Muppet of a Man
Member
More acceptence of interracial relationships...when we are all melted together, things will finally materially change.
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How can White people (EU+US) try to heal the wounds inflicted upon Black people?
- Thread starter Lime
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I just think, we have to recognize the fact that an entire people were pretty much cut out of the middle class/economy for decades. Most people today in the middle class, had family of immigrants that had to work there way up to the middle class over generations. Segregation and institutionalized racism pretty much cut out an entire people from doing this. So even if theoretically most racism was over (which it isn't), EVEN then, you would have lingering effects that would impact people greatly.
I suppose that was my point. I'm not trying to shift blame to anyone, or saying all white people should feel guilty or responsible for the past. But I think there needs to be empathy and some perspective on racial issues.
Reparations: Morally doable, yet Impossible to carry out on a practical ground. The time window for such a measure to work has passed time ago, unfortunately. Justice can only be applied into the living. I doubt that there are many living survivors of the European colonial system or the American slave trade.
Affirmative Action specifically targeting Black people. Proven as uneffective.
Higher taxes of rich and wealthy people, most notably White ones. Agreed, but do not apply a tax levy on a racial basis, even if taxing the rich means a de facto tax into whites, or else you are creating a horrible legal precedent.
Media emphasis on African-American culture and values. I think that it will be ineffective, but it's worth trying. It is already happening too, albeit on an organic basis.
Incentives for media diversity and news reporting. See above.
Watch dogs of the people in power. Good, but as far as I know, this is already enacted (heh).
Education & awareness for White people to learn about racism, privilege, and the tools on how to deal with passive, institutional and systemic racism. Seems too vague to me to either support or oppose it.
A complete reform or overhaul of the police, courts, and prisons. I honestly belive that the US prision system is by far the biggest hurdle to black progress in that country, bar none. Everything is small potatoes compared to that. European prision systems are more lenient, but police also applies "racial profiling", which ought to change.
Public apology and confirmation and reparations of past atrocities by the nations involved in the slave trade. Better late than never, I guess. But I think that you are refearing to trans-atlantic slave trade, for "regular", non-racial slavery have happend in almost every single culture on Earth at some point in history.
Secession or self-rule by African-Americans à la Native Americans? Godawful solution. Ethno-nationalism has never brought anything good to anyone, ever. The whole "let's give a nation to Afro-Americans" was already applied, with disastrous results (Liberia). Self-rule didn't brought too much prosperity for Native Americans either, even if it was the right thing to do. It's more a gesture than a practical solution.
Affirmative Action specifically targeting Black people. Proven as uneffective.
Higher taxes of rich and wealthy people, most notably White ones. Agreed, but do not apply a tax levy on a racial basis, even if taxing the rich means a de facto tax into whites, or else you are creating a horrible legal precedent.
Media emphasis on African-American culture and values. I think that it will be ineffective, but it's worth trying. It is already happening too, albeit on an organic basis.
Incentives for media diversity and news reporting. See above.
Watch dogs of the people in power. Good, but as far as I know, this is already enacted (heh).
Education & awareness for White people to learn about racism, privilege, and the tools on how to deal with passive, institutional and systemic racism. Seems too vague to me to either support or oppose it.
A complete reform or overhaul of the police, courts, and prisons. I honestly belive that the US prision system is by far the biggest hurdle to black progress in that country, bar none. Everything is small potatoes compared to that. European prision systems are more lenient, but police also applies "racial profiling", which ought to change.
Public apology and confirmation and reparations of past atrocities by the nations involved in the slave trade. Better late than never, I guess. But I think that you are refearing to trans-atlantic slave trade, for "regular", non-racial slavery have happend in almost every single culture on Earth at some point in history.
Secession or self-rule by African-Americans à la Native Americans? Godawful solution. Ethno-nationalism has never brought anything good to anyone, ever. The whole "let's give a nation to Afro-Americans" was already applied, with disastrous results (Liberia). Self-rule didn't brought too much prosperity for Native Americans either, even if it was the right thing to do. It's more a gesture than a practical solution.
Many, many cities are doing just that. Just doesn't normally work the way most want it to.
Match the billions in reparation paid to Native Americans. Match the billions that are given in foreign aid to Israel. Eventually turn this into universal health/mental care along with universal income for all citizens. USA needs to diversify from its military/prison deals and start investing more into their own citizens.
Angelus Errare
Banned
It really won't.
Even as a black man I'm a bit iffy on affirmative action. I feel like it's a rather old solution which doesn't feel all that genuine. If people already have issue with affirmative action, imagine reparations. Then you have the taxing of the rich which will affect whites and blacks alike so I don't see how that would accomplish anything. Plus people love money. Taking more of it can further drive classes apart and create issues.
Media incentives are along the same lines as affirmative action to me where there's something not so genuine about it.
I understand that a couple of decades ago we had to force the issue but now there is so much empathy and understanding out there. I feel like forcing the issue again could do more harm than good in some cases.
MrPressStart
Member
Exactly how could we help Africa! The corruption there is deep rooted and in my opinion will never improve.
Pseudo_Sam
Survives without air, food, or water
Time. Seems like the only realistic solution.
I think this was touched on in the op, but its not about anyone feeling "guilty" about being white or placing blame on any one group of people necessarily. The reality is it was Europeans who started the slave trading of Africans and it was whites who enacted the Jim Crow laws, the drug war policies, and for profit prisons. No one is saying that every white person is responsible for what happened several hundred years ago, but you do have the power to something about it today. For example, you could fight against the drug war policy of the government since it disproportionately biased against blacks and doesn't solve anything it was supposed to solve (unless it was just supposed throw more people in jail to feed the prison industrial complex). Also like many others have said, just being empathetic and not saying "I'M NOT RACIST! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO!!!" can help quite a bit.
MrPressStart
Member
As a white man... I have no guilt what so ever. Why should I feel guilty for something I had no control over? You can't change history , you can only learn from it. In time ... Our society will learn to accept each other as people and not by our skin color.
I know this sounds mean ... But it's the truth.
I know this sounds mean ... But it's the truth.
I don't really have any guilt, I don't really know the history of slavery in Sweden either so I can't be really sure about that.
It's pretty sad when clueless Europeans boast how "racism" isn't as common compared to USA, it's completely wrong. Just look at rising of extremist right-wing parties, it's pretty scary.
Romani(?) people gets fucked over in most European countries.
It's pretty sad when clueless Europeans boast how "racism" isn't as common compared to USA, it's completely wrong. Just look at rising of extremist right-wing parties, it's pretty scary.
Romani(?) people gets fucked over in most European countries.
That's fair enough, but I guess I see it from my own experience. In my local area, they get approved to beatify the city, but instead of fixing the delapaded houses or shitty roads, they build a new walmart or some apartment complexes out in the suburbs. It gets kind of infuriating honestly, its like that part of the city doesn't even exists to these people.
While not to this extreme, more and more I've started to think doing something about housing might be a great start. Why? Because over time it might help solve the empathy issue, the lack of which is one of the main roots of the whole problem.
Basically, if more white people and minorities live and work next to each other, they might begin to understand each other better. A common defense of white people is that they have one black friend. What if more white people simply had more black friends, or actually interacted with groups of black people on a regular basis? And generally, with greater understanding of a group of people comes greater empathy for them.
A while ago someone in OT remarked that they perceived empathy and understanding of LGBT people in America was moving along more quickly than race relations. A big reason that came up was because any person in any position of power can have a gay friend or relative, but white people in positions of power are much less likely to live and work near black people.
I personally have no idea what you would do about housing. And unfortunately part of the housing issue stems from lack of empathy. That's kind of a chicken-and-egg problem.. But if you could do it I think it might really help with one of the root causes of racism.
DiscoJer
Member
And yet it was also whites that largely ended slavery in the US via the Civil War, which cost hundreds of thousands of lives.
My great-grandfather did two tours for the union in the Civil War.
And no country did more than Britain to stamp out slavery. They had their naval fleet stop and board slave ships, freeing the slaves.
In contrast, look at the number of countries that didn't ban slavery until the 20th century. None of them are Western countries - either African, Middle Eastern, or Asian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline#1900.E2.80.93present
Well, your ancestors raided and enslaved my Irish ancestors for hundreds of years. And then your ancestors, the Normans (Vikings who settled in France), invaded all of England and turned the native population into serfs, which is a form of slavery.
Have you actually looked at current segragation? It's pretty huge. It's not about people wanting to live in more diverse places. Many people CAN'T choose to live in more diverse places (who would 'choose' to live in a non-diverse, neighborhood hounded by police?)
Ignoring the comparison between race relations and LBGT relations velocities(because I'm black and not gay, I wouldn't trust myself to make a fair judgment either way), I pretty much agree with this. I think a major problem is the lack of exposure to minorities. I'm sure we've all seen stories of 'black person talks to a KKK member and the KKK member decides that black people are actually alright.'
Some cities are trying to manipulate zoning and development in order to mix rich and poor people. (I believe di Blasio ran with that as part of his platform. I forget what you call it though.)
The civil war wasn't fought to end slavery. It was to end the southern rebellion. The ending slavery was just a punishment for the South. Even if it wasn't, giving credit to them for ending slavery is somewhat like giving credit to a serial murder deciding to stop murdering people.
...Exactly. In contrast to Black people, their historic de jure oppression does not have a lasting impact.
And how does any of that dispute anything I wrote? Also, I've said a couple of times now in this thread that whites have to be a part of the solution to this in some way just like they were with ending of slavery and jim crow laws( the last part I never actually said, but was implied in statements I made).
Edit: Should also add the civil war wasn't about slavery necessarily. It was partly about slavery, but mostly about ending the south's rebellion against the north. The south tried to seceded from the union and the north declared war on them. It didn't really become about slavery until 1863 with the emancipation proclamation, which was more of a move to get the Europeans (most noticeably UK and France) to help the north. Seeing how almost nothing was done to guarantee the freedom of blacks until 100 years later proves this.
I have to disagree with you here. If the majority of people in 200 years identify as mixed race, there will be far less of the "us versus them" mentality. You're much more willing to empathize with a culture if your grandfather is one of them.
This is totally anecdotal, but the most outspoken anti-racist I knew in high school was a mixed race white girl. She was from a well-off family and had blonde hair, but because her mom was Black she had a connection to Black culture and a much deeper understanding of problems endured by the community than other white people had.
Aztechnology
Member
Socialism
No, I'm serious.
No, I'm serious.
I don't really disagree here. Affirmative action regardless as to how it makes people feel, is nothing more than a bandaid. but I'll take what I can get.
Doesn't sound mean to me, why should I feel bad at all.
I'm a white boy of Greek descent.
No it was basically about Slavery. Most of the issues that led to the Civil War were about Slavery. Also, the Jim Crow laws and such were most likely going to be destroyed by Lincoln if he was still alive. Lincoln could've avoided a lot of the issues that snowballed during that time period.
Also, this is an issue I feel that rich people should handle, not just white people. We have plenty of money that isn't getting to our poor, with education being the primary way to keep people down in their social bubble. There are so many poor schools out there, especially in Inner Cities, that need funding.
The South rebelled because they were afraid of slavery ending. The North didn't war with the South to end slavery, but to end the rebellion. The Emacipation Proclomation only ended slavery in the rebelling states AND was made years after the war started. Ending slavery was just not a wargoal until way after the war started.
This is rhetoric typically spouted by Confederate apologists. The south tried to secede because of slavery. And the south fired the first shot. They arrogantly believed the north wouldn't go to war over slaves. They were wrong.
It was still a war goal for many northerners at the time. The main reason to fight for the north was to push the south back in, but the slavery issue practically caused the war, and was the reason why the south was fighting to be independent. There's a reason the Emancipation Proclamation was made, Lincoln was against slavery, and wanted to end it. The war allowed that to happen without much southern meddling.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I can't help but be reminded of the episode of The Simpsons where Apu is trying to get citizenship.
I don't think anyone should have guilt for something someone else did. White people did plenty wrong in America over the years and not just to blacks. Think of what was done to native Americans many years ago or to Asians during the last world war.
The important thing is that we are aware of those mistakes by our ancestors and learn from them. That is all that needs to be done. I also feel that we have come a long way and things will only get better.
The one point you made that I agree with is education, both at home and schools. If you can teach kids young, maybe that will help. Unfortunately you can't fix everyone... just look at the anti-bullying movement and how ineffective it is at times.
Beyond that, I don't think anything should be done specifically for black people. I'm all for raising taxes and helping the poor, but those should be done without consideration of the color of ones skin. If you start taxing white people or giving money to only black people, that's a form of racism in itself.
The reason was to punish the rebelling states and gain international support.
You're right, the war helped accelerate the end of slavery. But that is merely a side effect. It's not like people wanted the war to happen to end slavery. They most likely would have preferred it to take longer, but more peacefully, which was dashed by the rebellion.
Do you have any evidence that the Northerners wanted to go to war with the South before talks of a Southern Rebellion?
And I'm not sure how you can say it was a wargoal for many Northerners at the time, given that for two years, there wasn't any promise of ending slavery. I don't think they really freed captured slaves either, during the time before it became explicit wargoal. Odd thing not to do if you were really fighting to end slavery.
But anyway, even if they did fight for slavery, it doesn't really matter. I'm not sure why you brought it up. Like, to give them credit for ending slavery to be brought up against the fact that people in that ethnic group were the main perpetrators. Nothing that can be said will take that away.
Are you talking about internment? Reparations in 1988 and an apology. Of course, that's like 40 years after the fact, but it's more than nothing... And I doubt few people believe we did right to the Native Americans....
The reason you can't do things based solely on economic status is because race is actually a factor in treatment. It's not solely economic status.
Well I was just referencing gentrification and how former residents can't afford to live in the area after it is fixed up.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
'Guilt' keeps getting brought up a lot, but I've never actually seen anyone asking for anyone to feel guilty. Mostly, what's asked for is empathy, recognition and progress.
If your ancestors were active in the British empire's costly sustained effort (in terms of both treasure and lives) to end slaving across the world should you feel free to ignore the issue altogether? I'm being facetious, of course. I'm sure you see why.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Not to sound condescending or anything but anyone who believes this has a very limited/warped understanding of United States history. The animosity leading up to the Civil War was very heavily based around slavery and the economic ramifications of either keeping it or getting rid of it. The South was benefiting a lot from the institution of slavery and the idea of doing away with it forced many to choose a side. Those states didn't want to give up their cash-cow (free labor), if you will.
Even if your ancestors fought to end slavery, you still benefited from the existence of slavery...
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
The South also wanted to move slavery west.
PdotMichael
Banned
Please, don't put me with American whites together. Even Europeans is forcing it.
There were many northerners who wanted to end slavery at any cost, just like how most Americans want pot to be legalized. Many did see the atrocities of slavery in the North, and a small amount in the south.
The Civil War was also caused by the South. The North didn't want to secede, the South did. The North went to war to keep the Union alive. And the South Seceded to keep Slavery alive and healthy.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Biggest two intertwined things to help fix are the for profit prisons along with the drug war. Ending these two things would go along way while also sort of being something that side steps things like say reparations that some may perceive as furthering the us vs them mentality.
EDIT: Actually, nevermind. This is all stupid and besides the point. I'm not even sure why this is even being talked about.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
No matter the color, there are many oppressed people living in the United States. A white person living under a bridge in a cardboard box is certainly not better off than a black woman whose a CEO making a 6 figure income. I think education and, unfortunately, time is going to make the most long term difference.
It's something impossible to be carried out given how long ago the slavery trade was at its peak, entire countries have been born and disappeared in that time span, it's not as simple as tracing back your ancestry (which is in itself not exactly easy). Not everyone benefited in the same degree from slavery either, white people were in a class system as well, slaves were luxuries, a slave could easily have the cost of a house. And what if you are not a descendant of slaves? what if your family moved from Africa way after the slave trade? and what about mixed raced people? it would be a nightmare of census, and prone to be exploited. The people who are suffering the consequences of those times the most are not guaranteed to receive the help they need.
On the other hand WWII happened merely 60 or so years ago between different countries, it's completely different. And even then, the unfortunately rise of neo nazism in Germany is linked to this guilt entire new generations have over something that happened before they were born, that is a fertile ground for people on the extreme right to rally supporters. Trying to do some kind of reparation program because of slavery could end up being completely counter productive, it could even exacerbate racism more.
Obviously this==Civil War. Couldn't have possible meant anything else.
I didn't want to launch this into a history lesson since that isn't what the topic is about and I feel like talking about this is not what should be being discussed. If you want to discuss it further, I suggest sending me a pm and we can discuss it there.
Edit: Again I didn't what to lay out everything I know about the Civil War because that's not what the topic is about. If anyone wants to discuss the Civil War, send me a pm and we can discuss it there.
My apologizes, misinterpreted what you wrote. Yeah totally agree with this.
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