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[Satchel]

But WHY are motion controls not the future? I don't understand. Between the precision of my gmaing mouse and fun in killzone 3 with PS3 move with nunchuck regular controllers really don't appeal to me that much. I just need them for genres they could work with a move like solution also or instead with a mixture of a mouse and a nunchuck accesoire. That's not "motion control" first and foremost, it's super precise control. Playing Killzone 3 with Move isn't motion control.

Motion is waggle and gesture, yeah, that should be a thing of a part. But really as Wii was announced none of us thought of "motion gaming", we thought of precise gaming, of 1:1 movements and precise aiming.

Because like 3D it's only good in bursts. Same way light gun games just kind of died off. It's the same principle.

Fact is, people get tired always standing, or always holding up a gun or what have you. It's why those games work sooooo well in arcades. Short bursts of casual fun.

Nintendo took advantage of this where Sega failed to with the Dreamcast.

Now they know it's time to go back.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy it. I even think Kinect has amazing potential for next gen, but controllers will always be around. Because they have to be.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

No, it makes it shallow because it is mechanically very very shallow. Yes, you can play it competitively. You can play a lot of things competitively and there are a lot of games where a good gamer would do better than a bad gamer, but that's just because talent always beats out non-talent. It doesn't actually mean the game is deep. I understand this is sacrilegious to the Smash Bros. sect, but it's why I cannot stand those games. Gimme Virtua Fighter, gimme Street Fighter, I don't want Smash. That's for a different type of gamer.

Not that different. Hitboxes are hitboxes. Pressure strings are pressure strings. Mix-ups are mix-ups. Start-up, active frames, recovery frames. Sacrificing damage for positioning and vice versa. Many of the same principles apply actually, so whether you think it's worth it is up to you, but the overall approach is rather similar.

Also you didn't mention KOF and should feel bad. :-|

 

[Thrakier]

Because like 3D it's only good in bursts. Same way light gun games just kind of died off. It's the same principle.

Fact is, people get tired always standing, or always holding up a gun or what have you. It's why those games work sooooo well in arcades. Short bursts of casual fun.

Nintendo took advantage of this where Sega failed to with the Dreamcast.

Now they know it's time to go back.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy it. I even think Kinect has amazing potential for next gen, but controllers will always be around. Because they have to be.

I think we are not talking about the same kind of motion controls. The motion controls I think of make every kind of a game a mor enjoyable experience through more precise controls and a dual hand layout.

Kinect is just a POS, sorry. That's not what I want. I want something like a super hightech move/wiimote which is supported by all games.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Not that different. Hitboxes are hitboxes. Pressure strings are pressure strings. Mix-ups are mix-ups. Start-up, active frames, recovery frames. Sacrificing damage for positioning and vice versa. Many of the same principles apply actually, so whether you think it's worth it is up to you, but the overall approach is rather similar.

Also you didn't mention KOF and should feel bad. :-|

You know someone is a hipster when they use Virtua Fighter and then put their noses high on other people who play fighting games but not that game.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

Oh come on , Nintendo have always been about profis and I hope you don't think Sony and Microsoft are charities for gaming quality?

Please, use your brain a little, I know you can.

You're thinking of 3rd Parties, and not Nintendo. 3rd parties lack of trying (outside a few examples) is really what drove the Wii out of people's minds.

3rd-parties did what Nintendo was doing, focusing on the casual crowd. I can't blame them if the system's flagship company chose a target audience and targeted them as well.

 

[Thrakier]

Well, now that it's out that there is no Wii controller packed in and the new controller tablet is at a pricepoint of 150$, it should be clear to everyone which is the ultimate main focus of the new cotroller, ah, sorry, console. If Sony and MS don't invest further in motion gaming (I'm sure they will, hopefully), it's a thing of the past.

 

[marc^o^]

As you just link to this thead I'm bumping it and respond to your post. How can you say motion controld are dead on Wii U, with so many games (easily half of launch lineup) using wiimotes, and with wiimote+ being the default Wii U extra controllers now sold by Nintendo?

 

[Thrakier]

As you just link to this thead I'm bumping it and respond to your post. How can you say motion controld are dead on Wii U, with so many games (easily half of launch lineup) using wiimotes, and with wiimote+ being the default Wii U extra controllers now sold by Nintendo?

Read the thread and you'll know. Every possible argument is mentioned in this thread. There really isn't much more to say about that.

 

[marc^o^]

I participated in this thread and I guess you missed opinions other than yours. I'm trying to be specific with my previous post, how would you respond to my question?

 

[Thrakier]

I participated in this thread and I guess you missed opinions other than yours. I'm trying to be specific with my previous post, how would you respond to my question?

With the same arguments I already used. An "extra controller" is just that - an extra controller. It's not the standard controller which the devs develop their games for. Motion gaming though is a entirely different concept and so that it works and really shines, it needs games specifically developed for it. Devs will develop their games with the gamepad in mind. So even if the Wiimote still works in some games, motion gaming, as a concept and a focus, is dead. It's like the kinect or ps move situation of this generation.

 

[jerd]

As you just link to this thead I'm bumping it and respond to your post. How can you say motion controld are dead on Wii U, with so many games (easily half of launch lineup) using wiimotes, and with wiimote+ being the default Wii U extra controllers now sold by Nintendo?

Also:

Motion aiming (in a third party game)

Motion+ sword play with gyro aiming

Wiimote and nunchuck as primary control method

Couple this with things like pointer aiming in BLOPS2 and the almost certain use of motion steering in most racing games, the idea that moion gaming is dead becomes a little silly.

 

[marc^o^]

So you'll just pretend games like Nintendo Land, Sports Connection, CoD or Just Dance 4 don't exist, because you believe the concept is dead?

 

[Thrakier]

I think it's a bit ironic that Nintendo fans suddenly consider a gyro build in a controller as qualitiy motion gaming which is on a level with what Wii tried to offer. I remember very well how Nintendo fans reacted to that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8By6KB4GQ0

 

[Thrakier]

So you'll just pretend games like Nintendo Land, Sports Connection, CoD or Just Dance 4 don't exist, because you believe the concept is dead?

No, I don't. But those games will be optimized for the gamepad not the wiimote. If you use the Wiimote instead, you'll probably loose out the "unique asynch gameplay experience" which you just bought at 150$ console and a 150$ controller for. You won't do that, you'll use the gamepad like 90% other gamers will. Because it's the standard input.

As I said already, these arguments are already mentioned in this thread. Please just read it again. We don't have to go through everything againn.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Why did this thread go up again?

 

[Alexios]

Yeah, calling people "fans" clearly validates your arguments regardless of substantial points made against them. With pics.

Why did this thread go up again?

Going by the last bump the OP linked to it himself. Then proceeded to tell the guy he lured that it's all over and done with.

Arbitrary goalposts (from amount to tech to quality to whatever) you move at will don't dictate the premise of the thread title.

 

[Thrakier]

Yeah, calling people "fans" clearly validates your arguments regardless of substantial points made against them. With pics.Going by the last bump the OP linked to it himself. Then proceeded to tell the guy he lured that it's all over and done with.

I don't even care if he is a fan. But we had that topic in this thread already. A build in sensor in a standard gamepad for me isn't proper motion gaming. I think most people will feel the same.

 

[jerd]

I think it's a bit ironic that Nintendo fans suddenly consider a gyro build in a controller as qualitiy motion gaming which is on a level with what Wii tried to offer. I remember very well how Nintendo fans reacted to that #Deflection:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8By6KB4GQ0

So you say Nintendo is no longer using motion controls, I show you that the system has multiple forms of motion controls which are being used pretty extensively, and you ignore 80% of the comment, pick out one form that I pointed out and use a youtube video (a site which any random idiot can and does comment on) of with some of said random idiots comments to support your claim? Well done.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Oh it's OP? nvm

He's been told in this thread but I guess covering ears is fine.

 

[stilgar]

I think it's a bit ironic that Nintendo fans suddenly consider a gyro build in a controller as qualitiy motion gaming which is on a level with what Wii tried to offer. I remember very well how Nintendo fans reacted to that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8By6KB4GQ0

It wasn't only "nintendo fans". It was painful to watch for everybody, especially people waiting for this game and the new controller.

 

[Thrakier]

So you say Nintendo is no longer using motion controls, I show you that the system has multiple forms of motion controls which are being used pretty extensively, and you ignore 80% of the comment, pick out one form that I pointed out and use a youtube video (a site which any random idiot can and does comment on) of with some of said random idiots comments to support your claim? Well done.

Slow down. I said, that Nintendo got rid of the concept of motion gaming (not just motion controls). I also stated several times that we'll have a certain timeframe where the Wiimote will still be supported (launch + maybe a year) and then it'll be completly killed off. Even if there are like, say, 10% games left which use the Wiimote in a meaningful way, it'll still be the same situation as Kinect/PS Move. Coming from a system which was 100% motion gaming and going to a system which is maybe 10 to 15% motion gaming as an "extra feature", in my book, that's pretty much shifting away the focus from motion gaming.

 

[DAREALGUMMY]

No, I don't. But those games will be optimized for the gamepad not the wiimote. If you use the Wiimote instead, you'll probably loose out the "unique asynch gameplay experience" which you just bought at 150$ console and a 150$ controller for. You won't do that, you'll use the gamepad like 90% other gamers will. Because it's the standard input.

As I said already, these arguments are already mentioned in this thread. Please just read it again. We don't have to go through everything againn.

The Wii had 3 different control setups. You're given a choice. Same thing with the Wii U.

 

[KojiKnight]

Well, now that it's out that there is no Wii controller packed in and the new controller tablet is at a pricepoint of 150$, it should be clear to everyone which is the ultimate main focus of the new cotroller, ah, sorry, console. If Sony and MS don't invest further in motion gaming (I'm sure they will, hopefully), it's a thing of the past.

Necomatic posts aside.... Sony isn't going to be pushing motion controls anymore... at least I've be very very surprised if they did. The hardcore have spoken and they don't want it, and it showed with their foray into it. Microsoft is going to try and to continue to get the people the Wii went after with their advanced kinect... but as others have mentioned, most of them have moved on. Most gamers (that is, people who regular spend their extra income on games instead of those who only very infrequently buy a game) aren't willing to wave their hands around for hours (see original Wiimote complaints back in 2005) and aren't going to be impressed with it either.

Motion controls just don't work. At least not with themselves... Start coupling it with some more advanced VR headsets like Valve is working on and it MIGHT start getting somewhere... but in the end, people are done playing make believe sword fighting.

 

[Thrakier]

The Wii had 3 different control setups. You're given a choice. Same thing with the Wii U.

Well, and what do you think how many people played with a gamecube controller compared to how many people used the Wiimote, for which the games were optimized and which was the standard device? Some of you guys must be into gaming since 2008 or so.

Necomatic posts aside.... Sony isn't going to be pushing motion controls anymore... at least I've be very very surprised if they did. The hardcore have spoken and they don't want it, and it showed with their foray into it. Microsoft is going to try and to continue to get the people the Wii went after with their advanced kinect... but as others have mentioned, most of them have moved on. Most gamers (that is, people who regular spend their extra income on games instead of those who only very infrequently buy a game) aren't willing to wave their hands around for hours (see original Wiimote complaints back in 2005) and aren't going to be impressed with it either.

Motion controls just don't work. At least not with themselves... Start coupling it with some more advanced VR headsets like Valve is working on and it MIGHT start getting somewhere... but in the end, people are done playing make believe sword fighting.

Hardcore gamers don't like waggle gaming, which is quite frankly what Nintendo delivered instead of their early promises (1:1 sword controls etc.) but I'm sure they would love precise motion controls.

I think hardcore games would go bonkers about an input device which combines the best of two hand gaming (nunchuck/wiimote), motion gaming, traditional gaming and with the precision of a mouse. I'd love it when sony or ms would develop such a device as the standard input for next generation. I'm hoping Sony does because I can't really see MS doing it.

Also the Wii was technically a mess so it wouldn't appeal to hardcore gamers for other reasons as well. Was just a complicated situation I guess.

 

[marc^o^]

Slow down. I said, that Nintendo got rid of the concept of motion gaming (not just motion controls). I also stated several times that we'll have a certain timeframe where the Wiimote will still be supported (launch + maybe a year) and then it'll be completly killed off. Even if there are like, say, 10% games left which use the Wiimote in a meaningful way, it'll still be the same situation as Kinect/PS Move. Coming from a system which was 100% motion gaming and going to a system which is maybe 10 to 15% motion gaming as an "extra feature", in my book, that's pretty much shifting away the focus from motion gaming.

You know, there are 200 millions wiimotes out there. Knowing Wii U is a multiplayer console at its core, Nintendo is pushing wiimote usage in ALL of their games so far, and 3rd parties follow the same trend, there could be 250-300 millions wiimotes by the time you predict its extinction. Would make even less sense to stop supporting it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

This is in an interesting use of the console.

 

[Thrakier]

You know, there are 200 millions wiimotes out there. Knowing Wii U is a multiplayer console at its core, Nintendo is pushing wiimote usage in ALL of their games so far, and 3rd parties follow the same trend, there could be 250-300 millions wiimotes by the time you predict its extinction. Would make even less sense to stop supporting it.

So developers will develop games which support asynch dual stream gaming with traditional controls as well as focused motion controls?

Nintendo is trying to transfer Wii players to the Wii U controls. It makes only sense to support the wiimote right now. I don't think that it matters a lot how many wiimotes are already out there, if there is a new great thing in town. Not including the Wiimote in the standard wiiU package really was a clear statement from Nintendo for the future of the Wiimote.

We can discuss for hours now. Just come back to this thread in two years from now. If the WiiU is a success, everyboy will be happily playing with the innovative gamepad and it's amazing new gameplay concepts and the four wiimotes, maybe used two or three times in COD and Nintendoland, will gather dust next to the Wii.

Also please don't forget that the Wiimote tech is quite old. This is also to be considered. We'll see better versions of motion gaming (mouse gaming, precise gaming) in the coming years. By 2015 a Wiimote will look quite old and less attractive to what's also on the market. Nintendo will put every cent from their marketing budget in advertising how great "tablet gaming" is or whatever they will call it then.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

 

[marc^o^]

So developers will develop games which support asynch dual stream gaming with traditional and focused motion controls?

Nintendo is trying to transfer Wii players to the Wii U controls. It makes only sense to support the wiimote right now. I don't think that it matters a lot how many wiimotes are already out there, if there is a new great thing in town. Not including the Wiimote in the standard wiiU package really was a clear statement from Nintendo for the future of the Wiimote.

We can discuss for hours now. Just come back to this thread in two years from now. If the WiiU is a success, everyboy will be happily playing with the innovative gamepad and it's amazing new gameplay concepts and the four wiimotes, maybe used two or three times in COD and Nintendoland, will gather dust next to the Wii.

Also please don't forget that the Wiimote tech is quite old. This is also to be considered. We'll see better versions of motion gaming (mouse gaming, precise gaming) in the coming years. By 2015 a Wiimote will look quite old and less attractive to what's also on the market. Nintendo will put every cent from their marketing budget in advertising how great "tablet gaming" is or whatever they will call it then.

It hasn't striked you yet, but Wii U is as much about wiimote as it is about the GamePad. Because most games will rely on wiimotes for asymmetric gameplay. Because wiimote was an universal versatile controller from day one, and got even better with Motion+. I think you are confused, because you want the technology to progress further than its current limitations. Still, it doesn't mean motion gaming is dead on Wii U, far from it.

 

[jerd]

Slow down. I said, that Nintendo got rid of the concept of motion gaming (not just motion controls). I also stated several times that we'll have a certain timeframe where the Wiimote will still be supported (launch + maybe a year) and then it'll be completly killed off. Even if there are like, say, 10% games left which use the Wiimote in a meaningful way, it'll still be the same situation as Kinect/PS Move. Coming from a system which was 100% motion gaming and going to a system which is maybe 10 to 15% motion gaming as an "extra feature", in my book, that's pretty much shifting away the focus from motion gaming.

Sorry, I read the OP and a portion of your comments but didn't see you say anything besides "Nintendo canceled the revolution". The Wii wasn't 100% motion gaming. Especially after the initial "shock" wore off. In fact, a lot of its best games didn't use motion controls beyond a shake for the equivalent of a button press. Mario galaxy 1 and 2, Xenoblade, Monster Hunter, Super Smash Bros, DKCR, NSMBWii, and Super Paper Mario were all pretty motion free iirc (Only played a couple on that list, didn't really own a Wii for very long this gen).

Personally, I don't really care if they drop motion controls as long as they keep the option of IR aiming because of the massive potential it showed. I never really felt like shaking felt better than a button press (except for Mario Galaxy, for some reason doing the spin with the nunchuck was oddly satisfying). We'll see what they decide to do though.

 

[Agent X]

Slow down. I said, that Nintendo got rid of the concept of motion gaming (not just motion controls). I also stated several times that we'll have a certain timeframe where the Wiimote will still be supported (launch + maybe a year) and then it'll be completly killed off. Even if there are like, say, 10% games left which use the Wiimote in a meaningful way, it'll still be the same situation as Kinect/PS Move. Coming from a system which was 100% motion gaming and going to a system which is maybe 10 to 15% motion gaming as an "extra feature", in my book, that's pretty much shifting away the focus from motion gaming.

You have a good point, in that the focus is no longer on motion gaming. However, I don't think this means "motion gaming is dead".

I think what has happened is that the concept of the Wii Remote is no longer novel, and doesn't need to be emphasized in the same way. There are hundreds of millions of Wii Remotes in the wild. We now have six years of history where we can see which games and genres benefit greatly from Wii Remote controls, and which ones do not. The Wii Remote is now an "accepted" input method, just like the joystick and joypad and keyboard and mouse are all accepted. Each of these has notable benefits over the others, but none is truly ideal for every single type of game out there. In the same way, there is no need to force every game to utilize the Wii Remote. As long as there's at least a good chunk of Wii U games that can make use of it, there's not a problem.

Also, as others have pointed out, the Wii U GamePad can be used for certain types of motion gaming. It's obviously not the identical concept of "motion gaming" as we saw promoted with the introduction of the original Wii in 2006. It's simply another variety of motion gaming, much like EyeToy and Move and Kinect. Tilting and shaking your mobile phone or PS3 Sixaxis controller is another form of motion control.

There are many ways to integrate motion into games. There is no need to view the Wii Remote as the one and only true avenue of motion gaming.

 

[plagiarize]

One thing I feel strongly compelled to point out to Thrakier, since this dumb thread got bumped, is that gyro aiming using a device with a screen in it, is not that similar to gyro aiming with a controller that doesn't have a screen in it.

if you want to completely discredit every phone, 3DS and Vita game that uses gyro aiming well, you're going to have to come up with something better than 'SIXAXIS could do that!' because it obviously couldn't.

 

[Datschge]

Slow down. I said, that Nintendo got rid of the concept of motion gaming (not just motion controls). I also stated several times that we'll have a certain timeframe where the Wiimote will still be supported (launch + maybe a year) and then it'll be completly killed off. Even if there are like, say, 10% games left which use the Wiimote in a meaningful way, it'll still be the same situation as Kinect/PS Move. Coming from a system which was 100% motion gaming and going to a system which is maybe 10 to 15% motion gaming as an "extra feature", in my book, that's pretty much shifting away the focus from motion gaming.

The best part of the Wiimote is pointing which has nothing to do with motion. Wiimote pointing doesn't use gyros at all.

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Not that different. Hitboxes are hitboxes. Pressure strings are pressure strings. Mix-ups are mix-ups. Start-up, active frames, recovery frames. Sacrificing damage for positioning and vice versa. Many of the same principles apply actually, so whether you think it's worth it is up to you, but the overall approach is rather similar.

Also you didn't mention KOF and should feel bad. :-|

In my opinion very different, in a very complex deep game a real master can do things impossible to regular players and the game keeps evolving even years after its released.... that's what in my opinion makes a game competitive. Street fighter 3 is one of those games and it is beautiful to watch a match from two strong players... those games however are rare, granted!

 

[Thrakier]

Well, we'll see how it all turns out. We can revisit this thread and probably laugh about one thing or another. My opinion for this moment is just that I would be very very surprised if wii-like motion gaming plays a huge roll in the lifespan of the Wii U.

 

[BurritoBushido]

wat

 

[Crub]

I think the biggest failure of Wii was to not include Motion Plus day one. Once I realized Wii Sports' tennis couldn't even tell how hard I was hitting, I was immensely disappointed. Ambitious motion-based games for core gamers (Red Steel 2) only came much later and by then that demographic had already given up on motion games.

 

[onipex]

The best part of the Wiimote is pointing which has nothing to do with motion. Wiimote pointing doesn't use gyros at all.

There is IR pointing that WSR used and there is motion+ pointing that Skyward Sword used. The Wii U gamepad uses motion+ pointing.

 

[Datschge]

There is IR pointing that WSR used and there is motion+ pointing that Skyward Sword used. The Wii U gamepad uses motion+ pointing.

I know. But the IR pointing is both the most reliable pointing (no spatial calibration needed) and also the kind of pointing that e.g. PS3 Move can't reproduce. And with the Wii U gamepad (which has IR LEDs built-in) as a target there are also new applications for IR pointing (the golf photo posted before makes use of that).

Btw. WSR uses motion+ as well (think archery). IR pointing is basically the mouse pointer on the Wii menu and in most games.