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[TheExodu5]

Considering the voltage limit for the p67/z68 boards I don't think heatsinks are that big of a deal; the limit is still < 1.65 right?

Yeah, the limit is 1.65V. 1.5V is the recommended voltage.

I'd always recommend a heatsink. First off, it won't be as noisy/whiny as the stock Intel heatsink. Second, it will allow you to easily overclock to ~4.6-5GHz. For $30, you'd be crazy not to do it.

 

[Van Owen]

I bought this ram yesterday since I had a coupon.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145315

Guess I should have waited today since the price would have been the same, or even cheaper if I could apply both codes.

 

[mkenyon]

yeah, i'd have to disagree on that. I've run three SLI systems now and I've never gotten any of those problems. i'm sure they exist, but it isn't as terrible as you make it out to be.

Your anecdotal evidence does not mean that the problems don't exist. Although, I'm genuinely happy for you that you haven't had to deal with that kind of garbage. Pretty lucky!

How do you set your HDD to RAID 0?

You need two. You can do it with your mobo if you have a RAID controller, read your manual and it will guide you step by step. Additionally, you can do it through Window's disk manager. Select two unformatted volumes and create a new 'striped' volume.

 

[RS4-]

Yeah, the limit is 1.65V. 1.5V is the recommended voltage.

I'd always recommend a heatsink. First off, it won't be as noisy/whiny as the stock Intel heatsink. Second, it will allow you to easily overclock to ~4.6-5GHz. For $30, you'd be crazy not to do it.

Oh shit my bad, I meant the heatsinks for ram; without them you wouldn't have to worry about cpu heatsink clearance.

 

[Yoritomo]

on Sandy Bridge builds just get the cheapest reliable ram you can get. at 1333 or above.

 

[mkenyon]

Oh shit my bad, I meant the heatsinks for ram; without them you wouldn't have to worry about cpu heatsink clearance.

Most "heatsinks" on RAM are not really heat spreaders, they're just for looks. Only the super expensive RAM actually bothers to put some copper on there to transfer the heat. I did some testing with some Ripjaws, and it was the exact same temp whether it had the "heatsinks" on or not.

If you want speedy RAM with a low profile, Crucial Ballistix Smart Tracer is my personal favorite.

 

[RumblingRosco]

on Sandy Bridge builds just get the cheapest reliable ram you can get. at 1333 or above.

The word on the 'net is that 1.65 V RAM should be avoided owing to possible compatibility issues; I also believe RAM over 1.59 V used with the i3/i5/i7 line voids the Intel warranty, but I may be wrong on that.

Otherwise, what you said is essentially true. 1333 Mhz or above at the cheapest price.

 

[Yoritomo]

The word on the 'net is that 1.65 V RAM should be avoided owing to possible compatibility issues; I also believe RAM over 1.59 V used with the i3/i5/i7 line voids the Intel warranty, but I may be wrong on that.

Otherwise, what you said is essentially true. 1333 Mhz or above at the cheapest price.

yeah that too. 1.5v 1333 or above cheapest and reliable.

 

[jarosh]

I suggest this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...C-052411-Index-_-DesktopMemory-_-20145345-L0B using the promo code: EMCKEHF23 for $75... part of the Newegg Memorial Day sale.

not in the US, so this isn't gonna work for me but i'm probably gonna get that ram either way.

The fastest ones there would be the Corsair Vengeance (CL8). The one thing to consider though, is the RAM heatsink height. Make sure it doesn't conflict with your aftermarket CPU cooler.

the cl8 and cl9 are only like a $5 difference. so the cl8 is faster?

i'm definitely not going with the stock cooler, so i'm gonna have to make sure that the ram will fit. haven't decided on a cooler yet.

 

[PolishQ]

Just snagged an i5 2500k from eBay for $185. The seller has two more if anyone's interested:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...79227&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_1018wt_1140

 

[scy]

Hate to ask again but any thoughts on these two monitors?
HP ZR24w at $399.99 vs Dell U2410 at $479.99.

Or basically any other comparable 24"+ monitor at around the same price range. Ugh, buying new monitors/TVs/etc. always takes me forever as I spend forever doing every little comparison possible to get the "best purchase possible."

 

[BloodySinner]

I'm using a FILCO Tenkeyless with brown switches, which I love. BlackWidow is good if you want blue switches, but I haven't had a good experience with Razer products (2 broken DeathAdders) and I read about BW issues much much more than I read about FILCO/Das/Leopold problems. 6G V2 is also good, but I prefer blue/brown switches to black.

I've read a lot about broken Razer products myself, but I've yet to experience any issues. My Copperhead broke because I raged one too many times, but that's about it... It's unfortunate that there isn't too many options as far as backlit mechanical keyboards go.

 

[Yoritomo]

Just snagged an i5 2500k from eBay for $185. The seller has two more if anyone's interested:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...79227&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_1018wt_1140

Good deal if you don't have a Microcenter nearby. But then you can't really rma the chip to the manufacturer if it's bad or there's a problem.

 

[mkenyon]

Tron Lightcycle Mod. Going to be at PDXLAN in July, been following his build for the past few months. Pretty rad setup.

 

[jarosh]

can anyone recommend a micro tower case or anything that's really tangibly smaller than your typical midi tower for a micro atx board? i'm really struggling to find ANYTHING decent that isn't super tiny and therefore won't fit modern gpus and big coolers. it would have to be a brand that's available in europe.

 

[clav]

can anyone recommend a micro tower case or anything that's really tangibly smaller than your typical midi tower for a micro atx board? i'm really struggling to find ANYTHING decent that isn't super tiny and therefore won't fit modern gpus and big coolers. it would have to be a brand that's available in europe.

Thermaltake Lanbox Lite: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PLSTXO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Silverstone SG02: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001AZCUMA/?tag=neogaf0e-20

I don't recommend the Apevia Q-Pack or the Ultra Microfly (I own one) as the build quality is very cheap.

Oh, if you're planning to overclock, please double check the heatsink dimensions as I don't know if an aftermarket heatsink will fit.

Edit: Oh. You want a tower. Derp. Well, what's wrong with just using an ATX midtower? Those will be half the prices of the ones I listed above.

Report back. Are those cases something that you want? They're not as small as they look.

 

[scy]

can anyone recommend a micro tower case or anything that's really tangibly smaller than your typical midi tower for a micro atx board? i'm really struggling to find ANYTHING decent that isn't super tiny and therefore won't fit modern gpus and big coolers. it would have to be a brand that's available in europe.

I picked up a BitFenix Shinobi and it's not that big and had no problem fitting my Radeon 6950 (though it IS encroaching on the HDD bays but I don't really need 9 bays) and fits a Cooler Master Hyper 212+. $60-70 depending on if you want a window or not.

 

[TheExodu5]

Oh shit my bad, I meant the heatsinks for ram; without them you wouldn't have to worry about cpu heatsink clearance.

Yeah. RAM heatsinks are really only for looks. The 1333 and 1600MHz stuff definitely don't need heatsinks.

The G.Skill Ripjaw and Mushkin Silverline are pretty good in terms of clearance.

 

[mkenyon]

can anyone recommend a micro tower case or anything that's really tangibly smaller than your typical midi tower for a micro atx board? i'm really struggling to find ANYTHING decent that isn't super tiny and therefore won't fit modern gpus and big coolers. it would have to be a brand that's available in europe.

Lian Li V354.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

I'm thinking of upgrading my GTX260 to either a 460 or a 560. Is the 560 worth the higher price?

 

[yankeehater]

Woo my new PC just came today. I am so excited to finally join the master race. My wife and I decided to blow the budget up, so I went with something way more expensive then I originally planned, but I did want to assemble it myself, and I dont know anyone who could in real life.

Specs:

Intel Core i7-2600K (8MB Cache) Overclocked Turbo Boost to 4.1GHz
8GB Dual Channel DDR3 at 1333MHz
Dual 1GB GDDR5 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 SLI Enabled
1TB SATA 3Gb/s (7,200RPM) 32MB Cache

I cant wait to try out the Witcher 2 on it. I also want to play through Mass Effect 1/2 on it, I cant wait to see how much better they look.

 

[Cday]

Hate to ask again but any thoughts on these two monitors?
HP ZR24w at $399.99 vs Dell U2410 at $479.99.

Or basically any other comparable 24"+ monitor at around the same price range. Ugh, buying new monitors/TVs/etc. always takes me forever as I spend forever doing every little comparison possible to get the "best purchase possible."

Avoid the Dell unless you plan on buying a $100+ calibrator and using it for professional photoshop type stuff. It's a wide gamut monitor, which means many applications will look fucked up even after proper calibration.

 

[mkenyon]

I'm thinking of upgrading my GTX260 to either a 460 or a 560. Is the 560 worth the higher price?

Yep. You won't see much of a gain with the 460, but the 560 will be noticeable. Better bang for your buck in that regard.

 

[Str0ngStyle]

This question is being Cross Posted in the I Need a New PC Thread and the Tech Support thread because I am getting tired of dealing with this.

My Videocard keeps crashing. specifically, the display Driver. It is an Nvidia 9800gt and what it will do is sometimes it will just stop displaying any content for a few moments, goes to a black screen, then resume. Other times it will do things such as produce multi colored lines in my desktop/web browsing. Or just freeze up when playing games. I have tried everything I can think of to no avail. The last hardware change I made to my computer was I upgraded my monitor from 19in to 24in 1080p LCD. I cannot test the video card like I want to because I do not have another card to use. Any help I could get from you guys would be greatly appreciated Thanks

 

[scy]

Avoid the Dell unless you plan on buying a $100+ calibrator and using it for professional photoshop type stuff. It's a wide gamut monitor, which means many applications will look fucked up even after proper calibration.

Would it be a better comparison between the ZR24w and the Dell U2311 then? 16:10/24" vs 16:9/23" (and an $80 difference). Hm...

 

[Leonsito]

How about this RAM: https://www.alternate.es/html/pcbui...archClass=ram&artno=IDIFG3T7&cn=1&tn=BUILDERS ?

Seems like a good choice, 7-7-7-21 for 79€

 

[mkenyon]

This question is being Cross Posted in the I Need a New PC Thread and the Tech Support thread because I am getting tired of dealing with this.

My Videocard keeps crashing. specifically, the display Driver. It is an Nvidia 9800gt and what it will do is sometimes it will just stop displaying any content for a few moments, goes to a black screen, then resume. Other times it will do things such as produce multi colored lines in my desktop/web browsing. Or just freeze up when playing games. I have tried everything I can think of to no avail. The last hardware change I made to my computer was I upgraded my monitor from 19in to 24in 1080p LCD. I cannot test the video card like I want to because I do not have another card to use. Any help I could get from you guys would be greatly appreciated Thanks

Sounds like your card is overheating and/or dying. Contact the manufacturer if it's still under warranty.

 

[Str0ngStyle]

Sounds like your card is overheating and/or dying. Contact the manufacturer if it's still under warranty.

How long does video card warranties usually last?

 

[mkenyon]

Depends. XFX is a lifetime warranty if you registered it.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

If you can find a Q9550 for cheap, I'd say go for it. It's still a totally legitimate gaming CPU.

(That's a huge if though, last time I looked it was more expensive than much better modern CPUs)

Looks like I can get a 9550 for $150-160. I couldn't imagine getting a decent CPU, motherboard, and ram for that price.

 

[jarosh]

Thermaltake Lanbox Lite: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PLSTXO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Silverstone SG02: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001AZCUMA/?tag=neogaf0e-20

I don't recommend the Apevia Q-Pack or the Ultra Microfly (I own one) as the build quality is very cheap.

Oh, if you're planning to overclock, please double check the heatsink dimensions as I don't know if an aftermarket heatsink will fit.

Edit: Oh. You want a tower. Derp. Well, what's wrong with just using an ATX midtower? Those will be half the prices of the ones I listed above.

Report back. Are those cases something that you want? They're not as small as they look.

well, actually i wouldn't mind a desktop form factor. it's just that i haven't seen any that really looked like they would be able to fit everything reliably. but, holy hell, the dimensions on that thermaltake case must surely be wrong? 20 inches wide and long? that's bigger than most midi towers!

I picked up a BitFenix Shinobi and it's not that big and had no problem fitting my Radeon 6950 (though it IS encroaching on the HDD bays but I don't really need 9 bays) and fits a Cooler Master Hyper 212+. $60-70 depending on if you want a window or not.

hmm. while i like the case itself, it's just too big still. regular midi tower size.

Lian Li V354.

oh, i like this one. gonna look into it. a bit pricey though.

 

[seeds19]

I oced mi AMD phenom x6 1090t to 3'7 ghz, during the amd overdrive stresstest, the temp of the cpu is 64º C max temperature at full load, i'm in stock cooler is good the temp?

 

[mkenyon]

oh, i like this one. gonna look into it. a bit pricey though.

Worth every penny. The build quality is unsurpassed. This thread has a ton of good info on it.

I oced mi AMD phenom x6 1090t to 3'7 ghz, during the amd overdrive stresstest, the temp of the cpu is 64º C max temperature at full load, i'm in stock cooler is good the temp?

That's fine for max temp.

 

[scy]

hmm. while i like the case itself, it's just too big still. regular midi tower size.

Fractal has a midi tower (Fractal Design Arc Midi) too but I don't think it's much better dimension wise (23 x 46 x 51.5cm | 9.05 x 18.1 x 20in) than the Shinobi. There's also the Fractal Design Arc Mini but it is also not that much better (21 x 40.5 x48.4cm | 8.27 x 15.94 x 19.05in).

Edit: Just an added detail, the Midi supports cards up to 29 or 47 cm depending if the removable HDD bay is in there and the Mini supports up to 26 or 40 cm depending on the HDD bay.

 

[mkenyon]

Whelp. Looks like I'm finally going Sandybridge.

Finally, a powerhouse rig in form factor.

 

[scy]

Whelp. Looks like I'm finally going Sandybridge.

Finally, a powerhouse rig in form factor.

I want one if only because it's called Maximus.

 

[metsallica]

Hey guys! Haven't posted in this thread for quite some time, with good reason... I move like a snail. I think I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on my first personal build since 2003 and wanted to run the components by everyone for feedback.

Already purchased (months ago):

Video Card: GTX 570
Processor: i7-2600K

Currently in my cart on Newegg:

Motherboard: ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Boot Drive: Intel 320 160GB
Media Drive: 2TB WD Caviar Black
Ram: Corsair XMS 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 (sane heatsink edition)
Power Supply: Corsair HX850 (modular + room to grow)
Case: Fractal Define R3 (open to suggestions here, actually got this one from this thread. Needs to be quiet with great airflow, tool-less, and roomy)

Will probably add 2 optical drives as well, one BR player and one BR burner. Recommendations appreciated. Also considering an ASUS Xonar for audio, as I've never been a fan of on-board solutions (but my experiences are pretty dated at this point).

Appreciate any feedback!

 

[mkenyon]

Rockin' build man.

 

[metsallica]

Thank you! My previous computer is still going strong (minus the gaming aspect, of course) but I figured it was beyond time. I plan to be more regular on the upgrading, too.

 

[black_vegeta]

Hey guys! Haven't posted in this thread for quite some time, with good reason... I move like a snail. I think I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on my first personal build since 2003 and wanted to run the components by everyone for feedback.

Already purchased (months ago):

Video Card: GTX 570
Processor: i7-2600K

Currently in my cart on Newegg:

Motherboard: ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Boot Drive: Intel 320 160GB
Media Drive: 2TB WD Caviar Black
Ram: Corsair XMS 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 (sane heatsink edition)
Power Supply: Corsair HX850 (modular + room to grow)
Case: Fractal Define R3 (open to suggestions here, actually got this one from this thread. Needs to be quiet with great airflow, tool-less, and roomy)

Will probably add 2 optical drives as well, one BR player and one BR burner. Recommendations appreciated. Also considering an ASUS Xonar for audio, as I've never been a fan of on-board solutions (but my experiences are pretty dated at this point).

Appreciate any feedback!

Do you plan on overclocking? CPU heatsink?

Otherwise a beastly build!

 

[Heysoos]

Figured this is the best place to put ask this, so here it goes. I recently bought a new hard drive for my M11X, and bought an enclosure for the old one. Put it together, it's all working well, all my old files are still in the old hard drive when I access it. So question is, what do I do with the extra one? Do I just reformat it and it's good to go?

 

[Izayoi]

Hey guys! Haven't posted in this thread for quite some time, with good reason... I move like a snail. I think I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on my first personal build since 2003 and wanted to run the components by everyone for feedback.

Already purchased (months ago):

Video Card: GTX 570
Processor: i7-2600K

Currently in my cart on Newegg:

Motherboard: ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Boot Drive: Intel 320 160GB
Media Drive: 2TB WD Caviar Black
Ram: Corsair XMS 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 (sane heatsink edition)
Power Supply: Corsair HX850 (modular + room to grow)
Case: Fractal Define R3 (open to suggestions here, actually got this one from this thread. Needs to be quiet with great airflow, tool-less, and roomy)

Will probably add 2 optical drives as well, one BR player and one BR burner. Recommendations appreciated. Also considering an ASUS Xonar for audio, as I've never been a fan of on-board solutions (but my experiences are pretty dated at this point).

Appreciate any feedback!

If you're going to be spending extra on a K series, you might as well toss in the 212+ cooler.

Awesome build.

Figured this is the best place to put ask this, so here it goes. I recently bought a new hard drive for my M11X, and bought an enclosure for the old one. Put it together, it's all working well, all my old files are still in the old hard drive when I access it. So question is, what do I do with the extra one? Do I just reformat it and it's good to go?

Yup. Make sure there's nothing you want on the extra drive and reformat it.

 

[TheExodu5]

Hey guys! Haven't posted in this thread for quite some time, with good reason... I move like a snail. I think I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on my first personal build since 2003 and wanted to run the components by everyone for feedback.

Already purchased (months ago):

Video Card: GTX 570
Processor: i7-2600K

Currently in my cart on Newegg:

Motherboard: ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Boot Drive: Intel 320 160GB
Media Drive: 2TB WD Caviar Black
Ram: Corsair XMS 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 (sane heatsink edition)
Power Supply: Corsair HX850 (modular + room to grow)
Case: Fractal Define R3 (open to suggestions here, actually got this one from this thread. Needs to be quiet with great airflow, tool-less, and roomy)

Will probably add 2 optical drives as well, one BR player and one BR burner. Recommendations appreciated. Also considering an ASUS Xonar for audio, as I've never been a fan of on-board solutions (but my experiences are pretty dated at this point).

Appreciate any feedback!

Caviar Black is overkill for a media drive. Go for a 5400RPM drive. You'll pay half the price ($70-$80), it will be 80-90% as fast, and it will be much quieter.

 

[jarosh]

Worth every penny. The build quality is unsurpassed. This thread has a ton of good info on it.

yeah, that sounds like a decent case for me... sadly though it is absolutely impossible to get here in switzerland. not a single retailer has it in stock and they all don't know when or IF they ever get stock again

i could get what i assume is an older model for quite a bit cheaper though, the Lian Li PC-V351A. is that one good too?


EDIT: there's also the Lian Li PC-V352B, which looks really neat. could get that one too. any input?

 

[·feist·]

thanks. i looked at that link again, and the ONLY z68 one i can get here for a reasonable price is the gigabyte one. this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128495. but it costs pretty much the same as the asus m pro, so i don't know if that's worth it. besides, i don't know, is gigabyte a brand to trust?

one thing i've read about the Asus P8P67-M PRO is that it has trouble booting from ssds. that'd be a deal breaker. you ever hear anything about that? does anyone here have this board who can say something about it?

Gigabyte is the number two motherboard brand after Asus. They're definitely a trusted company.

Not familiar with any SSD boot issues with the M Pro. The only thing I recall were some minor UEFI bugs with early models, that I believe have been addressed.

can anyone recommend a micro tower case or anything that's really tangibly smaller than your typical midi tower for a micro atx board? i'm really struggling to find ANYTHING decent that isn't super tiny and therefore won't fit modern gpus and big coolers. it would have to be a brand that's available in europe.

Here are a few quick options. Depending on your budget and tastes, I can recommend some others.

Lian Li PC-V354 SilverStone FT03 & Lan Gear Da Box 100
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23903151#post23903151
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23892570#post23892570
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26228371#post26228371

Fractal Design Arc Mini & Fractal Design Define Mini
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26258030#post26258030
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=27547578#post27547578


For a bit more of an HTPC feel, or different take on a desktop:

Lian Li PC-C50 & SilverStone GD06
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26485304#post26485304


Then there are other, pricier options like this beauty:

Will run you about the price of 3 of the above case options, though...

 

[MesserWolf]

Hey guys! Haven't posted in this thread for quite some time, with good reason... I move like a snail. I think I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on my first personal build since 2003 and wanted to run the components by everyone for feedback.

Already purchased (months ago):

Video Card: GTX 570
Processor: i7-2600K

Currently in my cart on Newegg:

Motherboard: ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Boot Drive: Intel 320 160GB
Media Drive: 2TB WD Caviar Black
Ram: Corsair XMS 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 (sane heatsink edition)
Power Supply: Corsair HX850 (modular + room to grow)
Case: Fractal Define R3 (open to suggestions here, actually got this one from this thread. Needs to be quiet with great airflow, tool-less, and roomy)

Will probably add 2 optical drives as well, one BR player and one BR burner. Recommendations appreciated. Also considering an ASUS Xonar for audio, as I've never been a fan of on-board solutions (but my experiences are pretty dated at this point).

Appreciate any feedback!

very good config!

I would just use 1 HD of 1 tb or 2 HD of 1 tb. I fear for the reliability of HDs with such high capacity / density. But it's probably nothing ....

 

[·feist·]

EDIT: there's also the Lian Li PC-V352B, which looks really neat. could get that one too. any input?

No personal experience with the V352, but the few owners I know who have one seem to love it. Not exactly the last word on cooling for a gaming-type build, though.

 

[mkenyon]

yeah, that sounds like a decent case for me... sadly though it is absolutely impossible to get here in switzerland. not a single retailer has it in stock and they all don't know when or IF they ever get stock again

i could get what i assume is an older model for quite a bit cheaper though, the Lian Li PC-V351A. is that one good too?


EDIT: there's also the Lian Li PC-V352B, which looks really neat. could get that one too. any input?

Has 4 fewer HDD bays, if that matters to you. Not sure how it performs on cooling. Check to see if you can find any reviews on the cases to find about cooling ability. The fact that the whole case is aluminum makes a big difference though, since the whole thing becomes a heat sink.

Then there are other, pricier options like this beauty:

Will run you about the price of 3 of the above case options, though...

What.... I must own this. Who makes this piece of art?

 

[jarosh]

whoooa, i didn't know something like that silverstone one even existed! thanks for bringing it to my attention, feist. i could even fit that into my shelf under the tv. is that a good case for a gaming rig? is the cooling alright? i like my cooling as quiet as possible. if you have any more recommendations for those kinds of desktop cases, shoot!

and that Lian Li PC-C50 is cool, but very expensive and impossible to find here.

 

[jarosh]

actually, scratch that, the silverstone is just a bit too wide for my shelf. shame, i really like it a lot and it's damn affordable. i guess they can't make it any slimmer or else a micro atx won't fit sideways...? or are there desktop cases at sub 40 cm in width (~15 inches)?

edit: oops, sorry for dp

edit2: the lan gear da box would be fantastic, but it's not sold at all in switzerland, sadly. all of this stuff gives me hope though that there is a desktop/micro form factor case out there after all that will fit into my shelf...