UncleSporky
Member
What parts did Maastricht get wrong? Does Vita actually have about 70% of the shader capability rather than 50%? Please give us details.
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How powerful is the PlayStation vita?
- Thread starter BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
- Start date
What parts did Maastricht get wrong? Does Vita actually have about 70% of the shader capability rather than 50%? Please give us details.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I guess taking specs or whatever numbers and equating them to real world throughput. In the end, the games can look quite good and barring some visual compromise, are very much current gen console quality. It's no a stretch to give Vita that much credit.
I can list 10 different stats or just take all the stats Maastricht used and it doesn't necessarily equate to Vita being 38.34% less powerful than PS3.
Indeed, developers must learn that it's still a mobile-grade GPU and those are still very far away from consoles (or even modern Intel IGPs) in terms of shader processing power.
However, pre-baking everything isn't always feasible. Most high-end iOS games actually have fewer unique levels than full-fledged games. Dead Trigger, for example, has very small levels which are padded by overall slow movement speed (most of the times zombies are coming at you, not the other way around). It also uses a mission-based structure which allows levels to be re-used.
Also, seems developers would rather drop the resolution and get the shaders working than having to re-work the art to work without them (for example, if you prebake lighting most of your level normal maps become useless).
I hate it so much i bought it
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I agree with this reasoning. Also, it's not the same content!
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Of course now. You just trim down the graphics and do something like Golden Abyss, which is a launch game and can only get better. This thread is kind of silly, what is "power"? comparing a handheld that gets five hours on a battery to a 100W desktop console is kind of silly. We know what the Vita can do, look at its top tier launch games and then extrapolate out a few years. Games will look great by today's standards, just not by next gen (not Wii U) standards. Same thing we saw with the PSP.
Canis lupus
Member
I hope there will be one next year, and a Vita tablet.
P4G doesn't look very good. It's close to native (854*480, roughly), but has no anti aliasing. I'm not sure how you could really consider it to have good IQ. Check out Virtue's Last Reward if you want perfect IQ.
SirIgbyCeaser
Banned
When I tried a vita I thought the buttons and analog sticks were to small, I hope the vita 2000 corrects that.
Ha ha, that does sound a bit Reggie, but in this case it was actually true.
The iOS game was just a circuit racer with the NFS logo slapped on it. EA has had a history of doing this with their portable NFS titles. This was always true on PSP and has definitely been the case on mobile platforms.
That would be so bad, but I always felt that the mobile games were severely compromised with very simple tracks and a poor handling model. I always had the impression that each installment was basically a retread of the previous game with improved visuals. The Run, Hot Pursuit, even SHIFT 2 were all basically the same game on iOS.
Same here, I see nothing there I haven't saw in a last gen console->PC port. Burnout Revenge seems to be pushing more on screen at 60fps, just at a lower resolution.
It's not that hard to understand that iPhone games don't try to have the same kind of gaming experiences as dedicated gaming devices, especially like the vita, that is trying to bring the console gaming experience to a handheld. If you tried to put majority of the vitas games on an iPhone it would explode.
Leona Lewis
Banned
If Sony had cheaped out and released a PSP 1.5, it would be in even worse shape than it is now. At least now it can get somewhat faithful console downports to fill in the library's gaps.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
yurinka
Member
I wasn't judging him as person, trying to make fun of him or whatever. Sorry if it has been interpreted in this way, it wasn't my intention to insult him or whatever. It's stupid to think this for just an avatar. I just disagreed what he posted there so I replied. My reply was really short because I understood that the reasons were pretty clear.
I thought he was talking about bad art assets and IQ, didn't know that he was referring to the resolution, I thought they were a separated thing. I strongly dissagreed, and thought that it was funny from a Mario fan (the only thing I interpreted from the avatar), a game that highlights for other values that aren't high-end visual tech. Just that.
Since I thought that maybe I was misinterpreted seeing what people replied me (I'm not an English native speaker) I tried to elaborate explaining better the reasons that I thought that in the first post wasn't needed because they were obvious, but you ignored them focusing on the dumb avatar stuff.
As a note of how important are avatars to me, notice that I have this one since around Killzone 2 launch when we joked using Killzoned avatars of popular games of these times so I choosed my favorite one back then, and I have been too lazy to use another since them because I don't give a fuck.
Let's forget this issue and let's go back to the topic of the thread.
Thank you for this breakdown, this is a really insightful post.If you guys really want to compare to PS3, there have been many comments about the differences. Very obviously, the Vita is less powerful than the PS3. But it's still really powerful.
Versus the PS3:
- you'll have to reduce shader use by about 50%
- CPU is certainly less than half of the Cell, but not as many games use Cell to the max
- MSAA is relatively cheap on the Vita vs PS3 (can be as little as 10% overhead, where PS3 is more like 25% for 2xMSAA, and 50% for 4xMSAA apparently)
- Vita has more main memory, but less graphics memory (512MB main, 128MB graphics), where you have to detract some memory of those 512MB for the OS, party chat and it's maximum of 5 concurrent 'small apps' that are allowed to run beside it. It seems though (from dev screenshots) that this is still leaves at least 400MB of main memory available for a game, and possibly more.
- both types of memory are most likely slower than PS3. I've seen a figure of 13GB, and it's not clear if this is VRAM, main RAM, or both but that VRAM is simply on a separate bus so that reading from both at once is faster than just reading from a shared pool (compare this to the iPad 3 that apparently has two busses to its single pool of memory to the GPU, to optimise that speed/throughput). PS3 is 22GB/s for both of its pools of memory.
- Polygons per (30fps) frame seems to be in the order of 200.000 according to Bend, at least for their engine. This can be up-to 1-3 million for PS3 games (where it should be noted that a really good game engine only needs to draw 1.2 polygons max for a 1280x720p image, or you'd have more polys than pixels, and that's per definition inefficient(some actual GPU programmers are sure to disagree though
- Vita native resolution is 960x544 (522240) vs PS3 (for most games) 1280x720 (921600). This means that the Vita needs about 60% of the throughput of the PS3 games. It would therefore need to be (all pros and cons combined) at least 60% as efficient as the PS3 to be able to do similar things at native resolution.
- Vita uses components and APIs that are similar to modern PCs (and PS3s). Shaders work similarly, texturing works similarly, etc.
There's more information like this out there. The upshot is clear: the Vita is weaker, and most likely in most cases at least 50% weaker (and many areas considerably more so, others less or better) than the PS3 or more. It is allowed to be at least 40% weaker. As a result, some sacrifices need to be made in order to run ports.
Not all games use the maximum power of the PS3 however, so they can be ported quite well (something like Rayman origins or Virtua Tennis are good examples, and something like Virtua Tennis can then benefit from the MSAA advantage that the Vita has vs the PS3 for instance.
By profiling the games that have been ported, you can get an impression on what aspects are harder on the Vita and what things are easier. it is never clear cut however. If you compare the PS3 and the PS2, then relatively the PS2 had far more framebuffer bandwidth thanks to its very efficient VRAM (EDRAM), to the point that the PS3 can barely keep up with it at PS2 like resolutions for (old school) framebuffer effects, and it simply can't do them at HD resolutions. So even some PS2 ports to Vita are going to run into similar issues.
But overall, the Vita is way beyond the previous gen consoles. Feature wise it's 'current gen', and powerwise its somewhere inbetween the PS2 and PS3, depending on what feature you look at, but on average I'd say closer to PS3 than PS2, and programming wise obviously waaay closer to the PS3.
AranhaHunter
Banned
IIRC it took them 3 years to refresh PSP to PSP2000 but they might have to expedite this one. Vita 2000 next year with 16GB flash memory sounds about right.
A tablet would need yearly refreshes where in 2-3 years some games would not be playable on your launch device. Are you ok with that? And a 7-9" tablet with attachable pad and a 4.3-5" smartphone would be great, but the Vita OS is not mature enough and the app store is pathetic and can't really support today's consumers need for a tablet/smatphone. The fact that sony is not pushing for non gaming apps to be released on vita suggests to me that they are NOT interested in a tablet/smartphone vita SKU.
Also, everything that was to make the vita OS more tablet/smartphone friendly is not being done. Just compare how far behind in terms of features the vita OS is compared to other mobile OS. The other stuff is far behind too, they have completely shut down the psp comic store, including redownloads after January 2013. They are not integrating their ebook store with the rest of SEN. They have a music/mp3 store that's exclusive to australia/new zealand, should have made that WW and integrated with the rest of SEN and music unlimited radio station. They released a manga store that's exclusive to Japan. The browser still needs improvements such as orientation and a/v support.
Basically a tablet/smartphone vita makes too much sense for sony to do it and they are not pushing anything right now in that direction.
UncleSporky
Member
Unless of course they could've launched at $150 or something. Nobody can predict how well it might've sold at that price point.
Hit the nail on the head. I read an article somewhere where a dev working on a vita game said that the PSP was a suped up PS1 and the vita is closer to a PS3 then a PS2. In my mind its like this.
PS1>>>>>PSP>>>>>PS2>>>>>>>>>PSV>>>>PS3
I like a lot of Wii games. Does it mean I can't be critical of IQ related aspects in games?
Oppo
Member
Maybe if so many people think you are unfairly bagging on the system, you should have a look at your posts, and consider how they come across. I don't have a problem with you at all, but at the same time I can't roll my eyes hard enough at "Uncharted looks horrible" or w/e you said. Need to be more verbose if you really want to be clear.
(I think GAF suffers quite a bit from the phenomenon where someone wants to add emphasis or strengthen a position, but they can't wave their arms around or speak loudly as one might in real life when posting on a message board, therefore we get all this "X is broken/unplayable/total disaster", "Y >>>>>>>> X >>>>>>> Z", that sort of hyperbole.)
I'll give you a counter-anecdote. When I bought the Vita, I was playing Wipeout on it when my wife walked in and asked about it. I explained that it was the new handheld Playstation. As I was handing it to her, she asked "ok so why would you buy this when you have an iPhone?" and then next second glanced at the screen, and immediately said: "....oh."
She got it right away. As fun as some iOS stuff is, if I had to pick, hilariously, I would pick Vita for library, even with the multitudes of iOS games out there. It's like the choice between a few solid square meals, and a giant pile of Cheez-n-Crackers snack packs. Technically one has way more food but who wants to eat snacks that all the time?
grimshawish
Banned
Rubbish.
They'd have been able to undercut Nintendo who has two screens and 3D to pay for.
They'd have multiplatform games in Japan (not MH that would still have gone to Nintendo) and quicker/cheaper development.
Some of Vita's best games underuse the systems power. So why is it there.
But it doesn't that's the problem! As far as I can tell there is more interest in original content than recycled hand me down ports.
Heck the reason PSP did as well as it did was certainly not because of shitty ports of console games.
Yeah, as far as I did try that's not even close to being true to even be funny (or Sony's marketing need to put in demo stations that don't have horribly long load times).
And looking at past and current performance, Vita even failed in enticing former PSP owners.
I really don't think power is the problem of Vita, I don't even know why it's even a concern AT ALL
^ This. Although it could very well be a directive from Sony to show off what the system can do, even if it means a hit to IQ and frame rate. Casuals don't care as much, but Sony isn't targeting them anyway, by their own admission. I'm sure if devs focused on art direction rather than glitzy effects, they could achieve fantastic results on the Vita. Whether or not the game would sell is another matter, though.
UncleSporky
Member
How viable is this? Would the existing library be able to differentiate between 16 gigs onboard and a separate card? I doubt it. The menus don't have that infrastructure in place, the choice to save to onboard or card. I think the best they can do is include a 16 gig card with the new model, something like that. Built in memory isn't happening though.
Leona Lewis
Banned
But games like Loco Roco bombed.
The system's highest sellers (MH, GTA, Tekken, Daxter, Midnight Club) are exactly like the hand-me-downs you're describing, and would not have been possible if not for Sony trying to cram a PS2 into a portable. There's a reason DS didn't get these games.
Vita's highest sellers (FIFA, Uncharted, AC3) are of a similar vein. They're just not as much a draw anymore since most people have smartphones that more than satisfy their mobile gaming needs, whereas all these people had back in 2005 was "Snake" on their Nokia bricks.
Canis lupus
Member
Thats just a matter of fw update.
Different people want different things. Shocking. Personally, I bought my Vita expecting lots of Ps3 ports.
Add the 3DS AND the DS into the tray. The highest selling games of these platforms are "console" type games.
MH is certainly different from its ps2 days and the concept is better designed for on the go play.
I'd argue that the others games are not anywhere near the that level of success (or gta maybe?).
Still the lack of original content from the west certainly explains why software wasn't selling on the PSP (and that's not piracy because DS was that much more easier to pirate and pervasive too)
Pokemon is console type game?
Are you sure? I reckon all the PSP's biggest sellers were 'console style' games.
I don't think I've ever seen the sentiment that handheld games must be bite-sized outside of message boards.
papersleeves
Member
I don't think anyone is denying MW on Vita is a much more complete game, replicating the exact same world and experience you have access to on consoles.
My point was simply that iOS games can be competent and not cheap rip-off. MW on iOS is a complete game with lots of content and it looks astonishing in action.
I also want to point out my position by saying that I have no doubt the iPad 4 is a much more powerful device than the Vita even for gaming and that it could easily run any game the Vita do with better assets.
Two important things it doesn't have though are decent controls and same quality devs. Those two things make the Vita the superior gaming device by default. This is the reason I own both a 3DS and a VITA. As much as I love my iPad, touch controls and the apparent lack of quality titles are its huge downside.
Define bite-sized because I'm not talking of solitaire or stuffs like that.
Heck Nintendo released only 1 game that wasn't bite sized on 3DS : OoT
Leona Lewis
Banned
Exactly.
This mythical consumer base clamoring for bite-sized, pick up and play experiences on their super-powered handhelds have already moved on to Words With Friends.
Not sure what Sony could have done differently other than just sell Vita as a phone. It would've gotten steamrolled even worse than it already is had Sony gone head-to-head against the 3DS specs and price-wise.
plus stacked ram giving much more memory bandwidth.
vita will almost certainly be surpassed technically pretty quickly, but then so did PCs with consoles and it didn't hurt consoles
chickdigger802
Banned
Not completely OT, but a gameloft game was just leaked probably iOS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=VwwF5jgt9Ms
Tf2 mixed with some battlefield heroes.
Sony's relationship with battlefield ain't too shabby, any chance of something for vita?
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=VwwF5jgt9Ms
Tf2 mixed with some battlefield heroes.
Sony's relationship with battlefield ain't too shabby, any chance of something for vita?
Complete absence of Gameloft for both, the 3DS and Vita after launch. I figure that they believe that focusing all their resources into more clones for mobile is more profitable than porting to Vita and 3DS.
Shai-Tan
Banned
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1678388&postcount=1655
Ipad 4 gpu isn't actually 2x faster (edit: than the sgx543mp4 in the iPad 3 which is slower than what is in the Vita). Assuming you see an SGX 554 mp4 in a future device that has a lower native resolution or just have iPad games that render at half native resolution, sure the potential is there to have better performance but keep in mind it would have to drive 1136 x 640 (hypothetical future iPhone) or 1024x768 (iPad, half res) which eats up what you can actually do with it in comparison considering some Vita games are going sub native.
So Pokemon is the only game the DS/3DS have? Seriously? The only game you can think of?
grimshawish
Banned
OmegaTreeFish
Banned
this thread is literally going in circles and...
What the hell did I just watch lol.
I cant tell if it looks good or not.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I haven't really seen anything on iOS that looks (not to mention animates, lol) better than Uncharted or more recently Sine Mora (native res, 60FPS), and I've played Lilly and Infinity Blade 2 on Iphone 5.
chickdigger802
Banned
Why would anyone -want- a Gameloft game on the 3DS or Vita? That'd be awful.
You'd rather have declassified?
Gameloft stuff at least has a campaign and 12 player mp.
grimshawish
Banned
Don't they turn games over pretty quickly?
They need to focus on one platform to make good profits I suppose. 3DS/Vita might be successful but could act as a distraction; plus its an entirely different market to produce and sell for.
Their business model doesn't really fit the platforms I'd say.
papersleeves
Member
Like the Vita, devs can choose to run their game at 1024x768 if they want to, as demonstrated by NOVA3 (on iPad 3, you have the option to run the game at full res or 1024x768 with much better assets, shaders and DoF).
At 1024x768, this isn't a case of the iPad winning most battles with some special situations where it would lose. This is a case where it obliterates the Vita performance wise on all situation, even with the resolution advantage.
As for iOS barrier, are we really talking about this? iOS has one of, if not the smallest memory footprint for portable device. iOS6 runs perfectly fine on a 128mb ram iPod touch 2nd or 3rd generation. On a device as powerful as the iPad 4 it clearly isn't a non issue.
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