic' given the diverse nature of the cast, but that is down to modern identity politics being about individual feelings rather than being a universal critical framework, as was the case the last time IP was big back in the 1970s & early 80s.

 

[truly101]

I don't think that true at all. Change the geographic setting, and outside of use of the word 'braves' which does have a very specific historical use there'd be little recourse to notions of appropriation or criticism for use of terms such ch as savage or primitive. European tribes also used ornate headgear & body decorations, and they used similar materials in clothing manufacture.

All the shit about 'countries with problematic colonial pasts' goes away if GG set the game in Europe. Although I can bet someone would come along saying that the language use was 'problematic' given the diverse nature of the cast, but that is down to modern identity politics being about individual feelings rather than being a universal critical framework, as was the case the last time IP was big back in the 1970s & early 80s.

I don't see how changing the setting changes the criticism, there isn't anything of the former United States in the form of society or government that still remains. It seems to be a bit of a projection in thinking, oh, this used to be the US, well naturally this is based on Native American society. If it is set in what was once Germany, I think some will still criticize it as cultural appropriation of indigenous cultures. As evident by this thread, people are going to interpret it one way or another, the setting isn't going to change it.

 

[joms5]

The game is using specific terminology most associated to native americans, (you and other gamers not being aware of that does not mean that it's not a common association).

Thanks for giving an actual example.

Someone who refers to themselves as a "teacher" should know how to better back up such claims without getting salty. But I guess that's why you also talk down to people by calling them "champ".

Your opinions are now completely null and void.

What a non-post.

That my friend, is called a Crossing Eden special. You'll get used to them around here.

 

[xevis]

An artist is not immune from criticism, but they are not obligated to apologize for their work just because someone got offended

Well, sometimes the purpose of art is indeed to offend. I haven't seen anything to indicate that's the case here.

What I have seen is a developer trying to point out how hard they supposedly worked to avoid giving offense, all of which makes me think they're striving toward inclusive ideals. It's quite jarring then to hear the same developer dismiss criticism from minorities who point out that despite these best intentions their culture has been appropriated.

IMO, GG can either (i) live up to their ideals by owning their mistakes and committing to doing better next time or; (ii) they can be callous dicks that deny everything and and blame outrage culture.

 

[truly101]

Wrong thread

 

[kyser73]

I guess, that where the issue comes to be. Nobody cares about the pre-modern civilization culture. And oft then not, pre-modern civilization is compared to the native americans, and what I mean by that is that many will think of the native american when they think of primitive society.


Edit: To answer truly101… I agree, tribal society is not exclusive to the native american, but are tribal society not commonly associated with native amercian? I do not know about farcry primal if it gotten any similar scrutiny, but then again, I unfimilar with the game itself.

Only in North America. In the U.K. most history classes dealing with the Roman occupation cover the revolt led by the Iceni tribe & their queen Boudicca, and it's well known that pre- and post Roman Europe was comprised of tribes ranging from 00s to 10s of thousands of people. The Celtic tribes, Gauls (as in Asterix), Aquitainians & Iberians...the list goes on for a long time.

 

[QuantumDerp]

A current Native American tribal government is not applicable to Horizon Zero Dawn's world so if that criteria is being applied to it, I don't know why. In the game what we have are essentially hunter gatherer societies that have been on every continent of the planet, or at least they were since most of them appear to be settled in particular areas.

I agree. Now I think about, I wonder if the author of the article actually played the game or got the information secondhand. I will say the critism is fair but not valid for this game, for me, at this given time as I found absolutely nothing offensive of the game as of yet.


EDIT: Response to Kyser73… I guess you learn something new everyday. I asked that question with in mind with me being grown up in the US, but that is beside the point, you are correct. And I wanna say that looking at Hzd, I feel the inspiration came moreso from the Vikings' tribe...(viking tv show…and vinland saga).

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

So keeping that in mind, I don't know whether this is true or not, but if it is (and given the writer's kind of handwavy response, I'm leaning towards yes), it doesn't show much sensitivity or respect for the cultures they "borrowed" from for Horizon:

It's from twitter I'm calling bullshit

 

[kyser73]

I don't see how changing the setting changes the criticism, there isn't anything of the former United States in the form of society or government that still remains. It seems to be a bit of a projection in thinking, oh, this used to be the US, well naturally this is based on Native American society. If it is set in what was once Germany, I think some will still criticize it as cultural appropriation of indigenous cultures. As evident by this thread, people are going to interpret it one way or another, the setting isn't going to change it.

That is precisely the projection in thinking on display ITT tho (the article is slightly different as it tends to focus more on criticism of criticism rather than appropriation or any kind of context within the game itself).

I think you'd find it difficult to accuse a European developer of appropriating their own history, especially since the whole (contemporary liberal) notion of appropriation is of a dominant power taking from a victim culture for entertainment or other purposes.

 

[truly101]

That is precisely the projection in thinking on display ITT tho (the article is slightly different as it tends to focus more on criticism of criticism rather than appropriation or any kind of context within the game itself).

I think you'd find it difficult to accuse a European developer of appropriating their own history, especially since the whole (contemporary liberal) notion of appropriation is of a dominant power taking from a victim culture for entertainment or other purposes.

okay, fair point. It just makes me mad because thats incredibly lazy thinking (not you), While I think its fair to critique those things in Horizon, it seems like the criticism is barely going skin deep without any true analysis.

 

[WordsintheWater]

It's that native americans seem to be the biggest influence.

Did you play the first 30 min of the game and came up with this conclusion? This is a good discussion to have, but you're factually wrong with this one.

 

[kyser73]

It's not about "sharing in shame". It's being aware of and sensitive to the cultural contexts of the society in which you live (whether that's Dutch or British white colonialism, or American slavery, genocide, and exploitation), especially if your heritage is of a culture which participated in these crimes against other races and cultures. None of us live in a bubble, especially when artistic works are concerned, and especially when someone takes cultural touchpoints from another culture that has been historically subjugated or marginalized.

So keeping that in mind, I don't know whether this is true or not, but if it is (and given the writer's kind of handwavy response, I'm leaning towards yes), it doesn't show much sensitivity or respect for the cultures they "borrowed" from for Horizon:

So how far back in history does this 'rule' apply? I'm originally from Britain, so by this reckoning I can feel free to argue with Italian & French artists who have lifted ideas & concepts from Britain? Indeed the whole of Europe can point at Italy for both the Romans and the effective subjugation of the whole continent by the Roman Catholic Church.

Talking about cultures that have been subjugated & marginalised in Europe is basically a rabbit hole you never come out of, but but if your rule applies each one has some kind of claim against the other.

 

[travisbickle]

I think the words brave and savages work within the story but could have been changed. As I said before "savages" is literally corrected by one of the characters as if it is a non-PC term within the game world. Maybe do a "ploughing" Witcher 3 style instead, a different word than our own but we can understand has certain connotations.

But...

Can anyone write a back-of-the-box description of this game without using the words "primitive" or "tribal"?

 

[truly101]

I think the words brave and savages work within the story but could have been changed. As I said before "savages" is literally corrected by one of the characters as if it is a non-PC term within the game world. Maybe do a "ploughing" Witcher 3 style instead, a different word than our own but we can understand has certain connotations.

But...

Can anyone write a back-of-the-box description of this game without using the words "primitive" or "tribal"?

Sure, you can use clan, or group, or family or society for tribe and something like archaic for primitive. I'm unsure why these words are off limits though.

 

[Pancake Mix]

The game is using specific terminology most associated to native americans, (you and other gamers not being aware of that does not mean that it's not a common association).

You have no idea what you're talking about, Crossing Eden, and there's a whole world out there full of things you don't know, so there's no sense in making baseless claims.

 

[NotSmartEnough]

I don't understand your insistence with strange wording like "spatial location" and "geographically located". If you are born dutch you inherit a post-colonial culture. That is a fact. Maybe the poster you quoted wasn't expressing his idea clearly but I'm sure you can hear what he was trying to say. It wasn't unreasonable either. He said they should be careful about taking from other (I'd add: minority) cultures and I agree with him.

Read what I disagreed with: not "born in country" or "from country"; but "living in country".

That's why I said "geographically located". What do you think "living in" means?

 

[SarusGray]

primitive and tribal isn't exclusive to a culture. Those words are free to be used.

 

[Wessie]

One time I wrote a short story about tribes of humans during a post apocalyptic time in the Human timeline. It contained the words tribe, brace and savage. Maybe I am a racist and/or a bigot? Maybe I am just deaf?

 

[travisbickle]

Sure, you can use clan, or group, or family or society for tribe and something like archaic for primitive. I'm unsure why these words are off limits though.

From reading the article I assumed the issue with "primitive" was it denotes a linear progress in human development where certain things are seen as being part of the past when in fact people today live that way. Archaic would be the same.

And there are 6 or 7 different tribal societies within the game, non of them appear to have any familial/bloodline lineage.

 

[Arkage]

It's quite jarring then to hear the same developer dismiss criticism from minorities who point out that despite these best intentions their culture has been appropriated.

To be more accurate, he's dismissing criticism from a single person's web article, whom does not represent their minority group in a spokesperson capacity. Considering that 90% of this minority group don't care about the word "Redskin" I'd expect a similar poll on the word "tribal" would likely garner a nearly 100% don't care attitude.

This article is representing an opinion that's on the fringe of the fringe. And because it is, the topic is being heatedly debated, and because it's being heatedly debated, people mistakenly believe it's a mainstream view instead of a fringe view, and feel more impassioned to argue about it. The developer is right to dismiss it until the opinion is validated by actual Native American representatives that organize and plan for their community, not just write off a reactionary article that's attempting to push back against those praising GG for their inclusivity.

 

[Two Words]

Just go th to Meridian. Lol @ claims of Native Americans being the primary inspiration of the game.

 

[gfxtwin]

The story is about a distant future where paleolithic people make a comeback after the collapse of civilization and fight robot dinosaurs. It's so absurd to begin with imo that I feel like it's funny anyone would take the time to give it serious critical analysis. There are some interesting sci fi concepts, but nothing that says "amazing story that you should take seriously".

 

[ScaryShark]

The story is about a distant future where paleolithic people make a comeback after the collapse of civilization and fight robot dinosaurs. It's so absurd to begin with imo that I feel like it's funny anyone would take the time to give it serious critical analysis. There are some interesting sci fi concepts, but nothing that says "amazing story that you should take seriously".

Have you played it, finished it?

On paper the concept may seem 'absurd' but it's grounded and told very well considering the medium and shouldn't just be dismissed on outward appearance.

 

[OmahaG8]

One time I wrote a short story about tribes of humans during a post apocalyptic time in the Human timeline. It contained the words tribe, brace and savage. Maybe I am a racist and/or a bigot? Maybe I am just deaf?

Better to find out too late than not at all. Please make an itemized list of groups you identify with and restrict any opinions you may have in the future to these containers.

 

[SarusGray]

To be more accurate, he's dismissing criticism from a single person's web article, whom does not represent their minority group in a spokesperson capacity. Considering that 90% of this minority group don't care about the word "Redskin" I'd expect a similar poll on the word "tribal" would likely garner a nearly 100% don't care attitude.

This article is representing an opinion that's on the fringe of the fringe. And because it is, the topic is being heatedly debated, and because it's being heatedly debated, people mistakenly believe it's a mainstream view instead of a fringe view, and feel more impassioned to argue about it. The developer is right to dismiss it until the opinion is validated by actual Native American representatives that organize and plan for their community, not just write off a reactionary article that's attempting to push back against those praising GG for their inclusivity.

Pretty much probably the reason why so many people are quite upset.

 

[Zakalwe]

Have you played it, finished it?

On paper the concept may seem 'absurd' but it's grounded and told very well considering the medium and shouldn't just be dismissed on outward appearance.

The story telling is above-average for a video game.

The naming conventions and details are YA novel quality.

The actual sotry itself is a fairly generic sci-fi tale, the idea behind Zero Dawn is neat but hardly anything super original.

Considering the medium? It's pretty good, yeh.