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How is it that Zelda maintained its status while Final Fantasy couldnt?

Robb

Gold Member
FF games are generally very polished, but the idea that every Zelda game is amazing shows me you certainly haven't played every Zelda. It also wasn't nearly as popular pre BotW.
I’ve played all the mainline ones and they’re all pretty great, although I’m not a fan of the multiplayer ones.

Popularity isn’t really relevant though. The games are always very high quality with the vast majority of the mainline titles scoring 90+ on average.
 

Punished Miku

Human Rights Subscription Service
I’ve played all the mainline ones and they’re all pretty great, although I’m not a fan of the multiplayer ones.

Popularity isn’t really relevant though. The games are always very high quality with the vast majority of the mainline titles scoring 90+ on average.
If anything, it just shows how much Nintendo invested in keeping the series cutting edge despite not always being a 10 million+ seller.
 
I’ve played all the mainline ones and they’re all pretty great, although I’m not a fan of the multiplayer ones.

Popularity isn’t really relevant though. The games are always very high quality with the vast majority of the mainline titles scoring 90+ on average.
Sure, and so were the Majority of FF games, except 2 really. Yes they were the most recent mainline SP, but they were also far more ambitious than Zelda. Zelda has wonderful gameplay and a nice world, but it's story and lore is pretty shallow. Hell, Nintendo had to make a timeline that it doesn't even understand to keep it all straight.

Now, I want to be clear, I think Zelda holds more Nostalgia for most gamers, but before BotW, it just wasn't as popular as people seem to believe.

Overall, FF had lower lows, but much higher highs. Personally I think BotW, while good, is among the worst mainline Zeldas. The exploration is incredible, but no real dungeons, shrines that became monotonous. It had some great stuff, but imo, doesn't come near TP, ALttP, MM, or OoT, and none of those come close to FF 4, 6, or 9. Or really even 7 and 12 for me. I value story, and Zelda has little.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
For you personally I assume? Because I find it very difficult to argue any of FF highs have been greater than what Nintendo managed with OOT alone.
Sales or mindshare? Ff7 has them both and it released in the same timeframe.
 

Synless

Member
I don't care about MMO so 11 and 14 are off the list and I can't speak to their quality, but can say that the last thing I wanted from a story driven single player RPG was a MMO. 12, 13 and 15 are hot garbage. 12 is maybe just garbage, but 13 and 15 are definitely hot garbage.
This is your opinion. objectively though, your opinion is wrong by metric of critics and user scores alike. None of them fall into garbage territory.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
I was thinking more in being an industry defining game that’s still looked back on even today.
Even other Nintendo games had more industry defining features than OoT. The only thing OoT actually improved upon was the lock on strafing system. It wasn’t the first to do so but it did it so well. Kinda like Doom isn’t really the first FPS game. It just did it well enough to recognized as so.

I don’t think FF7 has gameplay defining features but it definitely made future games have more cutscenes and cgi. Something that was still ground breaking at the time until the rest of the platforms moved on to disk type storage media.
 

Robb

Gold Member
Even other Nintendo games had more industry defining features than OoT. The only thing OoT actually improved upon was the lock on strafing system. It wasn’t the first to do so but it did it so well. Kinda like Doom isn’t really the first FPS game. It just did it well enough to recognized as so.

I don’t think FF7 has gameplay defining features but it definitely made future games have more cutscenes and cgi. Something that was still ground breaking at the time until the rest of the platforms moved on to disk type storage media.
I guess we could argue about this all day. OOT is the highest rated game of all time on average, and to get to FF7’s score of 92 we have to go through BotW, SS, TP, WW and MM, which are all rated higher, before we get there.
 

Oberstein

Member
Zelda is less complicated.

Final Fantasy has always been a mess if characters to me, and they change so I don't get attached to any of them.

Zelda has simple, easy to understand characters, that often have parallels with real ones or myths from non-Japanese cultures. It's far more universal.
This is one of the most logical explanations with the iconic aspect of the Zelda universe, much more recognizable and endearing than a new carnivalesque fashion show of the FF series.

The fact that the plot is simpler also avoids the bullshit writing of Nomura & co.
 

Woopah

Member
There is a key difference. SS was not seen as a low point on release. It released to critical acclaim, but mostly or not, became popular to hate on later on- much like TP, while WW started hated and gained popularity a few years later.

Nintendo probably made a mistake in not waiting longer to rerelease SS.
That's a fair point. Was FFXV seen as a low point on release?
 

Madjaba

Member
The hyperboles in this thread are among the wildest ones I've ever seen in a thread.

FF games are polarising, they sure are because they try to change the formula each time. Sometimes it works sometimes not as much as wanted.

But people just saying things like "hot garbage" speaking of any main Final Fantasy title are out of their mind.
It can be disappointing sure (FFXV vanilla urgh it was rough...) but "hot garbage" really ? :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

Aldric

Member
Even other Nintendo games had more industry defining features than OoT.
That doesn't really mean anything. Even if some other Nintendo games had more of an impact on the industry than OoT which is far from being obvious OoT is still one of the most important games ever released to the point its influence is still cited to these days by various devs and producers, including people in charge of Final Fantasy ironically enough:

 

Madjaba

Member
That doesn't really mean anything. Even if some other Nintendo games had more of an impact on the industry than OoT which is far from being obvious OoT is still one of the most important games ever released to the point its influence is still cited to these days by various devs and producers, including people in charge of Final Fantasy ironically enough:


That's 100% PR Bullshit to try to cater to a specific audience.
Come on, we're talking about Tabata-san who built lies upon lies regarding the real state of FFXV :messenger_downcast_sweat:
 
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fallingdove

Member
I'm really struggling to comprehend wtf you are talking about. Sure Mario galaxy may have a couple points above Skyward, but it's a critically acclaimed game that is on rank 1 spot on many top 10 wii game lists. Are you seriously struggling to understand why Zelda has never suffered a blow to its reputation compared to a franchise that's been wallowing in the low 80s on metacritic? Not to mention ff 10 and 12 also got huge backlash from players despite being somewhat critically praised.
The only difference between Final Fantasy and Zelda is that Zelda fans are much more delusional.

Both series have had poor entries. I hated FF13 and FFXV had some major issues with its story and character development. On the other side, I couldn’t stand to finish Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword, and while I did power through BOTW, it was an absolute slog.
 

cireza

Member
FFXV had better dungeons than Breath of the Wild. Better open-world as well, and most probably combat too.

FF is as strong a series as it ever was, by the way.
 
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FFXII, FFXIII, AND FFXV all had rough development cycles. FFXVI is being developed by a very good team with very few bumps in their development timeline. You can tell by the trailers alone that the entire team is passionate about delivering an amazing action RPG. Passion that has been present with Zelda since day 1. Gaming enthusiasts (us) pick up on the passion devs have for their game. We all know FFXVI is going to be Final Fantasy's BotW and Elden Ring moment. We are all just excited to see WHY it's going to be a good game, not if.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
I guess we could argue about this all day. OOT is the highest rated game of all time on average, and to get to FF7’s score of 92 we have to go through BotW, SS, TP, WW and MM, which are all rated higher, before we get there.
No doubt about Zelda’s scores. I concede to that.
 

hyperbertha

Member
The only difference between Final Fantasy and Zelda is that Zelda fans are much more delusional.

Both series have had poor entries. I hated FF13 and FFXV had some major issues with its story and character development. On the other side, I couldn’t stand to finish Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword, and while I did power through BOTW, it was an absolute slog.
The three 'poor' Zelda entries you listed are all critically acclaimed. The only one with any community backlash was Skyward due to its motion controls. If we go by community backlash, ff 8, x, 12, 13,11 ,15, are all suspect. It's not difficult to understand why ff had a hard time maintaining its reputation.
 

Madjaba

Member
The three 'poor' Zelda entries you listed are all critically acclaimed. The only one with any community backlash was Skyward due to its motion controls. If we go by community backlash, ff 8, x, 12, 13,11 ,15, are all suspect. It's not difficult to understand why ff had a hard time maintaining its reputation.
Because the industry is way more lenient when it's about Nintendo games.

Nintendo ports any Wii U game to Switch > "Much of all the good points are still relevant to this day" >> 90+ score.

Ubisoft launch a new Assassin's Creed or Far Cry > "Lazy company has done it again, same formula, no innovations" >> 70 to 80 score at best.

Final Fantasy new main title is not turned based > "This is not what Final Fantasy is meant to be" >> 70 to 80 score.

Final Fantasy new main title is turned based > "Turn-based systems are archaic" >> 70 to 80 score.


And you can take the absolute opposite with the Nier series :

The game launch on 360 >> 65+ score
The game relaunch in a slightly modern update on Xbox One Series >> 90+ score

That's all there is to it, Nintendo is a brand which inspires great nostalgia, playing it safe most of the time by using what is working with their fanbase which is also composed of way more casual players (not an insult, just talking about players not playing as much games as others) than the other companies.

JRPGs is a genre that is polarising, some love it for the battle system, some for the story, some for the game systems and even in specialised outlets and websites you'll never see the 2 same opinions... even on Zelda games.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
The three 'poor' Zelda entries you listed are all critically acclaimed. The only one with any community backlash was Skyward due to its motion controls. If we go by community backlash, ff 8, x, 12, 13,11 ,15, are all suspect. It's not difficult to understand why ff had a hard time maintaining its reputation.

Those FF games were also critically acclaimed
 

Nautilus

Banned
Ya, completely disagree. Vaan and Penelo aren't the greatest characters, but they are better than those in 10, and so is their story and world.
I get you hate XII, but the fanbase in general doesn't agree.
Captain America Lol GIF by mtv
 

Alebrije

Member
I think ZELDA games have the same gameplay since the Nes era, it has evolved but have the same roots. FF instead have been experimenting with different gameplays. Also Zelda is about a more coherent lore and story meanwhile FF is a different setup on most of games...

I have played all Zelda games since Nes but left FF after FF12 ..it seems 16 will play like Zelda line a true action RPG ..will check it after relase to see reviews about gameplay..
 
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Robb

Gold Member
I think ZELDA games have the same gameplay since the Nes era
Do you mean formula?

Gameplay-wise I’d argue Zelda changes things up almost every game. In one you’re playing as a wolf, in the next the entire game is built around motion controls, the one after that is mainly physics based etc. etc. Not to mention how they introduce new items that lead to various new gameplay mechanics each game.
 

fallingdove

Member
The three 'poor' Zelda entries you listed are all critically acclaimed. The only one with any community backlash was Skyward due to its motion controls. If we go by community backlash, ff 8, x, 12, 13,11 ,15, are all suspect. It's not difficult to understand why ff had a hard time maintaining its reputation.
Lol. Yeah, sure sure.
 

JCK75

Member
I loved early FF games.. but I honestly have not been able to bother with a single one released after VII.. I dunno know what it is about them but something just really turns me off about modern FF games. (OK I like I played 14 online and enjoyed it)
 

ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
Return to massive, but beautifully pre-rerendered worlds and turn-based strategic gameplay, please.

I feel like BOTW was a conscious and smart attempt to return to the origins of that Zelda feeling from its very first NES game, and they mostly accomplished it. But no one in FF world seems to be trying to recapture the spirit of the old gameplay in any form, they just keep diverging further.
 

A.Romero

Member
Some good points here.

I would also add that Nintendo has had a more stable leadership over the years while Square has had different people at the helm of different FF projects.
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
How has Final Fantasy sucked so hard while we've gotten gangbuster after gangbuster with Zelda?!

Back to back heavy hitter classics like Phantom Hourglass, Four Swords, Spirit Tracks, Skyward Sword and the Triforce Heroes. Quality releases each and every one. Cutting edge graphics, framerate, scenarios and gameplay that really honors Zelda 1 and plopping you in the middle of a foreign map and expecting you to go save the world. Certainly no jank periphery selling multiplayer affairs riding off the coat tails of a port of an actual good game, ear raped from start menu to end credits by a super compressed file of toon Link each time you make Link move half a fucking pixel.

But WAHHH FFXIII
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
I hate this type of threads because I like both Zelda and FF series, here both getting insulted.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Zelda feels generic, tried to like it but with no luck ,I don't see how it'll survive without changing anything forever.
They’re no game that have same feeling as Zelda, in fact most devs are trying to copy Zelda games. Calling them ”generic” makes zero sense to me.
 
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TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
I hate this type of threads because I like both Zelda and FF series, here both getting insulted.

I love both, myself. First game ever for me was OOT, second was FFVII.

But let's not try to act like one has been has been neatly threading needles while the other one is just taking massive runny shits all over a fourteen mile radius.

Both have some of the best experiences to be had in AAA gaming over the years, and both of them have titles that must have been greenlit in a room full of fluffy white meth smoke.

More to the point: asking why Zelda did X and why Final Fantasy can't keep up or vice versa is essentially like criticizing the water for not getting you drunk. Sure, they're both liquids, but if you're drinking water for a buzz, then clearly you're grading it's quality on an eschewed rubric.
 

SHA

Member
They’re no game that have same feeling as Zelda, in fact most devs are trying to copy Zelda games. Calling them ”generic” makes zero sense to me.
I'm not trying to make an excuse but I have 3 copies , hyrule warriors actually the one I had the most fun playing,
even though it doesn't count in the series.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

World’s Biggest Weeb
For better or worse, I think Final Fantasy has just taken way bigger risks than Zelda. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t.

- totally different settings, gameplay systems, visual styles, even different genres in every game

- starting with PSX they focused on cutting edge graphics and production values

- they even made a big budget Hollywood feature film

- 2 MMOs

- developed multiple proprietary game engines

- FF XIII initially planned as some 3-part FNC collection

- tons of spin-offs in almost every genre you can think of


Nintendo generally doesn’t take those kind of risks with a few exceptions.

Zelda is very much a Nintendo game. Nintendo is extremely conservative with their games. Each game in a franchise is generally an evolution of what came before, with one or two new gameplay elements that are usually very well polished and balanced.

That obviously works very well for them, but not every series can or should follow that pattern. Closest thing to that in the JRPG world is something like Dragon Quest.



I also think FF is way more nerdy and less “archetypal” than Zelda is (sorry not sure if that is the right word, not sure how to phrase it exactly). Like, Zelda games usually have a pretty minimal story that’s a lot more “fairy tale” than it is “fantasy/sci fi anime”. And it’s designed in such a way that every locale has some purpose, every item has some specific well defined usage, every dungeon has some novel puzzle(s), every enemy and boss has some correct strategy that you need to figure out, etc.

I think those things make it a lot more accessible to a general audience.

Whereas FF has tons of dialog, crazy and sometimes convoluted stories, lots of different gameplay mechanics (some of which are not balanced at all) that you can experiment with (or not), different ways where you can min/max and straight up break the game, lots of stats/equipment/skills/party members to experiment with as you see fit.

It’s kind of a miracle that Final Fantasy could ever get as big as it did. I remember leading up to FF VII, so many people talked about it that I’d never expect to be interested in a JRPG, I was like “huh, I thought Final Fantasy was something that only nerds like me would ever care about.”
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
It's quite simple:

Zelda still has Miyamoto.

Final Fantasy hasn't had Sakaguchi for over two decades.

This is true.

But it also assumes the IP's mission statement (trailing far behind the first goal of making money) is the same for both franchises. It's clearly not.

Even in the Golden Era most Square(soft, typically) fans refer to with the Gooch at the helm, the releases were still in an anthology format, with differing worlds, bestiaries, gameplay gimmicks, etc. Let's just look at the first three games in BOTH franchises:

Zelda 1. Classic beloved game. Launched a franchise, created the series blueprint, essentially, the norm that all experimentation and risks are based on.

Final Fantasy I. Classic, beloved game. Slightly more niche and jank than Zelda 1, but all the same, basic template for the series "normal," state. Has a legacy.

Final Fantasy and Zelda II. Both took the basic gameplay and turned it on It's head. Both are, to this day and dozens of titles later, considered black sheep of their respective franchises. This is the important part. This is the divergence. Both were critically panned, and both developers had to go back to the drawing board for the third entry. Zelda took route A, and harkened back to their success before, just in a reimagined, functionally and visually superior way. This is textbook Zelda, as you'll find it has the light reboot idea several years before it become inundated in the mainstream. Think on it. LTTP is essentially Zelda I given a narrative that isn't contained entirely in the manual. OOT is basically LTTP but it's 3D now! TP is basically OOT for the Dark edgy emo gen. They saw the poor reception to "a different take," on Zelda, and course corrected by sticking to one formula, over And over, only recently breaking out of that mold.

Final Fantasy, for it's parallel part, saw the reception to FFII, and threw out the entire battle system, character growth system, and created an entire Class changing system in their light hearted four heroes of legend sequel to the game where David Bowie destroys the world and you see people, enslaved and hopeless. Then FFIV rolls around and you have fixed parties and classes and a deeper narrative, and the point is...

Final Fantasy has chosen, again and again, route B, which is to see something didn't work, and decide, instead of going back to a previous idea that worked well, they'd just go in a completely different direction next time. It's a different but equally functional answer to the same problem. But it simultaneously illustrates that it's going to appeal to different types of gamers.

Some people want reliable. Some people prefer the anthology approach, because it means that should a dev team pick a direction that the individual player thinks sucks, then by and large, they can know that the franchise hasn't been set in stone for 20 years. I dunno.
 
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James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
Half of the ff games I listed are low 80s on metacritic. Ff14 took a long while to restore its reputation too. And most ff games got more fan backlash than most Zelda games. It's not hard.
Half of the ff games I listed are low 80s on metacritic. Ff14 took a long while to restore its reputation too. And most ff games got more fan backlash than most Zelda games. It's not hard.

80s is a good score. Zelda games that aren’t as good as the best tend to be more highly overrated. Less criticism. Probably half the Zelda games deserve 80s rather than what they actually received

I do think Zelda has more consistency than FF but not by much
 

twinspectre

Member
with the hype for ff16 and totk I've been thinking about this. as a pc first player I always got the sense that the two big console franchises that defined the market were final fantasy and Zelda. I remember in the 1990s hearing non stop about how amazing final fantasy 7 and ocarina of time were, and that continued into the ps2 era, where final fantasy 10 and twilight princess both saw an insane amount of hype.

but im thinking of today, and today, it doesnt feel like the two share that same level of prestige anymore. final fantasy is still obviously a big, major, and loved franchise, but it feels like it lost a lot of its stature from the ps1 days. meanwhile Zelda seems to be an even bigger deal now than it has ever been before.

its even weirder because Zelda is actually much rarer with game releases, but final fantasy has multiple major releases so you would think that final fantasy should be able to stay top of mind easier than something that shows up like once every eight years.

so how exactly did this happen?
Simple, Nintendo respect its IP such as The legend of Zelda, unlike Square Enix.
 
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