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I don't understand "Gender is a social construct"

O-N-E

Member
Certainly I'm not well-read on this topic, but on face value, "he" and "she" just seems like a polite way to distinguish between two biological categories, which is useful. So you're not saying "that one with a penis over there".

For Trans people, I understand the want to be referred to as the opposite of their sex since that's what they'd like to be (despite reality). I mean, if they were able to wish their preferred sexual organs and hormones replace their birth ones, they would, right?

What I truly am baffled by are the Ze's Zir's....and Theys. I mean...they? Really? What are you, royalty? Why isn't she and he good enough?
 
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Ar¢tos

Member
Certainly I'm not well-read on this topic, but on face value, "he" and "she" just seems like a polite way to distinguish between two biological categories, which is useful. So you're not saying "that one with a penis over their".

For Trans people, I understand the want to be referred to as the opposite of their sex since that's what they'd like to be (despite reality). I mean, if they were able to wish their preferred sexual organs and hormones replace their birth ones, they would, right?

What I truly am baffled by are the Ze's Zir's....and Theys. I mean...they? Really? What are you, royalty? Why isn't he and him good enough?
Attention whores abusing the lack of grammatical gender in the English language to try to get even more attention.
 
What happens if I follow?

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D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
It basically comes from the idea that there is no absolute truth or objective reality in our world. There is only power and those with it define everything or construct "truth" in a way that helps them retain and gain more power, and oppress others. It's a really ugly way of viewing the world, but it's becoming quite popular it seems.
 
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cryptoadam

Banned
It really is amazing that the left took us so far down, so quickly, that a Kindergarten Cop quote is legally enforceable hate speech in many parts of the western world.

That kid should be locked up in jail and his life ruined. So transphobic. I can't believe they are allowed to walk this planet while spreading their hate.

And don't @ me that its just a fictional movie, its real to me damn it.
 
That kid should be locked up in jail and his life ruined. So transphobic. I can't believe they are allowed to walk this planet while spreading their hate.

And don't @ me that its just a fictional movie, its real to me damn it.
Yeah and fuck these girls too.


4fRSqYH.gif

Enforcing their gender and relationship role stereotypes. More like Kindergarten Cop Out.....amirite?


Pro tip, make sure you add Kindergarten Cop to the search when searching "Sex Machine Gif"

I've seen some shit today....
 

cryptoadam

Banned
Yeah and fuck these girls too.


4fRSqYH.gif

Enforcing their gender and relationship role stereotypes. More like Kindergarten Cop Out.....amirite?


Pro tip, make sure you add Kindergarten Cop to the search when searching "Sex Machine Gif"

I've seen some shit today....

Ivan Reitman was clearly a sexist transphobe with all the dog whistles he put in his movies. Can we cancel him already and burn his entire filmography.

Not to mention he made Ghostbusters, which was an all male cast! Thank god the reboot corrected his misogyny and gave us the true classic.

I do have to give him credit for Junior, a truely brave and inspiring film about a transgender scientist who proves the patriarchy wrong and that MEN can have babies from their heginas too. Destroy everything else but keep Junior so any of those aholes out there saying only women can have babies can see the truth that men can get pregnant too.
 

Iorv3th

Member
It's only a 'social construct' because they want you to believe it is. So that way they can claim they don't fit within the confines that our 'society' created and it's putting them down and hurting them. They have to fight against society to correct it. Then if you believe in that you are oppressing them.
 
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The reason you don't understand it is the definition of 'gender' people use for this argument is so nebulous that it has basically no meaning at this point. Add to that that 'social construct' is also rather nebulous and you got a recipe for a discussion that is completely useless as people have no idea what the other is really talking about.

As best as I am able to decipher this thinking it seems to come from a few ways of thinking:
1. That 'gender' is more akin to what is more commonly known as 'gender role'. Now gender roles are indeed pretty society dependent, although they are not completely so (which goes into the whole issue of what exactly is a 'social construct'). The problem here is gender role has never been a rigid structure with pretty strict boundaries like gender is generally considered to be, so interchanging the two concepts causes nothing but confusion.
2. That 'gender' is more akin to lifestyle, a vastly different concept than traditionally thought. Here is seems the wish to elevate their personal lifestyle to the level of gender is, well frankly grounded in a rather narcissistic need to seem more important and special. This, ironically, causes people to pigeonhole themselves more to seem more unique.

Then we have the more reasonable camp of:
3. That 'gender' is one's self image of their sex. This is the one most transgender people who actually go through procedures seem to go with and has the most scientific evidence. So essentially it allows gender and sex to be not aligned, but gender is still intimately linked to sex and in the vast majority of cases is aligned with sex.

And finally we have the die-hards in opposition where:
4. 'gender' is just an alternate word for 'sex'. There is nothing more too it.

As to what constitutes a 'social construct', in simple terms we think of this as 'is this a physical fact, or is this just something society arbitrarily decided on.' Problem is, that is a black and white fallacy. Honestly there is nothing that society hasn't got at least some play in, but there is also nothing that physical facts have at least some bearing in. So what constitutes a 'social construct' is itself a social construct.
The go to example for social construct is boys = blue, girls = pink, and yeah that's pretty much as social constructy as it gets, but even here there is biologically driven pressures to distinguish the sexes. It certainly didn't need to be blue and pink, didn't even need to be color, but it is very likely we'd always have had some distinguishing feature between children that we would have assigned. On the opposite end, you may say 1 + 1 = 2 is about as absolute as it gets, but even here we could have done the same equation as 1 1 + = 2, or + 1 1 = 2, or I + I = II, or numerous other representations. None of them change the core principle, but still it ends up that 1 + 1 = 2 can be seen as a social construct... which is also why the term is mostly useless as it doesn't really tell us anything of worth.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
Sex is biological, man, woman, intersex, hermaphrodite.

Gender is I guess the social norms you take on based on your sex. Part of that is surely socially constructed, and can vary across cultures. But for like 99% of people the two line up and it's not even worth acknowledging the distinction. And most new research actually shows that many of the things people theorized were socially constructed, are also likely biological as well - such as female interest in interpersonal communication tasks, and male interest in tech, things, engineering - even shown in infants at a young age.

Almost all gender discussion today is absolutely pseudo science cult nonsense.
 

Liljagare

Member
It's not.

It's atm something we are allowed to figure out and think about, but the next time the shit hits the fan, all of that will go out the door, sadly.
 
My sociology class argued the same. While I agree there are gender roles in society I think it’s ridiculous to assume someone’s gender based on society at the end of the day you can’t change biology
 

Gargus

Banned
Certainly I'm not well-read on this topic, but on face value, "he" and "she" just seems like a polite way to distinguish between two biological categories, which is useful. So you're not saying "that one with a penis over their".

For Trans people, I understand the want to be referred to as the opposite of their sex since that's what they'd like to be (despite reality). I mean, if they were able to wish their preferred sexual organs and hormones replace their birth ones, they would, right?

What I truly am baffled by are the Ze's Zir's....and Theys. I mean...they? Really? What are you, royalty? Why isn't she and he good enough?


He and she, him and her, man and woman. They are just descriptors and nothing more. No different than using dog and cat to describe something.

And no, I won't call a trans what they want me to call them. Why is it my responsibility to satisfy their self image? You can pull the stem off an apple and paint it orange but it won't be an orange. There aren't enough hormones or surgeries in the world to change the gender you had before you even slid out of your mother. You cant change your genetics and change what you are. I'm not going to go through trying to make sure I refer to everyone to they sex they want to be because I dont care. If you're a man you're a man. You can think and present yourself however you want, and that's cool but I'm not going to put any effort into helping you play out your fantasy game. I mean I understand it also, I'm just not going to participate.
 

Davey Cakes

Member
My sociology class argued the same. While I agree there are gender roles in society I think it’s ridiculous to assume someone’s gender based on society at the end of the day you can’t change biology
I think it’s just about the terminology itself.

Sex is biology.
Gender is identity.

Maybe it’s not THAT simple but I don’t think those terms were meant to be conflated.
 

lock2k

Banned
I see it like this:

I respect you if you're a he. I respect you if you're a she. I respect you if you are trans (legit ones, not posers).

I don't respect you if you are "genderfluid". The only time I will use "they" is to refer to my wife's boobs or my balls. Gender fluid people are reetarded.
 

crowbrow

Banned
In human biology there are two sexes: male and female. Sometimes they get mixed as with intersex people.

In human societies we have gender roles that can be linked to sexual characteristics. For example, males are usually stronger than females so it makes sense that males take more often social roles that require physical strength instead of women. Now many of those roles have some relation to sexual characteristics but some are merely cultural or that make sense in some cultural settings and not in others. For example, the role of women belonging in the kitchen developed because men used to be the ones going out to work while women stayed home so it made cultural sense at one point but now that women also go out working that gender role changed with the culture. As societies get more complex and cultures mix, the gender roles become less static and more "fluid" or dependent on context.

As for the pronouns. That's complete superficial nonsense of people thinking they can micromanage how others use language to draw attention to themselves and feel special and be regarded as heroes for doing basically nothing. Language changes, yes, but it barely ever responds to this artificial made up nonsense.
 

GreyHorace

Member
If a person wants to call themselves a man or a woman or whatever new gender identity they've come up with, then fine. It's their fucking life and I've no say in how they live it.

It's when they assert their so-called rights and privileges is when I have a problem. From harassing people for misgendering them to trying to find a place in sports despite the protests (especially from women). I don't want to generalize and say all trans people are like this, but the extreme ones are real nutters and should be ignored.
 

petran79

Banned
Sex is biological, man, woman, intersex, hermaphrodite.

Gender is I guess the social norms you take on based on your sex. Part of that is surely socially constructed, and can vary across cultures. But for like 99% of people the two line up and it's not even worth acknowledging the distinction. And most new research actually shows that many of the things people theorized were socially constructed, are also likely biological as well - such as female interest in interpersonal communication tasks, and male interest in tech, things, engineering - even shown in infants at a young age.

Almost all gender discussion today is absolutely pseudo science cult nonsense.

Society also influenced racist and societal views on scientists. Eg Down Syndrome was initially called "Mongolism" by the physician Langdon Down, because he thought that this condition was a reversion to the inferior Oriental race as opposed to the superior Caucasian race. Despite being racist, that term is still being used today in layman language due to misinformation or racism.

Science and religion were even used to justify slavery or the submission of women.

But I agree the best thing would be a mixture of both. Scientists should be informed about social issues because no science is exempt from society.
Social scientists should also be well versed in the sociological and historical aspects of science before making claims.

Definitions change all the time, even the term "traditional family"
 

Papa

Banned
Sex is biological, man, woman, intersex, hermaphrodite.

Gender is I guess the social norms you take on based on your sex. Part of that is surely socially constructed, and can vary across cultures. But for like 99% of people the two line up and it's not even worth acknowledging the distinction. And most new research actually shows that many of the things people theorized were socially constructed, are also likely biological as well - such as female interest in interpersonal communication tasks, and male interest in tech, things, engineering - even shown in infants at a young age.

Almost all gender discussion today is absolutely pseudo science cult nonsense.

No, that’s gender role. Gender and sex are synonymous and always were until John Money started playing god.
 

crowbrow

Banned
No, that’s gender role. Gender and sex are synonymous and always were until John Money started playing god.
On the contrary, gender is basically the same than gender roles. Sex is merely the biological characteristics while gender involves roles, norms and other aspects that come from cultural influences.

Definition from the WHO:

""Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men, such as norms, roles, and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed.""
 

Papa

Banned
On the contrary, gender is basically the same than gender roles. Sex is merely the biological characteristics while gender involves roles, norms and other aspects that come from cultural influences.

Definition from the WHO:

""Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men, such as norms, roles, and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed.""

Fuck the WHO. They changed that shit last year. 2 + 2 does not in fact equal 5 even if the Ministry of Truth says so.
 

crowbrow

Banned
Fuck the WHO. They changed that shit last year. 2 + 2 does not in fact equal 5 even if the Ministry of Truth says so.
So how do you propose we name the cultural differences between men and women? In the end, what difference does it make if you call them gender roles or gender? Making gender mean exactly the same as sex is confusing, why have two words for the exact same thing and then have gender roles for the cultural part (also gender roles is too specific and leaves out norms and relationships which the word gender in general covers)? specially when gender had never in the history of the term meant the same as sex. Even before Money, gender was used for grammatical pronouns --feminine, masculine, neutral-- but not for biological differences, the definition that says that gender means the same as sex is actually the new one.
 
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Papa

Banned
So how do you propose we name the cultural differences between men and women? In the end, what difference does it make if you call them gender roles or gender? Making gender mean exactly the same as sex is confusing, why have two words for the exact same thing and then have gender roles for the cultural part? specially when gender had never in the history of the term meant the same as sex. Even before Money, gender was used for grammatical pronouns --feminine, masculine, neutral-- but not for biological differences, the definition that says that gender means the same as sex is actually the new one.

Because the words sex and gender have different etymology. Gender comes from French and was incorporated into English as have many other words as cultures have integrated. Gender and gender role mean different things. Gender and sex do not. Gender role refers to the societal role associated with the gender. Gender refers to the gender itself, i.e. sex.
 
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