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I had a rare encounter with a racist today.

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jacksnap said:
lttp but I totally agree, it makes little sense to blame Europe for the racist undertones of the word in America. That is why I'm not blaming Europe for anything.

It's just how the word came about, and one of the reasons why someone can take offense to it - it doesn't particularly mean anything specific about actual geographic location, it was just a handy go-to for Europeans/Westerners to describe "those other guys who aren't from Europe and never will be".

Is it Europe's fault that the word is seen as offensive in America given the historical struggle of Asian Americans to be seen as not foreigners?

Hell no. But just because the connotations in Europe don't go that far doesn't mean in America the same should apply, given its history.
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I totally see what you mean, and no, you didn't blame Europe for the undertones. But we were blamed in this very thread, and I believe that's stupid. One has to consider his own mistakes before blaming anybody else. Being German, I've learned that a very young age.

Either way, I believe the term itself isn't racist. It's nothing like "nigger" or "chink" or shit. It's just short for "sol oriens", which means "rising sun". It's not any more racist than the term "Middle East". I absolutely do get why people wouldn't want to be called "oriental", especially in the US, considering the US history with East and South-East Asia (regions Europeans don't even consider "oriental"), but I don't think people using the term are necessarily racist - and I believe one should be very careful before calling somebody "racist". Because "racist", "misogynist" and "homophobe" are coats of paint used to discredit and shut up people, stifling any potentially worthwhile discussion.
 
i-Lo said:
Anyway, I guess it's the same way I feel when caucasians refer to non-caucasians as "people of colour". It's such an "us" and "the rest of them" description.
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I've only heard that term coming from POC, otherwise they're too afraid to say it. Must be another American/UK difference.
 
Zoe said:
I've only heard that term coming from POC, otherwise they're too afraid to say it. Must be another American/UK difference.
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I have heard it quite a few times on channels like Fox news (hosts and guests). It still boggles my mind how caucasians escape the inclusion within that term since they are referred to as "white", which last time I checked (much like 'black') is also name of a colour.
 
i-Lo said:
I have heard it quite a few times on channels like Fox news (hosts and guests). It still boggles my mind how caucasians escape the inclusion within that term since they are referred to as "white", which last time I checked (much like 'black') is also name of a colour.
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We used to be called colored, they didn't seem too concerned about inclusion then
 
i-Lo said:
I didn't know that 'oriental' was an offensive term for quite a long while. Good thing I learned before I made a fool of myself.

Anyway, I guess it's the same way I feel when caucasians refer to non-caucasians as "people of colour". It's such an "us" and "the rest of them" description.
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I like when whitey calls black people African-American. I remember people on Fox kept doing it when talking about 12 Years A Slave was kicking around. Steve McQueen is not African-American because he's not American, you clowns. Just say "black". It's ok.

Also race still isn't real.
 
Brakke said:
I like when whitey calls black people African-American. I remember people on Fox kept doing it when talking about 12 Years A Slave was kicking around. Steve McQueen is not African-American because he's not American, you clowns. Just say "black". It's ok.

Also race still isn't real.
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Argument is there for that African-American refers to Race and not country/countries of heritage/origin. I personally don't use African-American as I agree with you.
 
i-Lo said:
I didn't know that 'oriental' was an offensive term for quite a long while. Good thing I learned before I made a fool of myself.

Anyway, I guess it's the same way I feel when caucasians refer to non-caucasians as "people of colour". It's such an "us" and "the rest of them" description.
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Except white people aren't even caucasian. "Caucasian" refers to people from the Caucasus region, and the vast majority of white people is not from that region. Also, the vast majority or white supremacists is not actually Arian. It's all garbage, and it would be kinda hilarious if it wasn't that sad.
 
The person who says the offensive remark doesnt get to decide whether it is offensive or not. That is decided by the person whom he/she is talking to or can her him/her.
 
Piecake said:
The person who says the offensive remark doesnt get to decide whether it is offensive or not. That is decided by the person whom he/she is talking to or can her him/her.
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I would agree with this, but most people seem to lack the distinction that while racist things are offensive, not all offensive things are racist. Anyone has the right to find themselves offended by something, and they have the right to speak up if they find themselves offended by it.

The thing is, it doesn't make a person racist. Ignorant, sure. Stubborn, sure. An asshole? Perhaps, but not racist. Especially with such a word as "Oriental". It isn't telling someone how to feel -- they can feel anything they want. But to label someone or liken them as racist is just as ignorant and asshole-ish behavior.

This applies more so when the person's country of origin uses the word "Oriental" all over the place, and it's not seen as a racist or hurtful thing to say. Sure, it happened in the US. And sure, the person should be told "hey, Oriental is not cool here because that word has an ugly racial history in the US". But outside of that? To label or even imply racism? Fuck that.
 
How many racist things do you need to do in order to qualify as a racist? Do you need to hate a group of people? Do you need to at least blame them unequally for society's woes? Do you need to be willfully ignorant of someone's culture and background? Do you need to not acknowledge someone's offense, based on their identity, as legitimate?

Are people who aren't resolute racists incapable of doing racist things? Do you have to be an asshole to do asshole things?
 
Nephtis said:
I would agree with this, but most people seem to lack the distinction that while racist things are offensive, not all offensive things are racist. Anyone has the right to find themselves offended by something, and they have the right to speak up if they find themselves offended by it.

The thing is, it doesn't make a person racist. Ignorant, sure. Stubborn, sure. An asshole? Perhaps, but not racist. Especially with such a word as "Oriental". It isn't telling someone how to feel -- they can feel anything they want. But to label someone or liken them as racist is just as ignorant and asshole-ish behavior.

This applies more so when the person's country of origin uses the word "Oriental" all over the place, and it's not seen as a racist or hurtful thing to say. Sure, it happened in the US. And sure, the person should be told "hey, Oriental is not cool here because that word has an ugly racial history in the US". But outside of that? To label or even imply racism? Fuck that.
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No, it's NOT just as ignorant - stop with the false equivalence. Ignorant? Stubborn? Asshole? Refused to make a small adjustment to his own vernacular and omit a racially offensive term? You just described a racist.
 
i-Lo said:
I didn't know that 'oriental' was an offensive term for quite a long while. Good thing I learned before I made a fool of myself.

Anyway, I guess it's the same way I feel when caucasians refer to non-caucasians as "people of colour". It's such an "us" and "the rest of them" description.
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i-Lo said:
I have heard it quite a few times on channels like Fox news (hosts and guests). It still boggles my mind how caucasians escape the inclusion within that term since they are referred to as "white", which last time I checked (much like 'black') is also name of a colour.
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Structural and institutional racism in the US really is an "us vs them" thing with white people and everyone else. "People of color" comes from recognizing that situation.
 
Hate to come between you and Sketchbag since you are having such fun together, but

Gucci Messiah said:
And yes, there is a right and a wrong to this discussion. It's okay to unknowingly say something offensive and then change your stance after being called out on it. What isn't okay is victim blaming or using excuses like 'I grew up with the word' or 'I have _____ friends' to de-legitimize the feelings of others.
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Well. let's recognise that all we've got is one side of the conversation shall we. And sure, from what we've been told, that is the way it comes across.

BUT, we don't know the other side of the story. So let's not jump to conclusions about who is a racist and who is a bigot and who is right and wrong. And, for example, " I grew up with the word and that was the way it was used" might be a perfectly valid reason (and not necessarily just an excuse) for using it. Or it might not be of course.

Sounds to me the whole thing was a bit of an overreaction of both sides.

But also, in terms of the follow-on effect, see my post here. Things escalate. They can get out of hand. A lot of it (of everything) is having the social skills to pull it together - seems to me that in this case either party could have, but neither did. Doesn't need a blame game, needs a bit of learning both sides. Probably. I've been in a similar situation (as in, father of college student rooming with someone else, and it is a pretty uncomfortable and difficult conversation to have with someone you don't know, especially early in the term when your daughter doesn't know them well either). So probably the guy here was uncomfortable to start with and made more so.

I'm not defending him, because there's not enough here to defend. But I'm not going all yoohah for OP either.
 
jacksnap said:
How many racist things do you need to do in order to qualify as a racist? Do you need to hate a group of people? Do you need to at least blame them unequally for society's woes? Do you need to be willfully ignorant of someone's culture and background? Do you need to not acknowledge someone's offense, based on their identity, as legitimate?

Are people who aren't resolute racists incapable of doing racist things? Do you have to be an asshole to do asshole things?
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Go into a thread like this one

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=830395

And you can see that many people are hesitant to call a slur slewing, threatening, moron a racist.
 
I honestly didn't know oriental was considered offensive.
 
phisheep said:
Hate to come between you and Sketchbag since you are having such fun together, but



Well. let's recognise that all we've got is one side of the conversation shall we. And sure, from what we've been told, that is the way it comes across.

BUT, we don't know the other side of the story. So let's not jump to conclusions about who is a racist and who is a bigot and who is right and wrong. And, for example, " I grew up with the word and that was the way it was used" might be a perfectly valid reason (and not necessarily just an excuse) for using it. Or it might not be of course.

Sounds to me the whole thing was a bit of an overreaction of both sides.

But also, in terms of the follow-on effect, see my post here. Things escalate. They can get out of hand. A lot of it (of everything) is having the social skills to pull it together - seems to me that in this case either party could have, but neither did. Doesn't need a blame game, needs a bit of learning both sides. Probably. I've been in a similar situation (as in, father of college student rooming with someone else, and it is a pretty uncomfortable and difficult conversation to have with someone you don't know, especially early in the term when your daughter doesn't know them well either). So probably the guy here was uncomfortable to start with and made more so.

I'm not defending him, because there's not enough here to defend. But I'm not going all yoohah for OP either.
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This is a reasonable response. Perhaps I'm a little too gung-ho in favor of the OP and yes there are two sides to the story but this guy isn't going to make a neogaf account to defend himself and the OP hasn't given me a reason to question their truthfulness. Therefore, I'm going to go off of the information that we have present and form an opinion from there. At the end of the day it's an unfortunate situation and I hope the guy learned a little bit about cultural sensitivity.
 
mac said:
Go into a thread like this one

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=830395

And you can see that many people are hesitant to call a slur slewing, threatening, moron a racist.
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I'd like to hear an answer from those hesitant people. They have such a visceral reaction to accusations of racism, that I can't imagine they don't have some conviction in what constitutes real racism. And if answers differ, maybe that might shed light on the fact that racism isn't so cut and dry, that it doesn't just go in the direction of "let's assume they aren't doing something racist before slinging accusations".
 
I always associate the words people of color with PBS for some reason.

Also I'm not offended by the word Asian. I'm not even particularly offended by the word oriental. Mildly irked would be bordering on an overstatement. The most offensive thing to me is the racial quiz and the reaction he had.
 
Mineshaft_Gap said:
I'm sure anyone who occupies the spectrum between white and black will back me up on this: Racist people often feel the need to identify your racial background if it's not immediately obvious.

"So uhhh, where are you from?"

"Chicago and Detroit."

"Oh... Where were you born/your parents from?" or "Where are you REALLY from?"
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Late reply to this but I have to say I disagree with that. Now I wouldn't be like interrogating them but I love to talk about cultural/ethnic heritage with people and I am always fascinated by everyone's origins. I am proud of my mixed Irish/Scandinavian heritage and I like to talk about it and I like to learn about others too. When I meet people its just one of those things I like to talk about besides sports, current events, my family and work. I love the world and my dream is to visit at least half the countries in every continent before I die and I don't want to just visit the touristy spots. I want to actually experience the local culture. Because of this dream, when I meet someone who seems like they might be from another country or a first generation american born, I want to learn about their experiences and how they were different from mine.

I mean, if the person phrased the question as "where are you really from?" yeah that seems a bit antagonistic and confrontational and may be a racist person. All I am saying is that not every person who wants to know about your cultural heritage is a racist. some of us are the complete and total opposite and want to learn about other cultures in order to respect it more and learn about other peoples beliefs and traditions due to just pure open mindedness and admiration. I will also say I don't start off by asking stuff about cultural or ethnic heritage but if we have a long conversion it might be brought up in the first conversation because I will definitely talk about my own heritage

Anyways, It's probable that I misread your intent from you post, I just feel I had to say something for the non racists out there who just want to learn just in case you were actually calling out anyone who wants to know about other peoples origins as being racist. I am going to just leave it there and this topic is hard to talk about without pissing someone off due to bad wording etc.


EDIT: oh and yeah to the original OP topic, Yeah oriental is a antiquated derogatory term and you were correct to correct the father but probably could have done it a little better. When he started arguing about it I would have just told him that I found it offensive and if he asked other Asians or people of Asian decent they would probably tell him the same thing and excuse myself from the room politely so it wouldn't get any worse or awkward. Most older people I know who hold on to those antiquated terms will respect that and will not be like that again around you and things will also not be as awkward. You can't leave them time to try to defend its use, usually they will just stonewall and be intractable. If you walk away, they have a way out and will respect your wishes next time, generally speaking of course, if they were just ignorant of its offensiveness.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I'm really into reading your explanation of this.
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Because "racist" is way too strong of a word for what the father said. Being labeled a racist is almost as bad a being called a pedophile now. The father was at worst slightly insensitive and certainly not racist. It's completely understandable that he would defend himself. OP is clearly in the wrong for accusing him of racism.
 
Gucci Messiah said:
Enough with the semantics, everyone else seemed to know what I was talking about. And yes, you did say she was wrong:
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I did not... I said both they were trying to win the argument... if you read that as "wrong", or you interpret that I'm assigning guilt, that's your words, not mine.

Gucci Messiah said:
In what world is this not putting blame on the victim here? How is that not saying that the OP was wrong in this situation? The OP didn't cause a confrontation, the guy did when he refused to acknowledge that 'oriental' was offensive to the OP and tried to tell her what words she could and could not get upset about. HE escalated the situation by trying to validate his casual racism and white privilege through a google search and when that failed, he brushed off her concerns with the 'well I grew up using the word' excuse. Only then did the OP inform this jerk that racist people tend to use the same tactics, which is 100% the truth. Not sure why you're trying to equally assign guilt or make it seem like the OP is in the wrong here for standing up for herself. She dealt with the situation way better than I would have handled it, I can tell you that much.
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please re-read my posts... you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point... I basically agreed with you that the guy was the one that was wrong and started the whole thing. I just said that she could have handled that in a more intelligent way. She was angry and said a stupid thing IMO, at that point, both parties were angry and stubborn and made the issue even worse. We differ in that. Get over it.

You keep saying that I'm trying to assign guilt, I'm not. The guy is the one to blame, (third and last time I'm saying this). And the fact that you might handle the situation in a worse way don't make her actions any better, just make your hypothetical actions worse.

Allow me to have a different opinion that yours on the subject, it's actually very hard to form an accurate opinion of the situation just reading words (and vague versions of the situation), you understood one thing, I understood another.
 
I really don't think letting someone know that their words are offending you is in any way a bad thing. It's a good thing. Should she have just grinned and bared it?
 
boiled goose said:
Racist apologist here.

You know why the word is offensive? Because it is a term used to exclude. It points to some fundamental difference between asians and westerns.
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What would be an inoffensive way to describe the ethnicity?

For example I call coloured people coloured people and white people white, those are not offensive terms because they are stating facts, if someone finds it offensive then that is an issue they have.
 
Damn.. i mean, the jury has been back to deem "oriental" racist and off-putting since the mid-90's..

Where the hell have all of you been?
 
commedieu said:
Damn.. i mean, the jury has been back to deem "oriental" racist and off-putting since the mid-90's..

Where the hell have all of you been?
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Hanging out in the wrong corner of the internet apparently, had no idea.

Let me just add this to the list of things I can't say anymore.
 
Krakn3Dfx said:
Hanging out in the wrong corner of the internet apparently, had no idea.

Let me just add this to the list of things I can't say anymore.
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Internet? Any asian friends that you've ever discussed race related issues with? I'm 30. I learned around 12-13 that Oriental was offensive. No internet required. It could be an American specific sensitivity, due to the way that "orientals" were portrayed on television.
 
Oriental is similar to words like "Chinaman" "Colored" and the like. Words that for their time weren't meant (necessarily) as offensive, but ones that have over time come to be known as highly culturally insensitive.

I can't imagine anyone under 60 using these words in todays society.
 
commedieu said:
Internet? Any asian friends that you've ever discussed race related issues with? I'm 30. I learned around 12-13 that Oriental was offensive. No internet required. It could be an American specific sensitivity, due to the way that "orientals" were portrayed on television.
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I don't have any Asian friends, but I really only have like 2, maybe 3 people I consider friends I talk to on any sort of regular basis anyway, 2 of them are white, one is part Native American, so I'm probably missing out on all kinds of offensive terms I'm going to end up regret saying at some point in the future.
 
GabDX said:
Why are differences wrong? Is it also wrong to point out that someone is a redhead?
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What is he trying to point out? That she's from somewhere different? She's the one who's from America, not him. That her race is different? Isn't that a pretty sensitive topic to bring up to a complete stranger?
 
commedieu said:
Damn.. i mean, the jury has been back to deem "oriental" racist and off-putting since the mid-90's..

Where the hell have all of you been?
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Someone should make a timeline on when terms went out of vogue due to racist connotations. Might be enlightening. Would be interesting to see how the "politically correct" terms evolved over time.

The list for black people would probably be a bit longer than for white people. Unless you include things like Kraut or Dago maybe.
 
stutte said:
Oriental is similar to words like "Chinaman" "Colored" and the like. Words that for their time weren't meant (necessarily) as offensive, but ones that have over time come to be known as highly culturally insensitive.

I can't imagine anyone under 60 using these words in todays society.
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like "bitch" or "faggot" or "negro".
 
stutte said:
I'm not sure of a time where bitch or faggot were ever meant as something other than a negative descriptor for another human.
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Memory is hazy but I believe faggot was a bundle of sticks around the middle ages and they would call that to homosexuals because they would burn them alive with the bundle of sticks then overtime that word was associated to them. and well bitch was originally meant for a name for a female dog.
 
Zoe said:
What is he trying to point out? That she's from somewhere different? She's the one who's from America, not him. That her race is different? Isn't that a pretty sensitive topic to bring up to a complete stranger?
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Why would that be a sensitive topic? Honest question because I really don't see it.
 
Not on-topic, but I think it's automatic now that whenever someone asks me "where are you from?", I answer with "my parents are from pakistan, I was born here". No problem with that question. Did the same thing to a barber today, and he didn't probe in some weird way but then that is probably reserved for mixed race people where it can get awkward ("what are you?" lol).
 
fader said:
Memory is hazy but I believe faggot was a bundle of sticks around the middle ages and they would call that to homosexuals because they would burn them alive with the bundle of sticks then overtime that word was associated to them. and well bitch was originally meant for a name for a female dog.
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The first one about the word faggot isn't true (as far as the burning of homosexuals).

But yes, they both had non human descriptor uses before.
 
fader said:
Memory is hazy but I believe faggot was a bundle of sticks around the middle ages and they would call that to homosexuals because they would burn them alive with the bundle of sticks then overtime that word was associated to them. and well bitch was originally meant for a name for a female dog.
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Apparently that is an urban legend according to wikipedia. First time I'm reading through the history of that word.

iboGosDdVELF6C.png

"Faggoting" oh my
 
backslashbunny said:
Bitch = female dog
Faggot = piece of wood (in the UK, a cigarette)
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I worded it wrong, I meant: As it pertains to their uses towards humans, they have never not been negative.

I do know their origins ;)

etymology ftw.

backslashbunny said:
Yeah I don't get it. It's illegal for many states to use the word "Oriental," because it's considered to very negative towards a race.
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Illegal? Frowned upon, for sure, but illegal? Gonna need some reference for that.
 
RayMaker said:
What would be an inoffensive way to describe the ethnicity?

For example I call coloured people coloured people and white people white, those are not offensive terms because they are stating facts, if someone finds it offensive then that is an issue they have.
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Asian is fine. Or asian american. Etc.

Colored is generally offensive. What is the threshold for colored? How much melanin? It is not a fact. It is a term used to single out 'white' people vs everyone else.


Ok so you just don't care what people feel. No point in discussing then.
People say they find something offensive, then you say I don't care what they find offensive. OK then. This is a great way to make progress in society.

GabDX said:
Why are differences wrong? Is it also wrong to point out that someone is a redhead?
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Differences are not wrong, but you do know stereotypes don't apply to individuals right? So when you use a term loaded with baggage and describe an individual with it, it could be offensive. Oriental is a term that defines the person using those PERCEIVED differences, not actual ones pertaining to the individual. If you call an Asian American oriental, you are saying from the start you are not one of US. It is a term to exclude. It doesn't celebrate differences, it uses them to exclude.
 
Azih said:
I really don't think letting someone know that their words are offending you is in any way a bad thing. It's a good thing. Should she have just grinned and bared it?
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I don't know if you were referring to my post, but let me explain myself.

Him: "something something oriental something".
Her: "Please don't use that word, is offensive for me" <-------- Good
Him: "But that's the word I grew up with, I'm not using it offensively"
Her: "Yeah, that's the excuse racist people use" <------ Not so good

There were a LOT of options to keep that conversation going in a civilized manner.


and, those people talking about the alternative uses of "faggot" and "bitch"...
yeah, those words were used to describe something entirely different to a human being, the moment they are used to describe human beings, it becomes offensive instantly.

"Oriental" it's an adjective describing ethnicity. I'm still puzzled as why it is offensive. It's like this "The Office" joke.

Oscar: Both my parents were born in Mexico. And they moved to the United States a year before I was born. So I grew up in the United States. My parents were Mexican.
Michael: Wow. Wow. That is... That is a great story. That's the American dream right there, right? Um, let me ask you, is there a term besides "Mexican" that you prefer? Something less offensive?
Oscar: Mexican isn't offensive.
Michael: Well, it has certain connotations.
Oscar: Like what?
Michael: Like... I don't... I don't know.
Oscar: What connotations, Michael? You meant something.
Michael: No. Now, remember that honesty...
Oscar: I'm just curious

the word itself it's not offensive; except in Michael's head...
 
backslashbunny said:
Also in Oregon.

The reason why they'd make it a law is because... well, just look at the mindset of this thread. A lot of people here STILL insist on wallowing in their whole "but I don't think it is, and I'm going to ignore all the reasons why, because there."

Just look at the guy below me.


& I'm still puzzled how people can recognize why "colored" is an offensive way to refer to black people/minorities, but not understand why "Oriental" still holds loaded history in United States, despite the fact that the history has been explained in this thread.

Is the US education system so bad people don't learn history, and don't even learn how to read? Or is it just a lack of empathy? Who knows...
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Cute. Now that you got that out of your system and won some internet points, let's have a normal conversation without the condescending crap. Please don't do that, it's annoying and makes the discussion unnecessarily rough.

ok. now let me give you more details in my train of thought, so you stop assuming stuff.

I read the little history lesson parroted over and over in this thread, and I get why it was offensive in a certain specific period of time, I just find it very puzzling that it's still offensive NOW, in the 21st Century.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, just like "oriental", the word "German" was used in a pejorative way in older times in America (specifically, during the world wars). Why did that word evolved and stopped being offensive and the other didn't?... that's what puzzles me.

The words itself has one meaning, the context gives it "extra meaning"... that context that made the word "oriental" offensive is long gone... so, why does it still is offensive?
 
@bunny
it seems funny you would be one to question lack of empathy towards others


but if someone tells me something is offensive to them and i wasn't aware before hand, i'll make sure to be respectful of that around them. i might ask them why it's offensive just to gain a better understanding, but that's about it
 
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