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[Hamlet Machine]

I'm sick and tired of this shit.
I remembrer leaving Algeria for France in the 90's because of similar things happening... and now it's here too. I can't express how angry/defeated I feel right now.

 

[ElTorro]

No I just meant that you can't deny them entry (because they were born in France anyway) as the post I quoted suggested.
On the other hand European style integration doesn't seem to be working anyway, there are lots of Ghettos made up of Muslim immigrants, this is a huge contrast to the US.

I do not think that European societies or policies bear the main blame for this. The demographics of immigrants in Europe are simply different from those in the US. Immigrants in the US are more educated and financially better situated than immigrants in Europe. Traditionally, the latter tend to come from poorer, more rural regions, which reflects in their education, economic status, and views, which tend to be more conservative. I grew up among immigrants, and many of them have no intention to identify with their new home country more than with the country of their parents. A relevant number of them still has issues with their new language, even if they've been born here. Many of them also do not socialize outside of their own milieu.

It is telling that pretty much all successful immigrants and decedents of immigrants that I know are those who actively integrated better. For instance, native language skills alone help you a lot in our (free) school and university system, and in our job market.

 

[Alx]

I once came across a an interview with a French professor who pointed this out. He hypothesised that these children of first gen immigrants had kind of lost their identities not quite feeling French enough and not connected enough to their parents homeland. At that point they may be influenced by some religious nut job somewhere then they usually attempt to convince their parents that they are not religious enough before finally falling completely under the influence of extremists. He compared these 2nd gens more to the bader mein Hoff gang, called them lost children in fact.

Dudes name was Olivier Roy in case anyone wants to dig.

Well it's an observable phenomenon that "second+ gen immigrants" have a conception of their ancestors culture that is both limited and idealized. (By the way I find it weird to call such people "x gen immigrants", technically my parents were refugees/immigrants too when they entered the country, I wouldn't consider myself anything but a native French... ). I can see my cousins proudly stating and joking about their Asian roots while they don't even speak the language. It's not too different from Americans pretending to be Irish on March 17th.
In a way it makes such persons an easier target for extremism, because they want to belong to a community that they can't even clearly define.

 

[Funky Papa]

Because they have a massive Muslim population. Or is that also taboo to mention. It's not happening in Hungary or Poland or Spain because their Muslim population is very small.

Spain's muslim population is similar to Germany's by percentage.

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/12/why-isis-lusts-after-spain.html

 

[Ravensmash]

Because they have a massive Muslim population. Or is that also taboo to mention. It's not happening in Hungary or Poland or Spain because their Muslim population is very small.

I think it's a bit more complicated than "there are lots of them".

 

[Koren]

Comparing Muslim immigration to Europe with Muslim immigration to America is such a feckless thing to do.

In terms of percentages, muslims in France is probably* close to african-americans in the US.

* estimated to 10% be law forbid those kind of statistics.


As far as "ghettos", if I'm said there's no suburbs with poor people in the US, or that in those suburbs one minority is far more common than on average in the whole country, I won't believe it.

 

[BetterWorldz]

Cracked actually did it. According to them ISIS doesn't really give a shit what name you give them. Then again, Cracked is a comedy site so I'd hardly consider that a reliable source.

Anyway, apparently it is strange to ask for confirmations from ISIS themselves from someone who said there are many confirmations from ISIS themselves, so I'll leave it at that.

It's an odd point to be clinging to when even the original poster admitted the huge amount of sources made the claim plausible. That being said, with all my heart I hope that throughout your lifetime the only ISIS direct confirmations you'll get will be from comedy websites.

 

[Blackquill]

I once came across a an interview with a French professor who pointed this out. He hypothesised that these children of first gen immigrants had kind of lost their identities not quite feeling French enough and not connected enough to their parents homeland. At that point they may be influenced by some religious nut job somewhere then they usually attempt to convince their parents that they are not religious enough before finally falling completely under the influence of extremists. He compared these 2nd gens more to the bader mein Hoff gang, called them lost children in fact.

Dudes name was Olivier Roy in case anyone wants to dig.

It's totally true, being a child of migrant in France or Belgium is really hard since on one hand you don't feel Algerian enough (for example) and in the other hand, not French enough since you have these foreign origins. And people judge you a lot both on the muslim and non-muslim side. Like I already heard non-muslim people talking bad about someone because he drank alcohol once and it's not ok with his religion, like what the fuck ?

 

[Ferulci]

I'm sick and tired of this shit.
I remembrer leaving Algeria for France in the 90's because of similar things happening... and now it's here too. I can't express how angry/defeated I feel right now.

You can feel angry, but dont feel defeated. We will overcome this. While we have lots of problems to resolve (basically the whole pipeline that transform a citizen into a terrorist) we must stand with our values and not fall for the "immigrant/2nd gen" ignorant bullshit I've read here.

 

[JimmyRustler]

No I just meant that you can't deny them entry (because they were born in France anyway) as the post I quoted suggested.
On the other hand European style integration doesn't seem to be working anyway, there are lots of Ghettos made up of Muslim immigrants, this is a huge contrast to the US.

What? Why should a countries integration system be blamed for anything? Why should it not be expected from someone moving to another country to integrate himself properly?

Oh look, these poor people failed to integrate into their hosts society who took them up, lets blame the host.

Grinds my fucking gears. And this is coming from an immigrant.

 

[Christhor]

You can feel angry, but dont feel defeated. We will overcome this. While we have lots of problems to resolve (basically the whole pipeline that transform a citizen into a terrorist) we must stand with our values and not fall for the "immigrant/2nd gen" ignorant bullshit I've read here.

How do you suggest we overcome it? Do we all just hold hands?

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Just clicked on the AFP twitter and saw:

AFP news agency ‏@AFP 42s43 seconds ago
#BREAKING Shots fired at Berlin hospital: police

There is no indication whatsoever this is terror related.

 

[E92 M3]

What? Why should a countries integration system be blamed for anything? Why should it not be expected from someone moving to another country to integrate himself properly?

Oh look, these poor people failed to integrate into their hosts society who took them up, lets blame the host.

Grinds my fucking gears. And this is coming from an immigrant.

I'm with you on this; and also an immigrant.

 

[Hamlet Machine]

You can feel angry, but dont feel defeated. We will overcome this. While we have lots of problems to resolve (basically the whole pipeline that transform a citizen into a terrorist) we must stand with our values and not fall for the "immigrant/2nd gen" ignorant bullshit I've read here.

It's kind of hard no to feel defeated as the hate just repeats itself again and again.
You are right though about the need to resolve the "problem" but I am more skeptical than you and I hardly see how that can be achieved (in a short delay).

 

[justjohn]

How do you suggest we overcome it? Do we all just hold hands?

Throw in a few kumbaya jingles in there while you're at it.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

What? Why should a countries integration system be blamed for anything? Why should it not be expected from someone moving to another country to integrate himself properly?

Oh look, these poor people failed to integrate into their hosts society who took them up, lets blame the host.

Grinds my fucking gears. And this is coming from an immigrant.

I'm with you on this; and also an immigrant.

Seconded.

Also an immigrant.

as the saying goes "when in rome, do as the romans do.....if you have a problem with it, there's the fucking door"

 

[Funky Papa]

In terms of percentages, muslims in France is probably* close to african-americans in the US.

* estimated to 10% be law forbid those kind of statistics.


As far as "ghettos", if I'm said there's no suburbs with poor people in the US, or that in those suburbs one minority is far more common than on average in the whole country, I won't believe it.

My beef with such comparisons is that they ignore not only the volume, but the fact that Europe is geographically connected to the Middle East/a short boat ride away from it, which drastically alters the kind of immigrants it receives (read: largely folks from impoverished/war ravaged countries with little to no education).

 

[Hypron]

What? Why should a countries integration system be blamed for anything? Why should it not be expected from someone moving to another country to integrate himself properly?

Oh look, these poor people failed to integrate into their hosts society who took them up, lets blame the host.

Grinds my fucking gears. And this is coming from an immigrant.

Part (not all) of the blame can and needs to be put on the host country. Read a bit about immigration from Algeria to France in the 70s (i.e. the type of people whose children would be considered second or third generation) on Wikipedia. They were incentivised to move there and then faced racism, poverty, and life in Ghettos.

And I emigrated to another country, but I'm white and my father got in as a high skilled worker so I won't act like my experience is worth anything.

 

[lenos16]

What? Why should a countries integration system be blamed for anything? Why should it not be expected from someone moving to another country to integrate himself properly?

Oh look, these poor people failed to integrate into their hosts society who took them up, lets blame the host.

Grinds my fucking gears. And this is coming from an immigrant.

No I agree with you here, the system isn't at fault. I'm just noting that the established integration programs doesn't really help when you are faced with people who simply don't want to integrate. There should be mandatory language tests and an efficient deportation system needs to be put into place. I'm a second gen immigrant myself.

 

[Zaph]

My beef with such comparisons is that they ignore not only the volume, but the fact that Europe is geographically connected to the Middle East/a short boat ride away from it, which drastically alters the kind of immigrants it receives (read: largely folks from impoverished/war ravaged countries with little to no education).

Exactly. We're not separated by 3000 miles of ocean and get to cherry pick the best and brightest.

 

[Kenshin001]

There is no indication whatsoever this is terror related.

That's a relief. Won't be long until there is another one though.

 

[Alx]

No I agree with you here, the system isn't at fault. I'm just noting that the established integration programs doesn't really help when you are faced with people who simply don't want to integrate. There should be mandatory language tests and an efficient deportation system needs to be put into place. I'm a second gen immigrant myself.

Many countries already have language requirements. Also in the case of terror attacks, I only remember people who were fluent with the local language.

 

[Carcetti]

If people thought parties and politicians with hardline stances on immigration were popular in Europe before this, wait until the next round of elections. It's gonna be Fortress Europe.

 

[ElTorro]

Seconded.

Also an immigrant.

as the saying goes "when in rome, do as the romans do.....if you have a problem with it, there's the fucking door"

My grandmother from my mother's side immigrated with my mother to Germany, coming from a village with no electricity or water installations. She also never learned to read. Despite their low-income jobs, her grandson received a great education without having to pay a single buck for it and can now have a comfortable life in a country with one of the highest standards of living on the planet. A country that offers such opportunities for free to everyone is doing a pretty decent job, I would say. I find it really hard to blame it for the failure of some to even learn the language properly; for instance, by speaking the language of the host country at home.

 

[Ferulci]

How do you suggest we overcome it? Do we all just hold hands?

Exactly, that and making cookies while playing guitar. Any other questions ?

It's kind of hard no to feel defeated as the hate just repeats itself again and again.
You are right though about the need to resolve the "problem" but I am more skeptical than you and I hardly see how that can be achieved (in a short delay).

I agree that it's hard. But strangely enough, it seems to be those who directly suffer from this that keep the cooler head.
http://www.fier-panda.fr/article/prendre-balle-bataclan (in french)
Short delay, asides from annihilating Daesch/ISIS and getting better at crushing those threats before they come out, there is not a lot of things (as citizens) we can do to stop this. Thrust the army/justice/police to do its job and give them means to do it.
Any deep solution will ask mid-term/long-term solutions can go from education to economy, overall security, how we deal with religous radicalism and so on. Those things take time and thinking though. The goal is to prevent rather than react.
It's a war threatening our safety and our values (liberté, égalité, fraternité, pluricultural country...). If we give up one of them to protect the other, we will be screwed for the decades to come.

 

[Hamlet Machine]

Short delay, asides from annihilating Daesch/ISIS and getting better at crushing those threats before they come out, there is not a lot of things (as citizens) we can do to stop this. Thrust the army/justice/police to do its job and give them means to do it.
Any deep solution will ask mid-term/long-term solutions can go from education to economy, overall security, how we deal with religous radicalism and so on. Those things take time and thinking though. The goal is to prevent rather than react.
It's a war threatening our safety and our values (liberté, égalité, fraternité, pluricultural country...). If we give up one of them to protect the other, we will be screwed for the decades to come.

I, for the most part, agree.
Mostly with the mid/long-term solutions you describe as being the only solution because although there is a need effectively for a short termed solution... I am afraid it can also backfire and serve as fuel for the hatred that animates these attacks.
It will only hide the dust under the carpet...

Sorry for the lack of development as I am at work.

 

[DrunkShogun]

I, for the most part, agree.
Mostly with the mid/long-term solutions you describe as being the only solution because although there is a need effectively for a short termed solution... I am afraid it can also backfire and serve as fuel for the hatred that animates these attacks.
It will only hide the dust under the carpet...

Sorry for the lack of development as I am at work.

Pains me to say this as a Muslim myself but we need more diligence. If someone is considered worthy of being investigated, then we need to create far more barriers. Tag them, limit the freedom they have. This might sound bad but in my eyes, if your considered worth investigating then you probably are.

 

[Alx]

My grandmother from my mother's side immigrated with my mother to Germany, coming from a village with no electricity or water installations. She also never learned to read. Despite their low-income jobs, her grandson received a great education without having to pay a single buck for it and can now have a comfortable life in a country with one of the highest standards of living on the planet. A country that offers such opportunities for free to everyone is doing a pretty decent job, I would say. I find it really hard to blame it for the failure of some to even learn the language properly; for instance, by speaking the language of the host country at home.

Same here, my grandmother never learned the language, but two of her children became teachers (one of them a French teacher, even), and all of them are perfectly fluent in French. Language is indeed important for integration, but it seems it's handled pretty well in the current system.

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

As cowardly and terrible as this attack was, I'm surprised that there haven't been more attacks on churches. I know it's a shitty thing to think about, but churches have always seemed like easy targets to me in lieu of this social and religious revolution going on around the world right now. :/

 

[2MF]

Is it true that the priest was beheaded?

Memory eternal!

Apparently not. Not that it matters anymore, since the motivation of the attackers seems clear at this point, even without the possibility of beheading...

 

[Alx]

As cowardly and terrible as this attack was, I'm surprised that there haven't been more attacks on churches. I know it's a shitty thing to think about, but churches have always seemed like easy targets to me in lieu of this social and religious revolution going on around the world right now. :/

One would-be attacker planned something against a church last year, but failed.
In the case of France (and most European countries), it wouldn't be such a strong symbol anyway. Very few people are going to church nowadays, except for a decreasing number of devoted people (mostly elders). Striking cafés, concert halls or festive events is much scarier to the population.

 

[MikeDown]

Most of these assholes are homegrown.

The problem is very few of these 2nd generation immigrants assimilate into the country's culture. There is little unity.

 

[Angel_DvA]

I'm really tired of this but they'll be really tired before us, we'll never let it go.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Do we now start to be nervous of certain people in society because it seems to be a regular occurrence.

I'm guessing brown and olive skinned people will as a result have to double down on acting as western as possible, it was already pretty bad and even then that won't help much from being profiled or seen with suspicion.

Other knock on effects are job applications and so on, employers people will probably extend their fears on any foreign sounding name. In France there was an article where discrimination against Muslims applying for jobs.

 

[God Dayumm]

So much for religious tolerance attacking a church

 

[hydragonwarrior]

The problem with the news its that it's entirely negative. Every negative thing that is associated with ISIL will stay lingering in the news for the week. Every positive thing that the Muslim community has done in France that week will be completely put to the wayside.

But even when the news dies down, that is never advertised. It's quite the crappy media cycle. The message should be - this is horrific, but this is also not representative of the entire community.

 

[Alx]

The problem with the news its that it's entirely negative. Every negative thing that is associated with ISIL will stay lingering in the news for the week. Every positive thing that the Muslim community has done in France that week will be completely put to the wayside.

But even when the news dies down, that is never advertised. It's quite the crappy media cycle. The message should be - this is horrific, but this is also not representative of the entire community.

Which reminds me, since people frequently complain that "there aren't enough reactions from the Muslim community", that the "conseil français du culte musulman" published a message condemning vehemently those events, and the imam from Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray (the city of the church) declared to be "stunned by the death of his friend", with whom he's been taking part of an inter-confessional comity for the last 18 months.

 

[victreeb3l]

Fucking cowards. RIP to the priest.

 

[therealist]

Rationally, people don't assume that all Muslims are terrorists, but then again why does it have to be 100% or a majority of Muslims for it to be a crisis? Clearly that number is high, or else we wouldn't be having terrorist attacks every other day. Inaction is unacceptable. Something needs to be done. Can't sit around waiting for some long-term fixes that may or may not work.

 

[Coffinhal]

The problem is very few of these 2nd generation immigrants assimilate into the country's culture. There is little unity.

Where does this come from ? Do you have any sociological data to share, or is it homemade bullshit?

What is "the country's culture" ?

 

[Zaph]

Where does this come from ? Do you have any sociological data to share, or is it homemade bullshit?

What is "the country's culture" ?

After the Nice attack there was a really good interview on BBC News with a researcher from New York who studies integration, and they discussed this issue and what makes France unique.

To paraphrase his point, unlike countries such as the US where integration involves celebrating the differences of various culture in a very American way, France's strong cultural ties to secularism and French lifestyle translates into a type of integration where you strip yourself of your differences in order to be the same and equal.

Whether this is right or wrong is another debate, but the more time I spend in France and around French people, I do wonder if Islam, being just as much a lifestyle as it is a religion for some, may just simply be incompatible with French culture on a fundamental level.

 

[Vire]

After the Nice attack there was a really good interview on BBC News with a researcher from New York who studies integration, and they discussed this issue and what makes France unique.

To paraphrase his point, unlike countries such as the US where integration involves celebrating the differences of various culture in a very American way, France's strong cultural ties to secularism and French lifestyle translates into a type of integration where you strip yourself of your differences in order to be the same and equal.

Whether this is right or wrong is another debate, but the more time I spend in France and around French people, I do wonder if Islam, being just as much a lifestyle as it is a religion for some, may just simply be incompatible with French culture on a fundamental level.

Pretty sure it has more to do with the fact that there are 3000 miles of ocean in between the US and the countries the refugees are fleeing from and thus we can be a lot more selective in who we take over.

 

[Zaph]

Pretty sure it has more to do with the fact that there are 3000 miles of ocean in between the US and the countries the refugees are fleeing from and thus we can be a lot more selective in who we take over.

I made that exact same point a few posts up, but this is about a different argument - what causes such a higher amount of unrest in France compared to other countries, be it in Europe or America. I used the US example because that's what the researcher used, but regardless, France is in a very unique position that goes beyond the 'type' or 'quality' of immigrant they attract.

 

[Beefy]

RIP to the priest and hope the person in critical condition survives.

 

[Vire]

I made that exact same point a few posts up, but this is about a different argument - what causes such a higher amount of unrest in France compared to other countries, be it in Europe or America. I used the US example because that's what the researcher used, but regardless, France is in a very unique position that goes beyond the 'type' or 'quality' of immigrant they attract.

Ah wow, I didn't even see your post above. Crazy.

 

[2MF]

So much for religious tolerance attacking a church

For these guys, this is a religious, political and social battle all rolled up into one.

 

[SteveO409]

Live to 86 years old and die to some stupid attack...fuck this world but it seems like i say that every other day with these kind of senseless shit

 

[Chuckie]

It's an odd point to be clinging to when even the original poster admitted the huge amount of sources made the claim plausible. That being said, with all my heart I hope that throughout your lifetime the only ISIS direct confirmations you'll get will be from comedy websites.

It is not odd, because another poster (not me) asked for these huge amount of sources and never got them.

Gaffer A: there are a lot of direct confirmations from ISIS themselves that they punish people for calling them Daesh
Gaffer B: can you show some of those confirmations
Gaffer C: Gives one article with a non-ISIS source
Me: That is not direct confirmation from ISIS themselves.

That is all that happened. And now I am really done, because like I already said 3 times...I am not denying ISIS punishes people, I was just interested in those 'many direct conformations'.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The problem with the news its that it's entirely negative. Every negative thing that is associated with ISIL will stay lingering in the news for the week. Every positive thing that the Muslim community has done in France that week will be completely put to the wayside.

But even when the news dies down, that is never advertised. It's quite the crappy media cycle. The message should be - this is horrific, but this is also not representative of the entire community.

The message should be: this happened. After that people can make their own minds up and politicians can come forward with their solutions. It's not the medias role to say after every terrorist act: "but it's not all Muslims."

Bad things are remembered more, that is with everything, not only these subjects.

 

[Mael]

After the Nice attack there was a really good interview on BBC News with a researcher from New York who studies integration, and they discussed this issue and what makes France unique.

To paraphrase his point, unlike countries such as the US where integration involves celebrating the differences of various culture in a very American way, France's strong cultural ties to secularism and French lifestyle translates into a type of integration where you strip yourself of your differences in order to be the same and equal.

Whether this is right or wrong is another debate, but the more time I spend in France and around French people, I do wonder if Islam, being just as much a lifestyle as it is a religion for some, may just simply be incompatible with French culture on a fundamental level.

It is very important to understand that in France multiculturalism is really different than whatever the hell is going on in the US or in the UK.
It's why it's always superbly funny having a random asshole claim that what's happening is because of multiculturalism or something that have nothing to do with how things work in France.
To put in perspective, when France ruled colonial places they STILL taught people about the "Gauls ancestor" and stuffs.
Even current French culture is wildly different than what was French culture before the Revolution.
My point is the situation is complicated and you can't come with a solution for a problem from another situation.

It is not odd, because another poster (not me) asked for these huge amount of sources and never got them.

Gaffer A: there are a lot of direct confirmations from ISIS themselves that they punish people for calling them Daesh
Gaffer B: can you show some of those confirmations
Gaffer C: Gives one article with a non-ISIS source
Me: That is not direct confirmation from ISIS themselves.

That is all that happened. And now I am really done, because like I already said 3 times...I am not denying ISIS punishes people, I was just interested in those 'many direct conformations'.

Like that would make any difference, they confirm stuffs that have nothing to do with them anyway.
They're going to confirm that the next pile up outside of Lyon is an act of ISIS or some crap.

misread, disregard.