Viola of the Abyss
Member
They're pretty much a tie for me but T2 wins because Guns 'n Roses!!!!!
EDIT: Spoilers in the video and comments
EDIT: Spoilers in the video and comments
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I think I like The Terminator more than Terminator 2: Judgement Day
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sketchsanchez
Member
I see what you mean but i think he was more than just "fine" yknow? I mean, at least according to what we're shown in the film, John Conner is this kid whose mom survived a robot trying to kill her. He loved her and believed in her but then shes taken from him and told that she's this crazy person and a liar. Why wouldn't he be a petulant brat? His life was a lie.
Considering that, i think Edward did a great job playing *that* kid.
You are right of course T2 and Jurassic park aren't to blame. but neither are the turn of the century blockbusters.
Ultimately it was Jaws that started this.
Don't get me wrong Jaws was an incredible film, and though I think T2 is a bad sequel to Terminator I don't think it is a bad movie. However the summer event film became a tentpole in the movie business. the past few decades has been about refining the formula for the industries money making films.
It is simply easier to see this process through the serialization of successful ( sometimes not so successful) movies, like Terminator, Jaws, Die Hard, Jurassic Park and many others.
Terminator had a tone, a singular special feeling. T2 delivered something very different, and in the process reduced the impact of the first. Arnold's Terminator across all films is less intimidating because of what they did to it in T2.
Summer blockbusters have become action set pieces with exposition bridges. Terminator rose above that with it's mood and story building, T2 in my opinion didn't.
Many great stories, and some of my favorite films came during this process. Lots of them also ended up with franchises that drove those ideas and stories steadily into the ground.
So when I say T2 stands for everything wrong with the summer blockbuster bullshit that is what I mean.
edit: Of course you have to remember what it was like to see terminator before T2 existed to realize how much was lost in the first film by making the second.
In terms of athmosphere and suspense T1 craps all over T2.It has that low-budget gritty feel and look which suits it incredibly well. And Arnie works much better as a bad guy.
Also, the future scenes in T1, especially the one where the terminator infiltrates and shoots up the rebel base, are simply incredibly and hold up well. You really do get the feeling here that humanity is almost done for with the last survivors living in squallor in makeshift bases in undergound sewers and under constant threat of being wiped out by a much superior force.. It somewhow felt really believable.
If T4 had been done in this 'humanity-on-the-brink' style instead of glorified hollywood style it would have been a 100X better movie.
Also, the future scenes in T1, especially the one where the terminator infiltrates and shoots up the rebel base, are simply incredibly and hold up well. You really do get the feeling here that humanity is almost done for with the last survivors living in squallor in makeshift bases in undergound sewers and under constant threat of being wiped out by a much superior force.. It somewhow felt really believable.
If T4 had been done in this 'humanity-on-the-brink' style instead of glorified hollywood style it would have been a 100X better movie.
T2 is the whole package.
T1 is necessary for you understand why Sarah is so fearful of the terminator but that's it. I think I saw 2 first when I was a kid and then 1 later and was none the worse for it. It works actually, treating 1 like a prequel instead of the first iteration.
T1 is necessary for you understand why Sarah is so fearful of the terminator but that's it. I think I saw 2 first when I was a kid and then 1 later and was none the worse for it. It works actually, treating 1 like a prequel instead of the first iteration.
Fallout-NL
Member
Yep, that's the one I meant. It's perfect.
You hit the nail on the head. That is excellently phrased.
Yeah, strikingly so. Wonder how they managed to pull that off.
TUROK
Member
They're both fucking awesome and I agree that The Terminator has that dirty, gritty feel that was missing from the second, but I still love T2 much more.
Hell, Terminator 2 is my favorite movie of all time.
What seals the deal for me is the relationship between John and the Terminator, and the implications it brings. Here you have a machine actually being a role model and a father figure towards a kid, and it eventually builds to a sad yet cautiously hopeful ending.
I don't give a fuck what anyone else says, but this is deep. Every time I watch it, it hits me like a freight train of emotion.
This is the element that catapults T2 over T1 for me.
Hell, Terminator 2 is my favorite movie of all time.
What seals the deal for me is the relationship between John and the Terminator, and the implications it brings. Here you have a machine actually being a role model and a father figure towards a kid, and it eventually builds to a sad yet cautiously hopeful ending.
I don't give a fuck what anyone else says, but this is deep. Every time I watch it, it hits me like a freight train of emotion.
This is the element that catapults T2 over T1 for me.
Wiktor
Member
T2 did kind fell like a kind of kids movie, so that's not surprising.
I think T2 has a sterility to it that makes it feel more like a family friendly kind of movie. T1 feels like a young guy trying to prove himself and put his vision, as best he could, on to the screen. T2 is that same guy coming back as a proven success and wanting to show everyone what awesome shit he can do with his cool ass new toys.
Jables Swan
Member
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Nothing in T1 compared to this.
Bullshit. That's barely even noticable. In fact in all the times I've watched the movie I never noticed anything wrong with that. That part goes by pretty fast and quite frankly even that gif where I'm seeing it over and over again it's not that noticable. Do not even try to compare that with how bad some shit looked in T1. Don't even try. You're reaching.
lucius
Member
I always felt The Terminator was better than T2, but both were great. My cousin said I was crazy for liking the first one better and most people I know say T2 is better. T2 was way ahead of it's time for special effects but The Terminator was a badass with more classic lines even though he had very little to say.
fastford58
Member
T1 is just a leaner, meaner experience. Relentless, simple, and dark. I love it.
T2 is glorious as well, but for different reasons. T3/T4 don't exist.
T2 is glorious as well, but for different reasons. T3/T4 don't exist.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Funny thing is I've seen both numerous times over the years, but it was only watching them back-to-back that the differences really stood out to me. Weird, because I'm usually pretty sensitive towards tonal differences in a narrative and themes, and the differences between Alien/Aliens were immediately obvious and I've always preferred the first. The significantly cheesier script of T2 didn't jump out to me until I had T1 right before it.
SpoonyBard
Banned
While I agree that it's not a big deal, it doesn't look as bad in that gif as it does in the movie. The scene is cut in an awkward way, so T-1000 changes position between cuts and it makes it look weird.
Every time I think of the difference between T1 and T2, it all boils down to the "give me your clothes" scenes. In T1, the unstoppable killing machine gets attacked and puts his fist through a guys chest (literally). In T2, the unstoppable killing machine gets burned, stabbed, hit with a pool cue, has MULTIPLE guns pulled on him and.. Human casualties 0.0. Speaking of which.. in T1, when Arnie says "I'll be back" it means a police station full of cops are about to die. In T2 it means some people are going to get shot in the legs. Even the T-1000 was a bigger pussy than Arnie was in T1.
Saint of Killers
Member
80's grime > 90's slick blockbuster
Lucky Forward
Member
Actually, check out the deleted scenes from T1. There is indeed a side mission to blow-up Cyberdyne. It's what the home-made bombs are for and in another deleted scene after Reese is put in the body bag and Sarah is put in an ambulance, the building is shown to be Cyberdyne and one of the owners tells a lackey to take the CPU to it's lab/R&D section.
Really? That's odd, because the building they were in didn't look anything like a high-tech computer company (even for the 80's) it looked more like a heavy industrial manufacturing plant. Why would a computer chip company have a giant hydraulic press?
Sarah: Can you stop it?
Reese: I don't know. With these weapons, I don't know.
I'd always assumed Reese realized he needed something more powerful than bullets to stop the terminator, so that's why he made the pipe bombs. He did manage to blow it in half with one. Even in the tunnel chase, they might have blown Arnie off his bike if they got a lucky hit, allowing them to get away in the truck. (Disclaimer: I have no idea how powerful a pipe bomb is in real life.)
Yeah I agree. Special effects and story can co-exist, as it does in many movies.
Did you know that Arnie actually financed the whole scene!? The thing was planed but the Studios didn't want to pay for it. But Arnie said "We really NEED this scene" and so he paid for it
I did not know that. That's pretty cool as that's the best action scene in the movie.
I like how you chose a scene that was cut from the movie.
VeryGooster
Banned
I think the odd thing for me is that while I choose T1 over T2 because of its more horror-oriented tone, I pick Aliens over Alien because the action set-pieces win me over, and I love Alien. Maybe I'm just bound to choose Michael Biehn.
I H8 Memes
Member
How could you not have noticed that the first time you saw it? It looks like clothes stuffed with rags.
BTW the stuff you are complaining about in T1 was actually cutting edge for it's time. While the scene in the gif and the green screen behind the car just after this would have looked dated even 20 years before T2.
squidhands
Member
It's in the Director's Cut, automatically making it that much worse.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
The theatrical version is the director's cut. That is from the special extended edition.
I like them both and they both serve their own purpose. One of the better duologies out there.
What I liked about T1: grittiness, thoughtfulness, takes it's time, then goes boom.
T2: We've already set up the universe in T1, so we can go straight to more action. The more thoughtful and slower scenes ended up on the cutting room floor. Probably one of the few movies where everyone knows about the cut scenes and mentally stitches them into the movie while watching it.
If they had been retained in the theater release and the home video versions, T2 would've probably been viewed as closer in tone to T1.
T2's biggest crime is that it's one of the softer Rs in history and probably would be rated PG-13 today.
T1's biggest crime is the literal deus ex machina.
I wonder if Cameron would ever be interested in re-doing scenes with CGI in T2 and re-releasing to theaters. I'm mostly thinking of sandbag T-1000 here, not touching any of the actual original CGI shots.
What I liked about T1: grittiness, thoughtfulness, takes it's time, then goes boom.
T2: We've already set up the universe in T1, so we can go straight to more action. The more thoughtful and slower scenes ended up on the cutting room floor. Probably one of the few movies where everyone knows about the cut scenes and mentally stitches them into the movie while watching it.
If they had been retained in the theater release and the home video versions, T2 would've probably been viewed as closer in tone to T1.
T2's biggest crime is that it's one of the softer Rs in history and probably would be rated PG-13 today.
T1's biggest crime is the literal deus ex machina.
I wonder if Cameron would ever be interested in re-doing scenes with CGI in T2 and re-releasing to theaters. I'm mostly thinking of sandbag T-1000 here, not touching any of the actual original CGI shots.
Like Reese says, "I didn't build the fucking thing!!!"
Here, check out this video (also dat Cameron recycling "..tactically dangerous...")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Is8_xH_2hLo
The plot changes so that the objective is to blow up Cyberdyne. However the T-800 is hot on their trail and ruins the party and they use the pipe-bombs against him instead. It's amazing what a few additional scenes can do.
Mortimer Brewster
Member
In terms of violence and gore its a very soft R but Linda Hamilton drops enough F bombs in the movie to ensure even today it would likely get an R. But it certainly does lack the raw brutality of the original.
AHA-Lambda
Member
I like them equally.
Stop motion was not cutting edge in 1984
Yeah today they probably would have had her say "Shit!" and left two of the F-Bombs in.
Because that's literally what a PG-13 movie is allowed. You get a budget of up to two Fucks. A third Fuck makes you get an automatic R.
I H8 Memes
Member
I was talking about the practical models for the T-800 exposed eye scene and arm scene. That was just about as good as something like that was going to look in 1984. Not quite as good as the models in The Thing which came out 2 years before, but pretty damn good for it's time.
Nappuccino
Member
And he didn't have to kickstart it either.
JimtotheHum
Member
It's been awhile since I have watched either, but overall I prefer T1. That said, I remember seeing T2 in the theater and thinking this is one of the best things I had ever seen as a kid.
I remember watching T1 as a kid for the first time, and being all :O :O when the two detectives get slaughtered by the Terminator. They were important characters, I expected that they would help Kyles and Sarah but no,Terminator hits one with about 20 bullets and then wounds and shotguns the other one twice.
Same thing when Reese was killed. As a kid, it blew my mind to see 'the good guys' die. It really made The Terminator super extreme scary
Same thing when Reese was killed. As a kid, it blew my mind to see 'the good guys' die. It really made The Terminator super extreme scary
I would have loved a scene at the end of T2 where some scientiist is searching through the rubble at Cyberdyne and finds pieces of the microprocessor still intact, thus making all their actions inconsequential. You can't change the future, you just rearrange it. I love cynical endings so maybe I'm biased, but it would have made the movie more interesting. It's still a god tier action movie though.
Can a Terminator without the organic parts speak? I don't think they ever showed that in any of the films/series. Same with running.
I guess parts of those reasons is that they know the maskerade is gone so there's no need to pretend along with it the fact that it might have been a little goofy.
In fact; It's interesting how different they act without the cover. I guess partly to do with SFX reasons.
I guess parts of those reasons is that they know the maskerade is gone so there's no need to pretend along with it the fact that it might have been a little goofy.
In fact; It's interesting how different they act without the cover. I guess partly to do with SFX reasons.
T-800 is never shown running, but the T-1000 chased the car on foot in the parking garage (I remember the actor had to pull off that scene without looking like he was breathing heavily from the text commentary)
They do act differently. I think it's to show that to infiltrate human camps and imitate them, they do gain a bit of humanity. When they're in robot form, they're cold, calculated, and patient.
You can even see the progress in the T-1000, although I'm not sure it was intentional on Cameron's part. T1000's kills become less brutal the more people he acquires. To the point that by the time he takes over the helicopter, he gives the pilot a chance to live, and by the end of the movie, he doesn't kill Sarah Connor even though he had her dead to rights (if you believe his words). The only thing left of his robot side is his directive to kill John. He's losing control of his robot side, melding with everything he touches.
Also, another neat tidbit about T2: T-1000 assimilates people that John would have normally viewed as his protectors in society. A foster mom, a security guard, a cop, and finally his actual mom. The robot sent to save him is a biker, an outlaw, a rogue, someone who normally would be viewed as a danger to John. The movie is actually set up to play with this idea in the mall, where John is between the 800 and the 1000 and seems he thinks the 800 is going to kill him and the cop will save him. It probably would have more impact if the movie had been advertised with the 800's role being more vague, but it's there.
They do act differently. I think it's to show that to infiltrate human camps and imitate them, they do gain a bit of humanity. When they're in robot form, they're cold, calculated, and patient.
You can even see the progress in the T-1000, although I'm not sure it was intentional on Cameron's part. T1000's kills become less brutal the more people he acquires. To the point that by the time he takes over the helicopter, he gives the pilot a chance to live, and by the end of the movie, he doesn't kill Sarah Connor even though he had her dead to rights (if you believe his words). The only thing left of his robot side is his directive to kill John. He's losing control of his robot side, melding with everything he touches.
Also, another neat tidbit about T2: T-1000 assimilates people that John would have normally viewed as his protectors in society. A foster mom, a security guard, a cop, and finally his actual mom. The robot sent to save him is a biker, an outlaw, a rogue, someone who normally would be viewed as a danger to John. The movie is actually set up to play with this idea in the mall, where John is between the 800 and the 1000 and seems he thinks the 800 is going to kill him and the cop will save him. It probably would have more impact if the movie had been advertised with the 800's role being more vague, but it's there.
Moon Boots
Banned
T1 is a better genre movie, certainly, but if you look at a work of art as something that communicates, one that engages large issues in a significant, intelligent way, I think it'd be damn tough to argue T1 as the superior work of art. T2 is proof that the blockbuster form can still lead to very good art, even with the moments of cheese (which are overstated by most). No matter how much more one might like the "feel" of T1, there's more to a film, and things like the trite love story and underdeveloped characters stand out starkly.
Excellent post.
Bucket Mouse
Member
This thread has reminded me that I need to get both of these films on Blu-ray.
What is the best (in terms of image quality/special features) version for each respective film? So far I'm eyeing up The Terminator Remastered and T2: Skynet Edition.
What is the best (in terms of image quality/special features) version for each respective film? So far I'm eyeing up The Terminator Remastered and T2: Skynet Edition.
sketchsanchez
Member
I need to see the movie again to see if it plays out that way but is any of that true for john? He's a delinquent, he was running aeay from the cop, he hates his foster parents and, at that point, hated his mother too.
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