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[Icyflamez96]

Will be picking this up very soon. Most of what I'm reading sounds good, although I'm dissapointed with that one line about the weapon switching. Not enough to stop me from getting this ASAP for the price it's at.

 

[mr teaspoon]

Seems the lower scores are all about gameplay choices.

No masks, and instead using various characters with unique perks and abilities. And the bigger stages.

Sounds like to me the reviewers weren't particularly good at the game in the first place, and the bigger levels and restrictions caused it to be even more difficult. So they didn't like it due to that.

I didn't write any of the reviews, and I am supremely of the mindset 'if you like it, fantastic', but I don't see where you're getting that from. If difficulty was the issue, wouldn't they have articulated that? Of course the scores are dependent on gameplay choices, and some reviewers didn't seem to like those choices. Not because they're secretly bad at the game, but because they didn't like the bits they mentioned.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

It was a bit of a stretch- reviewer seemed intent on picking on things not mentioned in ANY other review

Doesn't that make the review more useful than all the others? I just read it and it talked about many of the exact things I would be interested to know before jumping into the game.

What if that score wasn't there? Would you still be motivated to explain away the reviewer's complaints by implying they must be false because no one else mentioned them?

Seems the lower scores are all about gameplay choices.

No masks, and instead using various characters with unique perks and abilities. And the bigger stages.

Sounds like to me the reviewers weren't particularly good at the game in the first place, and the bigger levels and restrictions caused it to be even more difficult. So they didn't like it due to that.

Ignoring skill completely, if HM2 prevented me from playing the way I did in HM1, which greatly contributed to my enjoyment of the game, I would like it less than the first and I'd say so in a review.

That PC Gamer review effectively rips into a big problem with big sequels. Hotline: Miami is an arcade game draped in storytelling. Hotline: Miami 2 seems to jettison the arcade mechanic to double down on storytelling. Not what I'm looking for in more Hotline. First, it hampers my enjoyment of playing the game. Second, I'm always wary when a game with brief, focused storytelling is followed up by a game with long, detailed storytelling.

Completely agree with this perspective. I'm glad PC Gamer talked about it so I can take that into consideration.

 

[BabyFaceKillah]

How are you seeing that the game is fucked? The reviews are overwhelmingly positive, with one outlier.



Why? Because of positive reviews?

gotta pick between this and Ori mate.

 

[medze]

Nice scores! Can't wait for this to show up on PS store

 

[Maedhros]

Did you not read the majority of the reviews that are positive?

There is one bad review. If you liked the original I'd say this is worth £10, even if it's half as good as the first it will be money well spent.

How are you seeing that the game is fucked? The reviews are overwhelmingly positive, with one outlier.

Yes, I'm reading the PC Gamer review. But all the reviews are talking about some problems that I don't like (forced limited gameplay, less masks, etc).

If it's half as good as the first, I'll wait to get it and get Ori first, which is getting better reviews.

 

[IAmRandom31]

I didn't write any of the reviews, and I am supremely of the mindset 'if you like it, fantastic', but I don't see where you're getting that from. If difficulty was the issue, wouldn't they have articulated that? Of course the scores are dependent on gameplay choices, and some reviewers didn't seem to like those choices. Not because they're secretly bad at the game, but because they didn't like the bits they mentioned.

I read all words of both reviews from PC Gamer and Videogamer. That was basically what they were articulating.

Difference in gameplay design due to larger levels and instead of being able to change masks at any time ( or when unlocked anyway ) to change the gameplay around, they were forced into a singular gameplay style based around a characters perks. Which created a tougher situation that could be frustrating.

Understandable. But, does that make a GOTY candidate turn into a 57 game? Ha.

Only way that makes any sense is if it was so much more difficult that it became frustrating and a chore to progress. Which is basically what the PC Gamer review stated.

For many people, like myself, I still have almost no clue what the hell was going on in Hotline Miami and don't really care. It was the challenge, it was the style, it was the music and the mystery that made the original so good. I hardly ever switched masks, unless I just got bored of a certain mask and wanted to look different. So that aspect wasn't a big drawing point.

And the reviews fail to mention that in the original game you didn't start out with all the masks, you had to unlock them. So the whole idea behind " it changes the dynamic " to force the changes based around character change instead of mask change, makes little sense. It took quite awhile in the original game to unlock all the masks.

So the dynamic of choosing your playstyle in the original didn't really rear its head until later playthroughs.

 

[Ridley327]

Doesn't that make the review more useful than all the others? I just read it and it talked about many of the exact things I would be interested to know before jumping into the game.

What if that score wasn't there? Would you still be motivated to explain away the reviewer's complaints by implying they must be false because no one else mentioned them?

The weird part is I remember when the Uncharted 3 debacle reignited when the AV Club gave it a C+, and they cited control issues that no one else reported on, even at Eurogamer. Lo and behold, they were the only outlet that identified the aiming issues that were later patched.

 

[Coffee Dog]

There's nothing wrong with levels designed around particular character skillsets as opposed to letting you choose your own masks. It's different, but not exactly inferior.

 

[Raptomex]

Technical issues is one thing but they can always be patched out. While nowadays it seems many games launch with ridiculous bugs, it just seems to be a thing, what can I really do about it? Wait for a patch. However, story is subjective and I can usually care less if a reviewer didn't like the story. There are some things about the gameplay changes mentioned that are questionable but I don't think it's going to deter me from enjoying the game overall. One bad review doesn't have me too worried. I don't mind the longer levels and I don't get many of the complaints about it. I prefer longer games over shorter games but more importantly I always look for replayability in my single player experience.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't really have any problem with the issues posted to be honest.

Hotline Miami is irreplaceable as a piece of brutal design work. At the end of the day I was totally absorbed in it and the meta narrative it tried to tell. For the most of the part that was the big draw for me personally when I set my expectations for the sequel. The point of Hotline Miami in essence isn't really possible to tell twice, and if an investment in the narrative is to be expected then the direction Hotline Miami 2 is taking is literally the only one it can take.

That aside the mask limitations is something I can sort of understand, but I don't mind it because it seemed like the heart was in the right place in regards to them. The new concept is a pretty decent idea because for the most of the part, the perks provided in the previous game were just that - perks. In Hotline Miami 2 there's a greater effort in individualizing each mask, and so I can respect that they trimmed down things tremendously (Besides, there was almost no reason not to pick the Zack mask in the original game once you actually got accustomed to the game).

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

what's the point of decimals in a 0-10 scale


The only thing that tells me is that the actual review scale is like 5-10

 

[Coffee Dog]

the biker was always a fun killing machine, with or without his flying knife. according to the review this character who has limited ammo and can not pick up guns...sounds not so good to be honest.

If you told me that I was forced to play as a melee only character who could do a long distance attack three times before being locked into melee again, that would sound shit too. But the reality of the situation is that the levels were designed around Biker's limitations, and there's no reason to think the ammo centric character is any different, unless somehow the hotline miami devs took a nasty bump on the head and forgot how to design levels.

You know what is a lot more plausible? That a game critic is shit at games and can't manage ammo.

 

[UrbanRats]

The PC Gamer review focuses on the thing I wondered about being the big sticking point for detractors of this game: namely, the more restrictive nature of the set characters for each level. I think that's going to be a divisive change for some.

I actually really liked Only God Forgives, though, so hey!

It's like you, me and another 3 people in the world (one being Refn).
Well, i wouldn't even say "really" liked it, but i found it more interesting than Drive, myself.

 

[DryvBy]

I was buying this regardless. The game looks fun and has a level editor. If I didn't like something about the first one, it was that the game eventually ends.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

gotta pick between this and Ori mate.

Fair enough, that game looks brilliant also.

 

[pantsmith]

The weird part is I remember when the Uncharted 3 debacle reignited when the AV Club gave it a C+, and they cited control issues that no one else reported on, even at Eurogamer. Lo and behold, they were the only outlet that identified the aiming issues that were later patched.

Supposedly Naughty Dog themselves had no idea either, because I remember them asking the community for specific feedback.

Sometimes reviewers are blind to a problem, sometimes they are the only ones who notice or even care. Opinions are as varied as the people who have them.

 

[mclem]

I read all words of both reviews from PC Gamer and Videogamer. That was basically what they were articulating.

Eurogamer's review articulates similar concerns, but is still ultimately positive. I think there's a hint across all three of the idea that the changes are interesting but don't quite work, when the original had consistently great simplicity.

I try not to bag on review content but...

"Hotline Miami 2 improves upon its predecessor in a way that is pleasing, but non-essential. And to get there, it undercut the one thing that made the original great. Hotline Miami was nasty, brutish, and short. Hotline Miami 2, sadly, is not."

Which of the three things they listed is the ONE thing that made the original great.

As I said upthread, "nasty, brutish, and short" is a literary quote which is only actually referencing one concept, despite using three descriptors for it.

 

[GavinUK86]

It's like you, me and another 3 people in the world (one being Refn).
Well, i wouldn't even say "really" liked it, but i found it more interesting than Drive, myself.

I liked Only God Forgives too! That's 4 of us. At this rate we might be able to start a fanclub.

 

[MattyG]

Wow... they fucked up this game? How is it possible?

The original is one of the best games I've ever played... I though they couldn't get this to be worse. Maybe more of the same.

But then, the reviews are saying other thing. I'll wait to get this now...

The reviews are fine, come on now.

 

[Tain]

I'm going to pass on this one. I thought the original was weak, and it sounds like this has a pretty similar structure. Not surprisingly!

I'd like to hear the soundtrack, though.

 

[ByakuyaEXT]

After really enjoying Driveclub and The Order and questioning how the fuck Mordor got GotY, I find myself paying less and less attention to mainstream games press.

Yep pretty much this

 

[mr teaspoon]

I read all words of both reviews from PC Gamer and Videogamer. That was basically what they were articulating.

Difference in gameplay design due to larger levels and instead of being able to change masks at any time ( or when unlocked anyway ) to change the gameplay around, they were forced into a singular gameplay style based around a characters perks. Which created a tougher situation that could be frustrating.

Understandable. But, does that make a GOTY candidate turn into a 57 game? Ha.

I dunno, I guess in the opinion of some people it does. So you disagree with them. No big deal.

Only way that makes any sense is if it was so much more difficult that it became frustrating and a chore to progress. Which is basically what the PC Gamer review stated.

No, here's where I take issue with what you're saying. You're kind of simultaneously saying 'they said all of those things' and then implying they aren't being forthright. If you're saying they disliked the difficulty, and they said as much, then fine. It's a review you disagree with, then. But if you're saying 'they gave it a low score because they suck at the game and just won't say so, and are unfairly taking it out on the game', that's a contradiction.

I also disagree that the reviews only make sense in that context. It's just not true. I find it perfectly believable that they could just dislike the changes for the sake of it, they just don't find they make the game more fun.

For many people, like myself, I still have almost no clue what the hell was going on in Hotline Miami and don't really care. It was the challenge, it was the style, it was the music and the mystery that made the original so good. I hardly ever switched masks, unless I just got bored of a certain mask and wanted to look different. So that aspect wasn't a big drawing point.

Oh. Well sounds like some reviewers thought differently.

 

[AwShucks]

I'm going to wait for some non critic impressions but I just tried the first on Vita last night to see if I'd like it on that versus PC. I thought it felt great, so I definitely am thinking of picking this up on Vita.

 

[GhostRidah]

Up to the 5th act, game is amazing just like the first one. I just need to buy the soundtrack, soooo good.

Edit: oops thought this was the OT.

 

[IAmRandom31]

I dunno, I guess in the opinion of some people it does. So you disagree with them. No big deal.



No, here's where I take issue with what you're saying. You're kind of simultaneously saying 'they said all of those things' and then implying they aren't being forthright. If you're saying they disliked the difficulty, and they said as much, then fine. It's a review you disagree with, then. But if you're saying 'they gave it a low score because they suck at the game and just won't say so, and are unfairly taking it out on the game', that's a contradiction.

I also disagree that the reviews only make sense in that context. It's just not true. I find it perfectly believable that they could just dislike the changes for the sake of it, they just don't find they make the game more fun.



Oh. Well sounds like some reviewers thought differently.

But of course nothing is addressed when it comes to the fact that in the original game you did not have unlocked masks. You start out with just a single mask, then unlock them as the game progresses. I finished the game my first time around with like 10-12 masks available. Some of them so arbitrary in the difference ( like more gore or more ammo or french translations or playing in darkness ).

So really the mask stuff was more for replays overall.

Imagine the frustration of facing down an enemy that can only be wounded with bullets while playing as a character who is out of ammo but isn't, for some reason, allowed to use the guns that are right there. That's Hotline Miami 2.

Frustrations is a repeating theme in the review. Frustration with mask limitations, frustration with map size, frustration with scenarios they run into due to the gameplay changes. What breeds frustration? Death. Lots and lots of death. If you were plowing through the game without issue you wouldn't get frustrated.

There are sequences that capture the original's grueling, rewarding sense of escalating power and violence, but far more that entirely frustrate.

Again frustration is a key factor.

The use of guns is frequently mandated by the placement of melee-proof enemies, long sight-lines and distant snipers

Which also occured in the first game quite often. Hell you could plow through the whole game using mainly guns due to out of sight enemies that would rush you throughout the first game, but it was the experimentation in killing people in various different ways or taking out a group an entirely different way, despite them coming from off screen, that made the first one what it was.

Most reviewers seem to accept the game for what it is and for what it is trying to do. Not harping on wanting the game to ... I dunno I guess be the exact same game as the last. Seems the bad reviews ( all 2 of em ) wanted the game to be a near identical game as the last one with no changes or any new ideas. I thought that was shunned? * shrug *

 

[Gurthang]

I didn't use guns in the first game unless I absolutely had to. It seems this one has more open and large levels which forces you to use guns. Do not sound good.

Still will get the game.

 

[Messofanego]

I read all words of both reviews from PC Gamer and Videogamer. That was basically what they were articulating.

Difference in gameplay design due to larger levels and instead of being able to change masks at any time ( or when unlocked anyway ) to change the gameplay around, they were forced into a singular gameplay style based around a characters perks. Which created a tougher situation that could be frustrating.

Understandable. But, does that make a GOTY candidate turn into a 57 game? Ha.

Only way that makes any sense is if it was so much more difficult that it became frustrating and a chore to progress. Which is basically what the PC Gamer review stated.

For many people, like myself, I still have almost no clue what the hell was going on in Hotline Miami and don't really care. It was the challenge, it was the style, it was the music and the mystery that made the original so good. I hardly ever switched masks, unless I just got bored of a certain mask and wanted to look different. So that aspect wasn't a big drawing point.

And the reviews fail to mention that in the original game you didn't start out with all the masks, you had to unlock them. So the whole idea behind " it changes the dynamic " to force the changes based around character change instead of mask change, makes little sense. It took quite awhile in the original game to unlock all the masks.

So the dynamic of choosing your playstyle in the original didn't really rear its head until later playthroughs.

Let me guess. You haven't finished this game (or even played it), and yet you already call it a GOTY candidate. Ha.

Oh no, they gave a "GOTY candidate" a 57 with valid criticisms!

Look man, if the design choices don't bother you, then just go ahead and play the game. But they're worth bringing up in reviews, and some critics might not like them. Not a big deal at all.

 

[Zeliard]

I dunno I guess be the exact same game as the last. Seems the bad reviews ( all 2 of em ) wanted the game to be a near identical game as the last one with no changes or any new ideas. I thought that was shunned? * shrug *

I don't get the impression that they wanted the exact same game. It just seems to me that they didn't like the actual changes that were made. The PC Gamer review criticizes the specific changes rather than calling for no change.

 

[IAmRandom31]

I don't get the impression that they wanted the exact same game. It just seems to me that they didn't like the actual changes that were made. The PC Gamer review criticizes the specific changes rather than calling for no change.

But if the changes weren't made it would essentially be the exact same game as before. It all just sounds like an already tough game was made a bit tougher and that lead to more frustration, which led to questioning design decisions and eventually just not liking the game. Which hey, understandable.

Let me guess. You haven't finished this game (or even played it), and yet you already call it a GOTY candidate. Ha.

Oh no, they gave a "GOTY candidate" a 57 with valid criticisms!

Look man, if the design choices don't bother you, then just go ahead and play the game. But they're worth bringing up in reviews, and some critics might not like them. Not a big deal at all.

Thanks, I shall go ahead and play the game. I'm not making a big deal out of anything. Just discussing the merits of individual reviews. That is allowed?

Anyway, I've made my point. I could be completely wrong, just saying what it sounds like to me as I read the more negative reviews.

 

[Salsa]

I didn't use guns in the first game unless I absolutely had to. It seems this one has more open and large levels which forces you to use guns. Do not sound good.

Still will get the game.

not really so far. lethal throws can save you there too

 

[Kerned]

But if the changes weren't made it would essentially be the exact same game as before. It all just sounds like an already tough game was made a bit tougher and that lead to more frustration, which led to questioning design decisions and eventually just not liking the game. Which hey, understandable.



Thanks, I shall go ahead and play the game. I'm not making a big deal out of anything. Just discussing the merits of individual reviews. That is allowed?

Anyway, I've made my point. I could be completely wrong, just saying what it sounds like to me as I read the more negative reviews.

How can you make any sort of informed comment on the merits of the review if you haven't even played the game?

 

[VanEpoch]

It all just sounds like an already tough game was made a bit tougher and that lead to more frustration, which led to questioning design decisions and eventually just not liking the game.

There's an awful lot of misunderstanding here. The frustration comes from places other than just being "tough" and several reviews articulate this very well.

 

[IAmRandom31]

How can you make any sort of informed comment on the merits of the review if you haven't even played the game?

because they didn't just write, " i don't like this thing ".

They articulated why they didn't like it. And I broke that down and put my thoughts toward it. Nowhere did I write my own opinion on the current product. And multiple times stated I could be completely wrong. The negative reviews were an anomaly so I checked them out first and put my opinions toward what they thought were the negative aspects of the product.

My main focus was the 57/100 though, as that is a severe drop compared to the vast majority of the other reviews.

So was just trying to understand what could cause such a massive drop from the original game and a different opinion from the others. And to go from loving one game, and essentially hating the next one ( the review states the only reason they continued playing was because they had to ), one of the main things in this type of game would essentially it being frustratingly difficult, sapping any enjoyment potential from the product. And frustration caused by changes in some of the design of the original Hotline Miami.

 

[adarker]

I liked the first one well enough but you all ready know this will hit plus in a few months.

 

[alenade]

I've been playing this for a few hours today and while I understand some of the criticisms, I've had a lot of fun. I have run into a lot of issues. Dogs more often than not get stuck spinning around in circles, and if two men enter a doorframe simultaneously the same thing often happens. Nothing game breaking but definitely patch-worthy.

Now something that is game breaking occurs when you play as

Spoiler

Alex and Ash--the duo with the chainsaw and guns. The gun member gets stuck in the other room and makes it very difficult to work strategy into ranged enemies.

Overall it's definitely different but fun, and the music is still incredible.

 

[Messofanego]

I've been playing this for a few hours today and while I understand some of the criticisms, I've had a lot of fun. I have run into a lot of issues. Dogs more often than not get stuck spinning around in circles, and if two men enter a doorframe simultaneously the same thing often happens. Nothing game breaking but definitely patch-worthy.

Now something that is game breaking occurs when you play as

Spoiler

Alex and Ash--the duo with the chainsaw and guns. The gun member gets stuck in the other room and makes it very difficult to work strategy into ranged enemies.

Overall it's definitely different but fun, and the music is still incredible.

Heh, Chris Thursten of PC Gamer gif'ed that: https://twitter.com/CThursten/status/575310665935646720

 

[stopthenadness]

I don't get how you have a thread about reviews for a game, 90% of the reviews are overwhelmingly positive yet some people hyperventilate over one or two bad apples.

 

[Messofanego]

I don't get how you have a thread about reviews for a game, 90% of the reviews are overwhelmingly positive yet some people hyperventilate over one or two bad apples.

Guess humans just gravitate towards the negative. The news, for example.

 

[120v]

i was going to wait until i got a ways into the game before i said anything... but that PC Gamer review is absolute garbage. smh that somebody got paid to write that

 

[Messofanego]

The Guardian - Andy Kelly

Hotline Miami 2 is as feverish and hyper-violent as the first title, but the linear design and bloated narrative detract ruinously from the core thrill.

Loses freeform nature

Disappointingly, however, there aren’t as many of these opportunities for improvisation as there are in the first game. Hotline Miami 2 is, compared to its predecessor, a much more linear experience, regularly pressuring you into a specific play style. As the game jumps between time periods, filling out the original’s backstory, you’re forced to play as characters with very specific strengths and weaknesses. One can kill an enemy with a single punch, but can’t pick up dropped weapons. Another starts with a gun, but is stuck with it for the entire level.

This takes you out of your comfort zone, encouraging you to adopt new tactics and play in different ways. But it also diminishes the freeform structure that made the first game such a compelling score attack sandbox. All too often you feel like you’re playing it the way the developers want you to, rather than coming up with your own strategy. It’s an impressively varied game, with frequent shifts in tone and multiple playable characters, but this has watered down the elegant precision that was central to the original.

Level design breaks combo

Level design is also an issue, with maps that are way too big. In these large spaces you spend more time holding the shift key to look ahead, taking pot shots around corners at off-screen enemies, than rushing in and taking risks. This breaks your combo, and doesn’t feel very Hotline Miami – the original game seemed designed to encourage reckless endeavour, it told you that it’s okay to die. But now, carefully clearing a floor, only to be instantly killed by an unseen sniper a screen away, is maddening. Inconsistent AI, bugs, and a steep difficulty curve only add to the frustration. The original’s levels were the perfect size for score-improving replays, but I felt no urge to master these oversized, meandering maps. I was just glad they were over.

Setpieces rather than playgrounds

Hotline Miami 2 is a messy, aimless sequel and a step back from the original. Many of its levels feel like crafted set-pieces rather than playgrounds for violent expression, and your scope for creativity is stifled as a result. When you’re deep in the moment, chaining kills as that remarkable soundtrack vibrates through your headphones, it feels fantastic. But it struggles to hold onto that feeling as firmly as the first game, diluting the purity of its compelling core loop with an endless parade of under-developed ideas.

 

[Raptomex]

I don't get how you have a thread about reviews for a game, 90% of the reviews are overwhelmingly positive yet some people hyperventilate over one or two bad apples.

Yeah, it's amazing. I finally played the game last night and while I agree with the big level issue, overall the game is great. I haven't run into any technical issues yet and story is subjective. One bad review out of the pack and people go crazy.

 

[MMaRsu]

I liked the first one well enough but you all ready know this will hit plus in a few months.

Just like Octodad and Knack amirite?

 

[ReConstructDead]

I don't get how you have a thread about reviews for a game, 90% of the reviews are overwhelmingly positive yet some people hyperventilate over one or two bad apples.

Exactly.
That would be like a game getting 90% shite reviews, then one or two outlets give it an 8, and then some people calling it a GOTY candidate.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

guess ill wait for PS+

gotta pick between this and Ori mate.

So despite being interested in the game, because it's out at the same time as another game you want you'll wait probably wait 12+ months for it to show up on PS+?!

 

[bigjig]

The PC Gamer reviewer is Chris Thursten? I'll give this game a pass then, tend to agree with most of his opinions on the Crate and Crowbar podcast

 

[MUnited83]

I liked the first one well enough but you all ready know this will hit plus in a few months.

It won't.

 

[Marceles]

Hotline Miami was nasty, brutish, and short. Hotline Miami 2, sadly, is not.

*blinks rapidly* Not sure if I played the same game as he did