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[Sho_Nuff82]

...which backs up the whole argument that the general public prefer waggle / 'novelty' / more immersive control systems to graphical splendour, no?

What the hell are you talking about? Halo 3 and Madden are still going to outsell every other console game released this year 2x over in the US. However, Guitar Hero's healthy sales show that the 360 isn't only selling to shooting fans, doesn't it? You have to love how people can selectively invoke the power of sales-age when it's convenient to them, and then ignore it otherwise.

Yes, people do enjoy novelty control systems, I haven't argued that point at all. People do still enjoy traditionally controlled games though, you seem to be missing that point.

It really doesn't. Unless you are excluding all of the shovelware ports on the Wii.

So the Wii has more and better RPGs than the 360?
More and better free-roam games?
More and better sports games?
More and better shooters?
More and better racing games?
More and better RTS?
More and better puzzle games?
More and better fighting games?

Really, I hate list wars, but this post is so completely full of **** I'd love to see a response. Like I said above, delusional hyperbole. I'm not blind to what the Wii has accomplished and what it will mean to the industry, but let's not re-write history in the process by claiming its because the Wii has suddenly blown past the PS2 in game releases.

I also find it highly disingenuous for people to claim that games like Crackdown, The Outfit, Just Cause, Saints Row, Condemned, Hitman etc are so different to being shooters they can't possibly be classified as them or that DIRT and Forza are so different to each other they can't be defined as 'racers'.

Again, what are you talking about? I was responding to someone's claim above that the 360 isn't selling because "all it has is FPS". A simple glance at any available release list will show this isn't true, a quick search through gamerankings will destroy the "well the only good games are shooters" comment, and it's stupifyingly idiotic to hear coming from a Wii fan that the 360 lineup lacks diversity when MS has had the lion's share of significant 3rd party releases over the past 2 years.

Read it again. I clearly called Dirt and Forza racing games. One is a sim racer, one is an arcade rally racer. Calling a free-roam, GTA-like game a 'shooter' just because they feature gunplay is shortsighted, would you call Devil May Cry or Dead Rising a shooter just because you can (and often, must) use guns?

Japan, with the highest concentration of HD capable displays, has turned down the HD consoles, which are cheaper there than anywhere else.

Japan has no bearing on the tastes of the rest of the world and vice versa. If it did, we wouldn't be having this conversation as the 360 would already be dead.

 

[Andronicus]

Japan has no bearing on the tastes of the rest of the world and vice versa. If it did, we wouldn't be having this conversation as the 360 would already be dead.

gta san andreas and oblivion sales in japan would beg to differ. as well as the ff franchise, metal gear series, fire emblem, etc sales worldwide.

not to mention online gaming is growing in japan, something that used to be a more western trend.

 

[PapiShasho]

Sales leader = Highest support from 3rd.
No one will need to wait for Nintendo gems.

Let's put it this way. There is no way Nintendo is getting the highest support from 3rd party devs, period, case closed, end of story. Simply NO way, I don't care how much they sell.

The Wii hardware limits what most devs can do with a game, and since Nintendo insists on skimping on the hardware end to rake in the profits, they get the least 3rd party support.

 

[ksamedi]

Let's put it this way. There is no way Nintendo is getting the highest support from 3rd party devs, period, case closed, end of story. Simply NO way, I don't care how much they sell.

The Wii hardware limits what most devs can do with a game, and since Nintendo insists on skimping on the hardware end to rake in the profits, they get the least 3rd party support.

WTF are you talking about dude. Devs could care about Hardware power, or the Wiimote, whatever they care about it doesnt matter because the publisher is the one who makes the decisions.

 

[jaundicejuice]

Let's put it this way. There is no way Nintendo is getting the highest support from 3rd party devs, period, case closed, end of story. Simply NO way, I don't care how much they sell.

The Wii hardware limits what most devs can do with a game, and since Nintendo insists on skimping on the hardware end to rake in the profits, they get the least 3rd party support.

Yeah, like the DS, right?

 

[PapiShasho]

Yeah, like the DS, right?

Handheld gaming does not equal console gaming.

Nintendo did everything right with the DS, no doubt. Speaking of which, is Level 39 - Quest Mode in Magnetica even possible to beat?

 

[PapiShasho]

WTF are you talking about dude. Devs could care about Hardware power, or the Wiimote, whatever they care about it doesnt matter because the publisher is the one who makes the decisions.

And publishers decide to publish on the console they feel would buy the game most, not the console with the most users.

You think a game like Halo 3 would sell more on Wii or on the PS3? And a game like Gears of War? And a game like, well, ANY game that doesn't include Mario, Link, Or Metroid as main character?

Wii is a cute little system, and I'm a future owner once Galaxy hits, but let's not kid ourselves. It's not gonna outsell the 360 in NA, and it will never have the most 3rd party support.

 

[devilscallmedad]

WTF are you talking about dude. Devs could care about Hardware power, or the Wiimote, whatever they care about it doesnt matter because the publisher is the one who makes the decisions.

A. "Spoiled devs" they'll do whatever they want, Rockstar, Valve, Blizzard etc etc Money doesnot sway them.

B. Even with killing PSP in sales, DS still lacks major third party support. GTA, Tekken, Silent Hill, MGS..etc etc are on PSP not DS.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

So the Wii has more and better RPGs than the 360?
More and better free-roam games?
More and better sports games?
More and better shooters?
More and better racing games?
More and better RTS?
More and better puzzle games?
More and better fighting games?

Really, I hate list wars, but this post is so completely full of **** I'd love to see a response. Like I said above, delusional hyperbole. I'm not blind to what the Wii has accomplished and what it will mean to the industry, but let's not re-write history in the process by claiming its because the Wii has suddenly blown past the PS2 in game releases.

I owna 360 and have more games for it than the Wii, but I'm not delusionally claiming that the 360s lineup is "so much more diverse" than the Wiis. Because it isn't. You don't need to attach 'more and better' to prove your point, you need to look at proportional distribution.

If the 360 had one and only one totally awesome puzzle game (for example), better than anything puzzle related on any other platform, it wouldn't mean that the 360 has a diverse range of software - it would mean that the 360 has one puzzle game that is good quality.

Before you do start your inevitable list war, are you including XBLA? And excluding VC? And excluding games that have been released on other 'last gen' platforms?

Because that is the only possible way I can see someone looking at the Wiis current lineup and the 360s and saying that the 360s is far more diverse, and the 360 has been out for a lot longer with more than half-assed 3rd party support.

EDIT:
Let me clarify;

the 360 has... what, 3 free roam games?
A ton of sports games (we all know that)
A ton of shooters (ditto)
A ton of racers (likewise)
2 RTS games?
1 puzzle game retail?
1 fighter?
2 RPGs?

Having one token entry in a genre doesn't make for a diverse lineup

 

[ksamedi]

A. "Spoiled devs" they'll do whatever they want, Rockstar, Valve, Blizzard etc etc Money doesnot sway them.

B. Even with killing PSP in sales, DS still lacks major third party support. GTA, Tekken, Silent Hill, MGS..etc etc are on PSP not DS.

A: Sure, thats why Rockstar make games for the Wii all of a sudden, Valve mentioned that they didnt see the Wii coming and that they want to make games for it and Blizzard is pretty much PC only, they tried on the consoles and failed.

B: Western DS support is rising and is now better then PSPs, thats because the DS has been selling like crazy in the west since the DS light, which launched about a year ago. I wont even argue Japanese third party support because thats pointless.

 

[TJ Spyke]

It's not gonna outsell the 360 in NA, and it will never have the most 3rd party support.

So the fact that the Wii has been outselling Xbox 360 in North America every month this year (outselling it almost 2-1 in the US in June alone) means nothing? Haha. It may take a little longer than worldwide, but at this point it is just a matter of WHEN it overtakes the Xbox 360 in North America, not if. Also, the PS2 proved that the weakest hardware can have the most support if it is beating the competition (the fact that the Wii has already completely erased the one year head start Microsoft had says something).

 

[PapiShasho]

So the fact that the Wii has been outselling Xbox 360 in North America every month this year (outselling it almost 2-1 in the US in June alone) means nothing? Haha. It may take a little longer than worldwide, but at this point it is just a matter of WHEN it overtakes the Xbox 360 in North America, not if. Also, the PS2 proved that the weakest hardware can have the most support if it is beating the competition (the fact that the Wii has already completely erased the one year head start Microsoft had says something).

That's fine, and there might be a point where the Wii indeed does overtake the 360 in NA, but that won't last very long. Halo 3 will sell a shitload of consoles whether you like it or not, once GTA IV hits, etc...wait until the holiday season is over before you make that assumption...

What's the Wii's "killer app" this holiday season, again?

 

[ksamedi]

And publishers decide to publish on the console they feel would buy the game most, not the console with the most users.

You think a game like Halo 3 would sell more on Wii or on the PS3? And a game like Gears of War? And a game like, well, ANY game that doesn't include Mario, Link, Or Metroid as main character?

Wii is a cute little system, and I'm a future owner once Galaxy hits, but let's not kid ourselves. It's not gonna outsell the 360 in NA, and it will never have the most 3rd party support.

Your talking like your bluffing on a poker table, you have no argumant, just statements. Wii games sell, that Nintendo makes games with more mass appeal is a problem for third parties not Nintendo. All significant efforts have sold on Wii, its just that there isnt enough of them at the moment. Resident evil, RedSteel, Rayman and Tiger woods had excellent sales, thats a wide selection of titles and proves that third parties can sell on the Wii.

 

[lockload]

People should forget about actual console sales numbers what matters is Software sales numbers for third party publishers..

 

[devilscallmedad]

A: Sure, thats why they make games for the Wii all of a sudden.

B: Western DS support is rising and is now better then PSPs, thats because the DS has been selling like crazy in the west since the DS light, which launched about a year ago. I wont even argue Japanese third party support because thats pointless.

A. Just talking about the big devs, publisher's can't force them to make games for the Wii. Valve will make whatever they want to, i.e the "big name games" aren't going anywhere.

B. Excluding square enix, is there any major third party DS game?

 

[ksamedi]

That's fine, and there might be a point where the Wii indeed does overtake the 360 in NA, but that won't last very long. Halo 3 will sell a shitload of consoles whether you like it or not, once GTA IV hits, etc...wait until the holiday season is over before you make that assumption...

What's the Wii's "killer app" this holiday season, again?

Its Smash brothers, its sales are equal to Halo and will probably outsell it this time around. Remember, Halo did nothing for the Xbox and it wont do anything for the 360 because its not a audiance widening game. You have lots of titles on 360 that resemble Halo and are excellent in quality.

 

[avatar299]

What's the Wii's "killer app" this holiday season, again?

Super mario Galaxy and Super Smash Bros. Both of their immediate prequels sold over 5 million.

 

[PapiShasho]

that Nintendo makes games with more mass appeal is a problem for third parties not Nintendo.

And that's why the Wii will never have the highest 3rd party support.

 

[PapiShasho]

Super mario Galaxy

I didn't know it was coming this holiday, so Wii sale +1

 

[ksamedi]

A. Just talking about the big devs, publisher's can't force them to make games for the Wii. Valve will make whatever they want to, i.e the "big name games" aren't going anywhere.

B. Excluding square enix, is there any major third party DS game?

Well ignoring Square Enix is ignoring Japans second biggest publisher but anyway, Ninja Gaiden, Contra, Pro evolution soccer, Tales of series, Phoenix wright, ASH, and what not. I cant even list them all, its basically only DS in Japan, even more then Wii.

 

[Gahiggidy]

And that's why the Wii will never have the highest 3rd party support.

Yes it will, be default.

 

[avatar299]

I didn't know it was coming this holiday, so Wii sale +1

uhhhhh....:lol :lol :lol

 

[soco]

Its Smash brothers, its sales are equal to Halo and will probably outsell it this time around. Remember, Halo did nothing for the Xbox and it wont do anything for the 360 because its not a audiance widening game. You have lots of titles on 360 that resemble Halo and are excellent in quality.

according to wikipedia, halo 1 sold over 2x as much as SSBM. halo 2, sold about 2 million more.

 

[PapiShasho]

Halo did nothing for the Xbox and it wont do anything for the 360

:lol :lol :lol

You think there aren't TONS of people who were waiting for the hardware to be upgraded, which it has, and for Halo 3 to come out which it will? Are you joking or are you really that delusional?

Halo 3 will sell a TON of consoles.

 

[heliosRAzi]

according to wikipedia, halo 1 sold over 2x as much as SSBM. halo 2, sold about 2 million more.

Also according to Wikipedia, Halo 2 sold about as much as Goldeneye.

 

[avatar299]

according to wikipedia, halo 1 sold over 2x as much as SSBM. halo 2, sold about 2 million more.

To be fair, melee didn't have a sequel so there is no knowing how many people played the game a year or 2 or 3 after it launched and would buy brawl this year.

SSB selling next to Halo isn't impossible at the slightest.

 

[ksamedi]

And that's why the Wii will never have the highest 3rd party support.

So that means that some publishers will shrink there buisness, why? Because they have a smalles userbase to sell too and higher costs then the PS2 generation. Believe it or not but nobody runs a buisness like that, EA, Activision, Take Two, THQ are not stupid you knwo, they have the quality to make good selling titles and they will do so even if it takes firing a lot of staff and reorganising.

 

[segarr]

That's fine, and there might be a point where the Wii indeed does overtake the 360 in NA, but that won't last very long. Halo 3 will sell a shitload of consoles whether you like it or not, once GTA IV hits, etc...wait until the holiday season is over before you make that assumption...

What's the Wii's "killer app" this holiday season, again?

Wii has SSB, Mario Galaxy, and I believe that Metroid Prime 3 is closing out what they are calling "the big 3".

Anyways, I'm shocked that people could be calling this thing so early. As much as people should be admitting that wii is spanking the competition right now, I think Nintendo fans should at least consider the fact that the Wii is at least slightly trendy and faddish, and therefore, leaves there permanent spot in the market in question.

I think that the well will dry up eventually, at least in NA, and I believe it will happen significantly sooner then it will for PS3 and 360, whether or not Wii's lead will be big enough by then for them to walk away with this I could not say.

I think that Wii people are buying into the "Wii is bringing in a new audience" hype a little too heavily....as if Nintendo is going to make gaming all of a sudden the "hip" thing to do or something. I simply don't see a "soccer mom future" for gaming, no do I see a "sorority future", or "grandpa future"....the well is going to run dry eventually (I believe after this Christmas when all this shortage crap is over and done with, and everyone whose been waiting for one, finally gets it), and only then will we know whats really going to have lasting appeal this gen.

 

[Shaheed79]

Let's put it this way. There is no way Nintendo is getting the highest support from 3rd party devs, period, case closed, end of story. Simply NO way, I don't care how much they sell.

The Wii hardware limits what most devs can do with a game, and since Nintendo insists on skimping on the hardware end to rake in the profits, they get the least 3rd party support.

lol

"Developers" don't have a choice because the Publishers won't finance PS3 games if they can make more Wii games instead. This might result in a lower quality product with some developers who reluctantly are forced to make Wii games against their will but a lot of devs will embrace the potential for higher returns due to low development costs. We already have reports of Publishers turning down PS3/360 projects and instead telling them to bring them Wii game proposals. You think this is isolated? If so you are very foolish my friend.

 

[Shaheed79]

GTA nor Halo 3 are going to stop Wii. Especially Halo 3. I don't know what to tell you guys except that if those games fail to change the tides then its pretty much all over.

 

[ksamedi]

:lol :lol :lol

You think there aren't TONS of people who were waiting for the hardware to be upgraded, which it has, and for Halo 3 to come out which it will? Are you joking or are you really that delusional?

Halo 3 will sell a TON of consoles.

Its funny that you only quote a small part of what i said because i explain myself in the rest. Halo 3 will sell consoles for sure, but inot in the manner that Wiisports does, its appeal is limited to the Xbox audiance. Those who didnt buy one already will buy it but most of the people who like Halo probably already bought one for Gears and other stuff. Besides, hardware sales jumps because of games arent that big in the US.

 

[avatar299]

Anyways, I'm shocked that people could be calling this thing so early. As much as people should be admitting that wii is spanking the competition right now, I think Nintendo fans should at least consider the fact that the Wii is at least slightly trendy and faddish, and therefore, leaves there permanent spot in the market in question.

The Wii is slightly faddish, but the 360 and the PS3 are lock hard in our culture now?

I think that Wii people are buying into the "Wii is bringing in a new audience" hype a little too heavily....as if Nintendo is going to make gaming all of a sudden the "hip" thing to do or something. I simply don't see a "soccer mom future" for gaming, no do I see a "sorority future", or "grandpa future"....the well is going to run dry eventually (I believe after this Christmas when all this shortage crap is over and done with, and everyone whose been waiting for one, finally gets it), and only then will we know whats really going to have lasting appeal this gen.

Why would the well dry up. People state it like it is a fact, but they have no proof. Nothing prior in histroy to base that on.

I mean, if this was bound to happen then why is the DS still so successful?

 

[PapiShasho]

So that means that some publishers will shrink there buisness, why? Because they have a smalles userbase to sell too and higher costs then the PS2 generation. Believe it or not but nobody runs a buisness like that, EA, Activision, Take Two, THQ are not stupid you knwo, they have the quality to make good selling titles and they will do so even if it takes firing a lot of staff and reorganising.

Most of the BIG games will sell more on the 360 or PS3 than on the Wii, regardless of userbase.

Nintendo's BIG 3 is what sells on the Wii, and Pokemon, and cute little sim games.

Epic games won't sell on it because if the games are also on 360 and PS3, with considerably better graphics, people will buy it on those systems.

Anyone buying Madden 08 for the Wii? :lol

 

[Gahiggidy]

Let's put it this way. There is no way Nintendo is getting the highest support from 3rd party devs, period, case closed, end of story. Simply NO way, I don't care how much they sell.

..

PapiShasho,

You are overlooking that there has to be other consoles for third parties to support. Don't you think its possible one or two of the three console makers might not make it? You can't publish games on a dead system. There is only console that is making money for its manufacturer. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[schuelma]

I didn't know it was coming this holiday, so Wii sale +1

Wow...how can you possibly engage in a discusion about Wii sales when you didn't know when Mario freaking Galaxy was coming out?

And to answer your question about Wii's system seller...its been out for about 8 months now.

 

[soco]

To be fair, melee didn't have a sequel so there is no knowing how many people played the game a year or 2 or 3 after it launched and would buy brawl this year.

SSB selling next to Halo isn't impossible at the slightest.

what does that have to do with being fair? melee was a sequel to SSB, and it sold fewer copies (at least according to wikipedia). being that more people will own a Wii than a GC, it's quite possible it'll sell more copies than melee, but who knows.

the sales are a pretty good indication of how many people bought the game, even 2-3 years after launch.

 

[PapiShasho]

Wow...how can you possibly engage in a discusion about Wii sales when you didn't know when Mario freaking Galaxy was coming out?

And to answer your question about Wii's system seller...its been out for about 8 months now.

I don't follow release dates, I know whenever I see Galaxy out, I buy a Wii. Until then, I have no interest in playing a game I can already play an identical version of on my gamecube (Zelda TP)

 

[Shaheed79]

I think that Wii people are buying into the "Wii is bringing in a new audience" hype a little too heavily....as if Nintendo is going to make gaming all of a sudden the "hip" thing to do or something.

Look around you that is exactly what is happening. As long as Nintendo keeps making games like Wii Sports to appeal to that market they will keep buying. You're talking as if Nintendo will never have another hit like that again therefore casual gamers will loose interest. It's a videogame system not a tickle me elmo.

 

[avatar299]

Anyone buying Madden 08 for the Wii? :lol

madden '08 is an epic game?

I wouldn't really be talking about the wii game line-up If I was you. You apparently know nothing about it.

 

[PapiShasho]

PapiShasho,

You are overlooking that there has to be other consoles for third parties to support. Don't you think its possible one or two of the three console makers might not make it? You can't publish games on a dead system. There is only console that is making money for its manufacturer. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

It's not about userbase for publishers though, it's for sales of THAT game.

For publishers of game that will cater to Nintendo's userbase, then I'm sure it's a no brainer.

Where do you think Madden will sell more copies? Wii or PS3? You think EA is itching to make a "special" version for the Wii because it has SO MANY USERS, or do they know it won't sell much there anyway so they'll just throw a downgraded port on it?

 

[ksamedi]

Most of the BIG games will sell more on the 360 or PS3 than on the Wii, regardless of userbase.

Nintendo's BIG 3 is what sells on the Wii, and Pokemon, and cute little sim games.

Epic games won't sell on it because if the games are also on 360 and PS3, with considerably better graphics, people will buy it on those systems.

Anyone buying Madden 08 for the Wii? :lol

First of all, its not the issue of selling well on next generation consoles, its how much you will sell compared to the PS2 erra. If a publisher shrinks because of higher costs of developing games and lower sales on next generation formats compared to the PS2, then they will change and reorganise to adapt to new conditions. Its simple, investors want growth, and publishers want that too, leaving the Wii out of the equation means that your leaving a lot of money on the table, nobody would be that stupid.

 

[titiklabingapat]

So the Wii has more and better RPGs than the 360?
More and better free-roam games?
More and better sports games?
More and better shooters?
More and better racing games?
More and better RTS?
More and better puzzle games?
More and better fighting games?

Really, I hate list wars, but this post is so completely full of **** I'd love to see a response. Like I said above, delusional hyperbole. I'm not blind to what the Wii has accomplished and what it will mean to the industry, but let's not re-write history in the process by claiming its because the Wii has suddenly blown past the PS2 in game releases.

Does it matter? They don't really have waggle.

Anyways, I'm shocked that people could be calling this thing so early. As much as people should be admitting that wii is spanking the competition right now, I think Nintendo fans should at least consider the fact that the Wii is at least slightly trendy and faddish, and therefore, leaves there permanent spot in the market in question.

Oh, people like you still exist. Hi.

 

[Shaheed79]

It's not about userbase for publishers though, it's for sales of THAT game.

For publishers of game that will cater to Nintendo's userbase, then I'm sure it's a no brainer.

Where do you think Madden will sell more copies? Wii or PS3? You think EA is itching to make a "special" version for the Wii because it has SO MANY USERS, or do they know it won't sell much there anyway so they'll just throw a downgraded port on it?

Big publishers are a making a LOT of money on Wii. Trust me you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I don't follow release dates, I know whenever I see Galaxy out, I buy a Wii. Until then, I have no interest in playing a game I can already play an identical version of on my gamecube (Zelda TP)

You are missing out on Wii Sports. One of the most unique game experiences to come along in a long time.

 

[felipeko]

For publishers of game that will cater to Nintendo's userbase, then I'm sure it's a no brainer.

Have come to your mind that Wii's success does not come from usual Nintendo userbase?
Or else, Gamecube would have been a hit in the beginning too.. It was cheaper..

Where do you think Madden will sell more copies? Wii or PS3?

I have a permanent ban bet on that.
It will prove once for all of what is made the Wii userbase.

Untill now we don't know, we are just guessing. But NO GAME HAS UNDERPERFORMED on Wii.
Can't say the same about PS3.

 

[Gahiggidy]

First of all, its not the issue of selling well on next generation consoles, its how much you will sell compared to the PS2 erra. If a publisher shrinks because of higher costs of developing games and lower sales on next generation formats compared to the PS2, then they will change and reorganise to adapt to new conditions. Its simple, investors want growth, and publishers want that too, leaving the Wii out of the equation means that your leaving a lot of money on the table, nobody, but Sega, would be that stupid.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Lightning]

I think that the Wii are going to get the majority of casual games from 3rd parties. There is just no way that Rockstar are going to make the next GTA on the Wii, or Capcom are going to make the next Devil May Cry on the Wii, or Epic are going to make the next Unreal Tournament on the Wii etc....

Wii fans will get their games, but they are not going to get "PS2 level" of support like most fanatic Nintendo fans think it will.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Far too many idiots in this thread to make discussion worthwhile.

Carry on.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I think that the Wii are going to get the majority of casual games from 3rd parties. There is just no way that Rockstar are going to make the next GTA on the Wii, or Capcom are going to make the next Devil May Cry on the Wii, or Epic are going to make the next Unreal Tournament on the Wii etc....

...

But what if we petition?

 

[felipeko]

I think that the Wii are going to get the majority of casual games from 3rd parties. There is just no way that Rockstar are going to make the next GTA on the Wii, or Capcom are going to make the next Devil May Cry on the Wii, or Epic are going to make the next Unreal Tournament on the Wii etc....

Wii fans will get their games, but they are not going to get "PS2 level" of support like most fanatic Nintendo fans think it will.

Square-DS-Enix is taking a note on that.