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How is Dark Souls 1 not the worst Soulsborne game?
- Thread starter Velikost
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Crab Milk Mickey
Member
There's numerous complaints I could touch upon, but this:
No, "I want to have X or Y feature immediately!" is not a valid counter-argument to discuss its innate design, which seems to be the crux of most objections in that list anyways. With that kind of mentality, we may as well (absurdly) question why there's no mini-map to nullify the act of memorizing layouts yourself.
I'll never understand why this is supposed to be a legitimate flaw when the game is successfully built around the fact you don't have fast-travel methods; if there weren't elaborate shortcuts and wrap-arounds that assist you in not wasting much time at all to reach your intended destination, then there'd be ground to stand on. At least when looking back at (approximately) the first 60% of the game, anyways. Only past that point are you understandably given the ability to fast-travel since FROM omitted the interconnected approach from that point onwards, but even then it felt more like a satisfactory "oh shit!" reward to me as opposed to this big relief that I was no longer handicapped.
No, "I want to have X or Y feature immediately!" is not a valid counter-argument to discuss its innate design, which seems to be the crux of most objections in that list anyways. With that kind of mentality, we may as well (absurdly) question why there's no mini-map to nullify the act of memorizing layouts yourself.
They nailed the Estus Flask system in the first game in terms of risk-reward, but with both 2 and 3 they implemented superfluous additions. They either needlessly skewed the balance even more in your favour (such as allowing for near-unlimited regeneration through farming) or meant practically nothing (like the lowest tier crystals) in the grand scheme of it all depending on what you used, as well as removing limitations that made you think more about timing or preserving your heals.
Dragon's Dogma was plenty dark like that too, although fire spells alongside other tools (more than Dark Souls' in total) did help offset that stark lack of visibility.
The slow movement and heavy combat are things that I really miss in a FromSoft game.This what set Dark Souls apart from the crowd of twitchy anime combat.
The no warping is the best fucking thing about the game.A damn shame they never did it again.
The understated,dark art style is also very much missing from DS3 and BB.
Basically all the reasons you listed are why it is so missed.
Its a very unique game even within the FROM canon.They havent made a game like it before or since.
The no warping is the best fucking thing about the game.A damn shame they never did it again.
The understated,dark art style is also very much missing from DS3 and BB.
Basically all the reasons you listed are why it is so missed.
Its a very unique game even within the FROM canon.They havent made a game like it before or since.
mhayes86
Member
A lot of gameplay mechanics were improved upon with the later games, but I love Dark Souls 1 for its world layout, and its bosses. A warp system would have been nice, but the way the areas interconnect into one another is something I miss in the later games. Somehow finding yourself back in Firelink Shrine was incredibly satisfying.
Demon's Souls is great for its oppressive atmosphere, which has only been matched by Bloodborne.
Demon's Souls is great for its oppressive atmosphere, which has only been matched by Bloodborne.
OP you spelled best wrong.
No immediately granted fast travel was great, due in part to the excellent level design. Like Dragon's Dogma getting from A to B was initially a planned mission, eventually when you knew layout of the world and unlocked sometimes mindblowing shortcuts it got much faster. Eventually getting the ability to fast travel felt like a reward. The lack of fast travel works in conjunction with the thoughtfully placed bonfires and the estus system - making you initially choose quite carefully which bonfires to upgrade. The latter entries absolutely improved areas like online play, but in many other ways chipped away and lost things that made the original sublime.
No immediately granted fast travel was great, due in part to the excellent level design. Like Dragon's Dogma getting from A to B was initially a planned mission, eventually when you knew layout of the world and unlocked sometimes mindblowing shortcuts it got much faster. Eventually getting the ability to fast travel felt like a reward. The lack of fast travel works in conjunction with the thoughtfully placed bonfires and the estus system - making you initially choose quite carefully which bonfires to upgrade. The latter entries absolutely improved areas like online play, but in many other ways chipped away and lost things that made the original sublime.
letmetrythisname
Member
The level design and deeply interconnected world were incredible but the rest of the game was such a chore to play that I stopped caring about that by the time I got to Anor Londo. That said, it's not the worst in the series. It's still better than 2. Bloodborne was the only one I really liked, but I also thought Demon's Souls was okay.
Adam_Vania
Banned
pretty lame list of reasons why the game sucks, half of them are design choices that makes the game more immersive. no fast travel from the start? who cares? aren't you supposed to be exploring this world?
the other half reasons all have to do with the summoning system. from the looks of things i bet OP hasn't taken down O&S by himself, which would make his opinion null and void.
the other half reasons all have to do with the summoning system. from the looks of things i bet OP hasn't taken down O&S by himself, which would make his opinion null and void.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
I'm a pretty big fan of Matthew and that's because of his DS2 critique. Basically every one of his points in that video are completely valid.
I think getting the ability to warp between bonfires was one of those wow this is cool moments in the first game. Sadly it kind ruined the sequels to me, since they had to have that ability in them too. The games lost the crafted world with shortcuts to other areas since you can just warp... sure there is still shortcuts but the world is not built the same way.
I mean I still love all Souls games.
I mean I still love all Souls games.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
Stop trying to play it co-op and all judgy. You're supposed to adventure alone and summon help when needed from willing, fellow adventurers.
Don't let's play it while gabbing with a friend.
Don't let's play it while gabbing with a friend.
And designed around teleporting.
Being stuck in Blighttown with no teleport was something the series never managed to replicate, as a feeling of hopelessness.
Thoroughly interconnected world dates back to King's Field in '96 or so for From Software. KF2, released here as KF, is full of short cuts and clever connections, as is King's Field: The Ancient City. 1 and 3 not as much.
Yup. Framerate problems aside, Upper Blighttown is the best area in the series.
Jimnymebob
Member
To be fair, if they've only just fought Moonlight Butterfly, they're probably not at O&S yet.
I also don't believe that having help against those two, be it with a player or the NPC summon, nullifies any complaints someone has against the game.
Davey Cakes
Member
I didn't play Dark Souls until the end of last year and I went in with zero "Soulsborne" experience. Never played any From Software games. Never played anything quite like Souls in general, the closest thing being Zelda, maybe?
It was the X360 version with no online, thus no summoning. Did the entire game and most of a New Game+ entirely on my own.
Absolutely incredible. One of the most satisfying single player experiences I've ever had in gaming and I've been playing games since the early 90s. The world design is fantastic and the feeling of personal progression is pretty much unrivaled.
It was the X360 version with no online, thus no summoning. Did the entire game and most of a New Game+ entirely on my own.
Absolutely incredible. One of the most satisfying single player experiences I've ever had in gaming and I've been playing games since the early 90s. The world design is fantastic and the feeling of personal progression is pretty much unrivaled.
Of course, but you should try to not attack the people that like the game while you are going about criticizing the game.
Implying that people who like the game have no life is a pretty bad way to start a conversation...
Diprosalic
Banned
I liked DS1 a lot but i tend to agree that DS3 and especially Bloodborne made it look and play dated.
Trogdor1123
Member
I don't get the hate for DS 2, it's really fun. It's different, sure. But it's not bad at all. I think it's fun. I've beaten all the souls games and think 2 is great so far. Demon souls is the best though, lol.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Not in my opinion they aren't. Came across to me as basic fanboy nitpickery, thin attempts to rationalize why changes to the anticipated formula felt discomfiting to him.
Jimnymebob
Member
I had a few problems with Blighttown. The framerate obviously, but the fact that the only bonfire before the one in the middle of Blighttown was the one in the middle of the Depths was frustrating, as there's not really anything that could kill you on the way from there, so it always feels like a boring slog.
My other problem is that when I played it, I slipped off a piece of wood and basically slid down the sides until I landed in the poison pool, so it wasn't until NG+ that I got to explore the area properly. Also, considering I slipped down, figuring my way out of the area was made considerably more difficult for me, considering I couldn't retrace my steps and fall upwards.
I think the Gutter from 2 was the better dark/wooden/poison themed area in the series though, personally.
schwabdizzle
Banned
I think Bloodborne and DS3 are the two best Souls games.
hydrophilic attack
Member
WilsonX100
Member
it plays differently than bloodborne (especially, as they all day) and DS3.
however, i still find it to be the most enjoyable. the world is the best imo, theres no wonder they brought back some locations into dark souls 3.
the game takes patience. its slower than ds3 and bloodborne. the systems are different. there arent as many bonfires (thank god) and theres so many useful shortcuts that show just why the level design is so fucking perfect.
theres a constant sense of wonder in this game. the combat takes time, and effort to master and get used to if you're coming from the newer games. the soundtrack is fucking incredible, and the boss designs are some of the best in the "soulsborne" series.
anytime i beat a boss/area in dark souls i felt so accomplished, i felt good and wanted to keep going.
OP please go back and try it again. give it some patience, get through it, and itll be worth your time. yes some things have been improved upon in the newer games, but dark souls 1 is in no way bad, perhaps one of the best of last gen and maybe of all time.
however, i still find it to be the most enjoyable. the world is the best imo, theres no wonder they brought back some locations into dark souls 3.
the game takes patience. its slower than ds3 and bloodborne. the systems are different. there arent as many bonfires (thank god) and theres so many useful shortcuts that show just why the level design is so fucking perfect.
theres a constant sense of wonder in this game. the combat takes time, and effort to master and get used to if you're coming from the newer games. the soundtrack is fucking incredible, and the boss designs are some of the best in the "soulsborne" series.
anytime i beat a boss/area in dark souls i felt so accomplished, i felt good and wanted to keep going.
OP please go back and try it again. give it some patience, get through it, and itll be worth your time. yes some things have been improved upon in the newer games, but dark souls 1 is in no way bad, perhaps one of the best of last gen and maybe of all time.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I hate these threads. All the Souls games are great in their own ways. Most have improved stuff over the previous entries, though sometimes there's some steps backwards (yes, even Bloodborne). That's normal, it's always like that. They're all 9-10/10 games and GOTYs. <3
See this is why I hate these threads. You got the OP shitting on DS1, then you got some posters arbitrarily shitting on DS3 (and of course the usual DS2 hate and even some going "actually I hate Bloodborne, Dark Souls is better"), whyyyyy
Huh? Grand Archives is amazing and the shortcut placement is perfect.
See this is why I hate these threads. You got the OP shitting on DS1, then you got some posters arbitrarily shitting on DS3 (and of course the usual DS2 hate and even some going "actually I hate Bloodborne, Dark Souls is better"), whyyyyy
THANK YOU.gif
Shit yes. Sounds like it'd be perfect for you.
WilsonX100
Member
theres literally fucking bonfires RIGHT AFTER ANOTHER! like where you can literally see the previous bonfire if you turn around.
the thing i loved about DS1 is that you were REWARDED, not just handed shit. even with stuff like weapon upgrade materials in 3, they are so plentiful you never run out. i love ds3 but ds1 is still superior in most aspects
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
In Dark Souls 1 as well.
Bonfire whining is insufferable. All the games have more or less the same bonfire placement patterns, get over it.
What are you even talking about? You can buy titanite shards and large shards earlier in DS1 than you can in DS3. The difference is in chunks and slabs which are super rare in DS1 and more common in DS3, and that's a good thing, because farming for materials when you just want to experiment with a new weapon sucks ass.
DS3 improved the upgrade system over DS1 in every single way (DS2 improved it first, but DS3 refined it).
came to post this.
Dark Souls 2 is worse than Dark Souls 1 in almost every way except for PVP. It's also the worst of the Souls games made by FromSoft
Bloodborne > Demons = DS1 > DS3 > DS2
Agreed, though I can understand a gripe with being able to fast travel between any bonfire at any time after DS2. Personally I like that feature, but I know several people who believe it hinders the challenge.
Muffin1611
Banned
Funny that you mention that, since DS2 and DS3 had an improved smithing system over DS1. This "upgrade to a certain point and then change it with another material and start new" shit and the boss weapon smithing were pretty bad.
Build variety? Gameplay mechanics like a proper dual wielding system?
WilsonX100
Member
id say the smithing system was improved but i feel like i always have so many materials i dont know what to do with them .
Muffin1611
Banned
Priorities, I guess. I prefer a smithing system that gives you a little to much but is understandable. Also allows you to try out more different weapons, which I'm a big fan of.
The run from the bonfire in the depths to the gate at the start of Blighttown is pretty short, straight down the stairs and through the door. If you missed that shortcut I can imagine that being painful!
If you slipped down and didn't die, you either got super lucky or fell from close to the ground, I can see how that'd color your impression. I've beaten Dark Souls eight times and always have a blast thoroughly exploring it again.
The Gutter is so disappointing to me, but mainly because I really wanted to love it and I just don't. Valley of Defilement and Blighttown (and Nightmare Frontier for that matter) are my favorite areas in the series but it only rises to "pretty good" in my estimation. Wish it had more vertical layers.
Build variety is massively overstated in Dark Souls 2 in my opinion. Dark Souls 2 ran face first into the same problem the Armored Core games had; yeah, there's a ton of weapons but there's a ton of really similar weapons - most of which are straight up not viable because another better version of said similar weapon exists, resulting in there being a ton of redundant weapons that are only there just so you can say "but the game has a ton of weapons!". This is why I vastly preferred Bloodborne's weapons because every weapon was actually unique and viable. When you go through and ignore all of the redundant weaponry in Dark Souls 2, I don't think its build variety is any different than Demons or Dark Souls 1.
afternoon delight
Member
SliceSabre
Banned
Agreed OP. I could not enjoy 1 for the life of me the game just felt too clunky and many of the things in it too abuse for me.
Dark Souls 2 is my favorite of the series.
Dark Souls 2, damn that's when I understood why people like Dark Souls, it adjusted a lot of the issues I found with the first game, was easier to understand and the classes/skills/magic felt more understandable and easier to use. Going through SIn now since I only played OG DS2.
Dark Souls 3 was even better.
Bloodborne is a little different but I love it as well.
I just do not get the love people express over DS1 it easily gave me the worse experience of all the games.
Dark Souls 2 is my favorite of the series.
Dark Souls 2, damn that's when I understood why people like Dark Souls, it adjusted a lot of the issues I found with the first game, was easier to understand and the classes/skills/magic felt more understandable and easier to use. Going through SIn now since I only played OG DS2.
Dark Souls 3 was even better.
Bloodborne is a little different but I love it as well.
I just do not get the love people express over DS1 it easily gave me the worse experience of all the games.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
? The Gutter has way more verticality than Valley of Defilement... or even Nightmare Frontier for that matter.
That said, Nightmare Frontier is possibly the best Soulsborne area ever. Unpopular opinion but I maintain it. It just blew my mind the first time
because I didn't realize I was playing a Lovecraftian game until I got there and the game just went full on Lovecraftian dreamscape and WHOA
No, it's not overstated. Things you can do in DS2 that you can't do in the other games (for example):
- dual whip user
- hexer mage
- twinblade-using whirlwind of death
- crossbow specialist (even dual-crossbows, pew pew)
- any kind of dual wielder of different weapon types
- jack-of-all-trades build (mundane build)
- poison specialist (since poison is actually dangerous and useful)
things you can do in other games (not counting Bloodborne) but they'll kind of suck:
- slow tanky knight with greatshield
- miracle-using paladin (miracles are mediocre in all of DS1, and utter garbage until super-late-game in DS3)
The only build type that DS2 doesn't do well is a bleed specialist, it's much better in DS3 (though it's trash in Demon's/Dark 1 too).
Muffin1611
Banned
Nah, don't think so. There were many interchangeable ones, sure, but there are way more unique ones than in the previous title. Especially in the magic department, partly by introduction of hexes.
Bonfires being kind of plentifull was actually a good thing in Dark Souls 3 because it allowed them to make extremely difficult bosses without you having to backtrack a lot like the ones near the Twin Princes, Abyss Watchers and Nameless King.
At least I think that is the intention because the closest one near the Demon of Song (DSII) and Yhrom (DSIII) are kinda far away and you have to pass a bunch of messy enemies to fight the
easiest bosses in the series.
WilsonX100
Member
theres some that are well placed but i find theres just so many right near eachother too
If combat is your main source of enjoyment in the games definitely. If level design/world is more important Nioh's a bit lacking.
WilsonX100
Member
you have a point friend. i guess i get so used to sticking with 2 weapons which is my problem!
How an opinion works: You feel a certain way but others also feel something and it might be different. Both "feel" like they know something that is "true", but its still just a feeling.
Bonus: How Human history works:
Take everything above, then add in killing as a result + inventing things, often to better kill one another = PROGRESS!
Bonus: How Human history works:
Take everything above, then add in killing as a result + inventing things, often to better kill one another = PROGRESS!
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