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[Lovely Salsa]

I think there is life. What I always debate myself over is whether any of that life may be intelligent, in the human sense.


Think about the endless things that had to happen exactly right for us to be here. I mean, it's not just our planet being in the right place. Certain asteroids had to hit at exactly the right moment, be of exactly the right size to kill just the right life but not all of it to leave our ancestors still there. I mean, we're talking so many events that happened in just the right order so that we were the end result of some evolutionary process. Of course, they happened because we wouldn't be here talking about it if it didn't.

But as a thinking creature now, I look at those odds and think... "ok, life arising seems like a sure thing... but intelligent life?"

I think if it was in the universe, that might indeed be exceedingly rare. And we'd probably never find that, I'd agree.

But regular life? I dunno. I think it's possible. If we do live for thousands more years, and we start thinking in generational terms (because our planet will die one day), we will have to think up feasible generational technology where 'life ships' go out into space without the intention of necessarily coming back, and with the knowledge the trip might last thousands of years if not more. These people will find life, eventually. If we survive that long.

For that trip to last we'd need enough fuel, oxygen, water, food and create our own gravity in the spaceship. Everything sounds sci fi and extremly dangerous.

But my question is, would we be able to detect ourselves if we were 20k ly away? Finding animal kind of life sounds even more unlikely

 

[GaimeGuy]

If you guys think these stars are huge....


Take a look at this (Don't reply - old thread)

 

[Woorloog]

I have no doubt that life is out there, its just that we will never find it. Lets say the nearest ET is just 20k ly away from us. How the hell will we know about it?

In 20k years perhaps.
Whenever i see people complaining about SETI not having results, i want to /headdesk due to people not realizing it has run for about 50 years (quite a bit less actually), ie its signals have reached 50ly at most... and then there's equal signal return time if someone has actually intercept and understood them.

EDIT detecting exo-planets and if their atmospheric composition can be detected, then finding oxygen is a pretty big hint of life, because free oxygen is kind of hard to have without something replenishing it constantly.

 

[Camp Lo]

I don't get it, why wouldn't two stars that are so close to each other that they're touching merge with each other into one even larger star?

'close' looks like the distance between Jupiter and Saturn which is 100 million miles or so.

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

Having just found out exactly how far the Moon is from us, I don't think I have the mental prowess to comprehend how big those *big* stars are. It's just inconceivable to me, like imagining the night sky is one big star.

Try going the other way, can be even more incredible. Trying to actually figure out how big an atom is can blow your mind. Then go smaller and it just breaks your brain.

 

[Amir0x]

For that trip to last we'd need enough fuel, oxygen, water, food and create our own gravity in the spaceship. Everything sounds sci fi and extremly dangerous.

But my question is, would we be able to detect ourselves if we were 20k ly away? Finding animal kind of life sounds even more unlikely

A ship in question would bring its own sustainable ecosystem. It'd be huge, firstly, enough to contain an actual renewable habitat. The ship would be built with nanomachines which were constantly repairing any damage to the hull, as well as utilized in health care for the shipmates.

An entire new society would have to emerge within the ship. On such a ship, the amount of kids everybody could have would be strictly controlled. On the ship, kids from birth would understand their 'future' options were literally limited to the scope of the necessary jobs needed to continue the mission. So the real challenge would actually be trying to find a way to curtail the free flowing aspects of human nature, because if enough people decided to not participate after enough generations have passed, that would be a huge problem.

Such a ship would also need to have something of a mini-city on board. By that I mean it needs places for amusement, perhaps sex shops, places to relax - even vices. All things to keep everyone sane and working toward the common goal of a new place for life.

Also, we would not be able to detect ourselves from 20k light years away, but we would be able to always know where our ship should be, and therefore continue sending constant messages back and forth. Of course, due to the distance, the time lag would be so large that the messages were be merely formal, not actually instructive. I.e. "We have arrived at this sector" or "we have found life at X location", so that people on Earth could decide what to do with that information independently.

Because for all intents and purposes, individuals on the ship would be autonomous and within a few generations would have their own ideas of what they would want to do when they discover a life-sustaining planet.

But yes, the undertaking would be unlike anything we have ever done before. It would be dangerous. It would require a changing of human behavior, or at least a way to modify human behavior so that it could cope with what a journey would bring. But if we survive a few more hundred or thousand years, I think it's inevitable we will overcome the obstacles. It's a matter of time, not capability.

 

[Majine]

This.

This is the largest known monstrosity in the universe.

What about Supermassive black holes?

 

[Kevin]

Jesus my mind is blown...

 

[Camp Lo]

Try going the other way, can be even more incredible. Trying to actually figure out how big an atom is can blow your mind. Then go smaller and it just breaks your brain.

I do that the same thing I'm blowing O's for maximum effect

 

[legend166]

We're so irrelevant

it's actually depressing

It's weird how that's the general reaction to these type of discoveries.

Why does it make us irrelevant?

To me all these discoveries make us more relevant. As awe inspiring as these discoveries are (I can't even comprehend the size of these things), humanity is more awe inspiring to me. The capacity to think, feel, create, be aware of our own existence means more than a bunch of burning gas, no matter how big that may be.

 

[Amir0x]

The capacity to think, feel, create, be aware of our own existence means more than a bunch of burning gas, no matter how big that may be.

we, like, objectively don't though. without that 'bunch of burning gas', we would not be here. nor would basically anything else in the universe


sooooooooooo

i think it sort of has us trumped on the importance scale bro

Addendum: Not that it means we're irrelevant, but it is true it puts "us" into context.

 

[Camp Lo]

Er, misread what I quoted. Mer bad.

 

[Woorloog]

It's weird how that's the general reaction to these type of discoveries.

Why does it make us irrelevant?

To me all these discoveries make us more relevant. As awe inspiring as these discoveries are (I can't even comprehend the size of these things), humanity is more awe inspiring to me. The capacity to think, feel, create, be aware of our own existence means more than a bunch of burning gas, no matter how big that may be.

The discoveries can't be made without observers, and we're the only known observers. In other words, we're extremely relevant.
The star found is a dumb object, it just sits there without doing anything (ignoring stars' basic functions), unlike humankind.

 

[Amir0x]

The star found is a dumb object, it just sits there without doing anything (ignoring stars' basic functions), unlike humankind.

uh...huh

 

[bobbychalkers]

No sir it is not. Not by a long way.

Funny thing....that has been topped.

 

[akira28]

I'm unimpressed.

I wonder about the goldilocks zone though.

 

[Woorloog]

uh...huh

Well it just sits there radiating. We? We do stuff. Stuff that is actually relevant for us. The star? It just is there.
Not a fair comparison of course. For the star.

 

[legend166]

we, like, objectively don't though. without that 'bunch of burning gas', we would not be here. nor would basically anything else in the universe


sooooooooooo

i think it sort of has us trumped on the importance scale bro

Addendum: Not that it means we're irrelevant, but it is true it puts "us" into context.

But that bunch of burning gas wouldn't be there if it wasn't for another bunch of burning gas.

I dunno, just seems weird that the more we see of space and the more we discover that it's just immense amounts of nothingness with the occasional star and rock every now and again, the more people think "I'm so insignificant". I just don't get that view.

Why isn't intelligence more significant and relevant than, as Woorloog described it, a dumb object? Sure, a very, very, very large object, but it's still dumb!

 

[Camp Lo]

a group of quasars four billion light years across.

 

[Woorloog]

But that bunch of burning gas wouldn't be there if it wasn't for another bunch of burning gas.

I dunno, just seems weird that the more we see of space and the more we discover that it's just immense amounts of nothingness with the occasional star and rock every now and again, the more people think "I'm so insignificant". I just don't get that view.

Why isn't intelligence more significant and relevant than, as Woorloog described it, a dumb object? Sure, a very, very, very large object, but it's still dumb!

We're the only known intelligence in this universe, we sure are more relevant than any single star.
We should conquer them though. Might make them more relevant, having us around.

 

[-MB-]

Imagine Superman being powered by this Sun...

The hulk wouldn't stand a chance then

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I Love reading stuff like this, but goddamn it makes my mind hurt. I don't think we're capable of conceiving scales like this. It makes us all seem so incredibly insignificant. It's terrifying and wonderful.

One thing I always find quite dizzying is the concept that when you go outside at night and look up at the stars, the light that you see is at least four years old, and in most cases probably at least dozens of years old. That boggles my mind.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

I don't get it, why wouldn't two stars that are so close to each other that they're touching merge with each other into one even larger star?

It's in the process of doing just that. It probably captured that secondary start long ago because of its immense gravitational field and has been slowing the orbit down ever since. It's got to slow it down enough to break its orbit.

 

[Amir0x]

But that bunch of burning gas wouldn't be there if it wasn't for another bunch of burning gas.

I dunno, just seems weird that the more we see of space and the more we discover that it's just immense amounts of nothingness with the occasional star and rock every now and again, the more people think "I'm so insignificant". I just don't get that view.

Why isn't intelligence more significant and relevant than, as Woorloog described it, a dumb object? Sure, a very, very, very large object, but it's still dumb!

See though, this is exactly why scientists often muse that humans inflate their own self-importance. To us, intelligence is obviously very important. It colors our life in ways we cannot imagine being without. We cannot even comprehend the alternative.

But to the universe, it doesn't care at all. For the universe to exist and be healthy, it does not require intelligence. In fact, an argument can be made we have harmed the universe more than done it good

Well it just sits there radiating. We? We do stuff. Stuff that is actually relevant for us. The star? It just is there.
Not a fair comparison of course. For the star.

I mean, it doesn't just sit there. They're incredibly complex systems, constantly churning, creating the fundamental building blocks of the universe, including those needed for life.

Once the stars begin to go out, that means the universe is dying, and we are on a ticking clock til the end. Because once there are no more stars pumping the vital elements into the universe, there will be no more stuff to put into the universe.

And what happens once you take a system and remove the variable that is introducing new creation? That's right. entropy.

Stars are literally the thin line between a universe that is alive and a universe that is not alive.

If humans died, the universe would go: "LOLOLOL"

 

[thesuperfunk]

And it's still fucking cold in the UK.

 

[Betta Lines]

For everyone in here who loves this kinda stuff, I hope you all get the opportunity to experience 'Titans of Space' in VR. It is the greatest demonstration of scale I've ever seen, and a spectacular use of the Rift.

 

[VariantX]

God, the stuff we're going to get to see when they get the James Webb in the sky is going to blow our already blown minds.

 

[Woorloog]

I mean, it doesn't just sit there. They're incredibly complex systems, constantly churning, creating the fundamental building blocks of the universe, including those needed for life.

Once the stars begin to go out, that means the universe is dying, and we are on a ticking clock til the end. Because once there are no more stars pumping the vital elements into the universe, there will be no more stuff to put into the universe.

And what happens once you take a system and remove the variable that is introducing new creation? That's right. entropy.

Stars are literally the thin line between a universe that is alive and a universe that is not alive.

If humans died, the universe would go: "LOLOLOL"

Don't give a shit what the universe thinks. The stars ain't going anywhere suddenly. And i highly doubt the universe would care if they'd be gone suddenly either, it ain't conscious. We are the closest damn thing to a consciousness the universe has. (Yeah, sure, if the stars were gone suddenly, we'd go "oh shit" and then die out, thereby getting rid of the issue, even if the end wouldn't be very satisfactory for us)
Observers give value and relevance to things, nothing has intrinsic value.

EDIT and i highly doubt humanity, or its descendants would last anywhere near the heat death. It is so far away.

 

[jet1911]

If humans died, the universe would go: "LOLOLOL"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WomfhjyVM

 

[Lovely Salsa]

Amir0x, my question is more like. Will we ever be able to detect, from earth, ourselves 20k ly away from us. Meaning finding our twin earth 20k away. Lets say you are on earth A and I am on Earth B. Will you be able to find my planet? Will you know that life is there and that its intelligent? How will we communicate over the vast distance? Lets say you hit the jackpot and send me the signal at the precise direction. I am in awe 20k years later and send you a reply of "you have GAF there too?" Will you remember your initial message and where you sent it in space and wait for my reply from the same spot 40k years later? This is why I think we'll never find ET

I think the best we'll get is that planet X might have life in it after carefully observing it. Not knowing if its micro, animal like or intelligent

Edit: oh and i forgot to add that I need to hit the jackpot too for listening from your direction

 

[Liquidsnake]

What was the purpose of the big bang?

Why are we here. The universe started for a reason. There has to be a reason for everything.


How many other planets like our contain life? We can not be the only ones who met the right conditions.

 

[Woorloog]

How many other planets like our contain life? We can not be the only ones who met the right conditions.

This is very hard to calculate, especially if you include potential not-like-Earth-life life, which would throw all bets off.
Earth-like places are easier but still difficult, not every one necessarily develops life.

 

[DasDamen]

The star found is a dumb object, it just sits there without doing anything (ignoring stars' basic functions), unlike humankind.

On a large scale, you don't think that we essentially sit here doing nothing?

 

[Camp Lo]

What was the purpose of the big bang?

Why are we here. The universe started for a reason. There has to be a reason for everything.

I'm not so sure anymore.

 

[Woorloog]

On a large scale, you don't think that we essentially sit here doing nothing?

Large scale? We determine the goddamn large scale. We determine who does what and whether it is useful. We determine who matters. We are the only goddamn consciousness in this frigging universe, we sure matter more than a single damn dumb star, no matter how big it is. Without us, there wouldn't be anyone observing the star (aside from hypothetical other life, which is just that, hypothetical).

 

[Nerdkiller]

What was the purpose of the big bang?

Why are we here. The universe started for a reason. There has to be a reason for everything.


How many other planets like our contain life? We can not be the only ones who met the right conditions.

You're begging for an avatar quote, aren't ya?

When I see this, I have to deal with the fact that Cosmos doesn't air here until the 16th.

Also, am I the only one amused that there's a star out there named Betelgeuse?

 

[Liquidsnake]

I'm not so sure anymore.

It defies logic for there not to be a reason. A purpose. It frustrates me when I really think about it. But I hear you.

 

[DasDamen]

Large scale? We determine the goddamn large scale. We determine who does what and whether it is useful. We determine who matters. We are the only goddamn consciousness in this frigging universe, we sure matter more than a single damn dumb star, no matter how big it is. Without us, there wouldn't be anyone observing the star (aside from hypothetical other life, which is just that, hypothetical).

I had a feeling you were going to be sensational about this. BTW, we don't know that we're the only forms of consciousness in the universe (and I'm betting that we're not).

 

[Woorloog]

I had a feeling you were going to be sensational about this. BTW, we don't know that we're the only forms of consciousness in the universe (and I'm betting that we're not).

The fuck does it matter if we aren't or are? They are not here (unless there actually intelligent dogs or dolphins or whatever here, but we're the planet's top life, not them so the point's moot as far as i care).
If there are other consciousnesses, and we (well, more likely humanity's descendants, not homo sapiens sapiens, and we argue those descendants don't count as other consciousnesses) meet them... well, that's another thing. Or a problem. Either way, i'd value humanity (or its descendants) over the other beings.
I highly doubt we're the only intelligent life in this universe, simply due to its sheer size but what-ifs about what other life might think is not really relevant or useful in determining whether humanity is more relevant than a single damn star even if it is impressive in size.

EDIT this is going off topic now though. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Other than the Big Bang, is there then other theories for the creation of the universe ?

 

[RagnarokX]

Man, that is massive.

 

[Woorloog]

Other than the Big Bang, is there then other theories for the creation of the universe ?

A god created it and various variations.
There are some theories what the Big Bang actually was (like being a black hole in another universe).
Can't recall any other alternatives though.
EDIT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory

EDIT presumably there are a lot of fringe ideas but no credible theories. (God creating the universe is a bad scientific theory because it is hard to test in any way. No comment on whether a god actually caused the Big Bang)

 

[Chuck Norris]

We all know suns are huge

Now find the giant terrestrial planets with gigantic aliens that we would look like ants to

 

[Woorloog]

We all know suns are huge

Now find the giant terrestrial planets with gigantic aliens that we would look like ants to

Square-cube law will put end to those dreams.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

What was the purpose of the big bang?

Why are we here. The universe started for a reason. There has to be a reason for everything.


How many other planets like our contain life? We can not be the only ones who met the right conditions.

We are we in such shitty neighborhood? There's nothing here!

Our next greatest ambition is going on our cousin Mars to confirm: "Yep it's dead."

We're like redhead stepchild of the Universe.

 

[IceCold]

It defies logic for there not to be a reason. A purpose. It frustrates me when I really think about it. But I hear you.

Why does something need a purpose?

 

[Atlantis]

We all know suns are huge

Now find the giant terrestrial planets with gigantic aliens that we would look like ants to

Preferably ones that no can dunk, but good fundamentals.

 

[Raistlin]

Yes, we know there are bigger stars. That isn't the point.

 

[Camp Lo]

Preferably ones that no can dunk, but good fundamentals.

Venus?

 

[Xenex]

Also, we would not be able to detect ourselves from 20k light years away, but we would be able to always know where our ship should be, and therefore continue sending constant messages back and forth. Of course, due to the distance, the time lag would be so large that the messages were be merely formal, not actually instructive. I.e. "We have arrived at this sector" or "we have found life at X location", so that people on Earth could decide what to do with that information independently.

Hopefully by the time we are at this stage (if we don't kill ourselves first) we would have cracked quantum entanglement therefore sending data will be instantaneous no matter how far away you are.