That game had an abundance of design flaws but it tried some new things and was sometimes fun in its own way.
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Icons: Combat Arena (Smash Melee clone by makers of Project M) Gameplay Trailer
- Thread starter Slamtastic
- Start date
That game had an abundance of design flaws but it tried some new things and was sometimes fun in its own way.
Brawl also added input buffering, meteor canceling to all meteor smashes, and jab locking(as opposed to jab resets).
Smash 4 did a lot of balancing for existing mechanics. For example the jab locking is more dependent on which move you use to lock, and cannot be done infinitely like in Brawl. It also re-introduced things from before Brawl like hitstun and pivoting.
Also I'd hardly call edge trumping a lazy removal of edge hogging. It was a good way to balance the ledge instead of it being broken like it was in the other games. You can't refresh your ledge immunity, which solves the "ledge grab limit" that several melee players are calling for.
stan423321
Member
That's sort of way too close to Smash Bros. given they reportedly are annoyed with everyone calling them a Smash clone instead of platform fighter. (Note: I think that two terms are not exactly overlapping.)
Regardless the title could have been better for sure... but it's sort of like Atari Jaguar, it could have been a better system if it would have been different. It's an alright attempt at "League of Legends"-like title which establishes game's word for playable characters, the thing is we - well, I - don't seem to want this style of marketing.
That said, I've had a few Smash clone ideas, and the level of negativity of reactions to this is certainly concerning.
???
Every Smash sequel has done alterations of move properties from the last game.
I don't know much about marketing, but the reveal trailer is giving out a clear message of "this is a smash bros clone".
let's take rivals of aether for instence and their first trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpxIc5f7lbc
It only introduces 2 characters at the time. The 2 characters look nothing like something we've seen on smash, but we get a feeling that it will be like smash because of the platform and the flames when someoen gets KOed. So what do people think when they see that "Oh, this looks a lot like smash, but the characters are nothing like something I've seen before". I am not saying only use 100% unique movesets or anything. But try to push what's different about your products and not "this is basically smash". I am no game developer and how it works, but I feel like having less characters shown in the reveal trailer, but them being more polished and more unique would've helped the image of the game much more. Again, I am no expert, but that's what I think they should've done. You only get ONE first impression, and that's the thing people will remember you by unfortunatly.
LordKasual
Banned
...Huh? I don't know what you're getting at, but there there's a difference between that and adding entire new gameplay features that didn't previously exist. I'm calling Brawl and Smash 4's seemingly drastic changes "emergent" because very little of the actual coding needed to be changed in order to achieve those effects, just a few constant and variable tweaks.
Also, perfect shielding was not in SSB64, that was another Melee addition.
I assume you're talking about special cancels? Yeah that was in Melee too, and you've definitely seen it if you've watched a Fox, Falco, or Samus play. So was auto-cancelling. Unlimited airdodging happened at the expense of directional air dodge.
L-cancelling was what was removed in Brawl, though it still had special cancelling. Special Canceling was unfortunately removed in Smash 4, just to spite Falco players probably. And also because Fuck Samus
So did melee??? The biggest difference in the clones between Melee and Brawl is that in Brawl they were actually given new animations, but their playstyles didn't actually change all that much. Hell, Dr. Mario in Smash 4 is nearly identical to the Melee one. Sheik has 2 brand new moves yet plays nearly identically to how she did in Melee
I have no idea what "alternate ranged grab holding" is, but i'm pretty sure whatever you're referring to has existed since Melee because almost everything has, which is my entire point.
Rage is new, people hate it in smash 4 because it's trash, but we hate it in every other game too. Ask anyone who played Tekken 6.
And again, moveset differences have existed since Melee, it was the first game to have clones.
And then Brawl added amazing sound effects, which Smash 4 unfortunately removed yet again. But none of that has anything to do with what i was talking about.
Anyway the point is that the franchise hasn't actually added anything significant since Melee.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
There wasn't much in 64 to Melee and Melee to Brawl (outside of nerfs) as far as I recall. The existing functions of the original 12 were the same in Melee.
My point was 64 didn't really feel like it could stretch itself, arguably you could see it as a "tech demo" for Smash.
pretty sure I had that effect even in 64, even had stuff like bouncing off attacks if you timed your block
that was L cancelling and exploiting a mechanic though (like in Samus's case, the bombs). I'm talking about stuff like "normal into special into special" kind of cancels like say, Wolf had. I don't really test it in 4 though.
Wasn't ganondorf much more slower in Brawl onwards, same with Falco, and with different attacks too rather than copypaste?
Also I do agree with your point in 4 having really crappier clones.
I forgot the name, basically tether grab priority.
Also there's actually an inverse of rage, I think it's in ArcSys games, where rather than dealing more damage, the enemy receives less damage.
was talking about the original 12, they never really did change until Brawl and even then just partially.
Yeah sadly this is true too.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Not saying I think Icons will be a big hit, but it is pre-alpha. The developers are still deciding whether or how certain mechanics could/should be implemented. And they can't really finalize other things like movesets and balance until they have the mechanics nailed down. It's kind of early to make a call one way or the other.
Also applies to visuals, the game has no shadows and only a few placeholder effects. And animations will probably be polished once movesets are finalized, doesn't make a lot of sense to put tons of hours into soothing out and polishing animations that you just end up scrapping because the moves get changed.
I think the biggest upside Icons has is the way they are approaching the mechanics. It seems like the objective is to design something that maintains the flow of Melee while being a bit more simple to pick up.
LordKasual
Banned
???
The changes from the original 12 was GREATEST from 64 to Melee, they all got multiple new grabs, skills, properties and techniques simply by consequence of the new engine.
What does this even mean?? The only reason you feel this way is because melee caused so many lasting changes to the game that it feels bare bones by comparison.
Nothing about Smash 64 felt like a "tech demo" when it was the only smash game avaliable.
It didn't. Projectiles probably bounced off shields but that had nothing to do with your timing.
No, that was special cancelling, which happened automatically and made no difference whether you pressed the shield button or not. Falco could even do this in Brawl.
And "normal into special into special" isn't a cancel, that's called a combo. Every character in every game had this, including Brawl. Wolf's is just an example thats really obvious.
Yeah, but seeing as he has the same moves and plays the same way, you aren't really talking about anything significant here.
The only character I can think of who has gotten real significant changes since conception would be Bowser. His Smash 4 incarnation is basically a different character.
Ganondorf is actually the worst example of all because he hasn't been drastically changed and is like never a "brawler" in any Zelda game.
I still have absolutely no idea what you're talking about or what "tether grab priority" is referring to.
Are you talking about pivot grabbing? Most character's pivot grabs have more range than otherwise.
In which case, yes lol that too was also added in Melee.
That's GUTS, it's not the same thing. It's actually different between characters. It's one of the ways the game balances its HP pools. Rage in Smash 4 is only dependent on your damage % and caps off the same, regardless of which character you're playing. And it isn't particularly balanced according to anything either.
If Rage was actually tailored to specific characters in different ways, it actually might have been a pretty decent mechanic for balancing the roster out. Say, if Zelda reached max rage faster than the other characters to compensate for her weight and speed. Or if Ganondorf had a rage % that capped much higher than other characters. Or if some characters like Shiek start off stronger than usual and actually get weaker as they take damage.
At that point it wouldn't have been a "comeback mechanic" and would have just been a balancing factor of the game to encourage specific playstyles and give more personality to the cast.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I think you misread my post. The existing movest of the existing characters, in this case the original 12, I mean. Basically Mario's fireball remained unchanged to this day. I think only Pikachu got a different alteration (the effect of Thunder now knocking downwards).
Yeah, but I was simply making a comparison towards Melee as I'm saying. Essentially I'm supporting your claim.
Weird, pretty sure it was. Even restored shield to full health and had a distinct shield sfx.
Huh, I guess the L button was just a placebo then lolNo, that was special cancelling, which happened automatically and made no difference whether you pressed the shield button or not. Falco could even do this in Brawl.
no I get combos, I'm talking about canceling an attack animation towards another like in fighting games. Even back in 64 there's still some wind up time you have to wait before connecting an attack unless you cancel with L but in Brawl it doesn't have that.
While not much I think his ground, non smash As were different. Also Falco got a huge alteration.
Though yeah Ganondorf needs an overhaul.
I still have absolutely no idea what you're talking about or what "tether grab priority" is referring to.
Are you talking about pivot grabbing? Most character's pivot grabs have more range than otherwise.
In which case, yes lol that too was also added in Melee.
no no no it's not the "attack" grab but a "ledge" grab. I remember seeing it in the daily pics even.
Zelda at this point is unsalvageable that she might as well be overhauled.
With that said I'd argue changing when Rage should activate should probably enough. I still don't get much of the hate though since from the matches I've seen it still boils down to who could knock out faster.
Are you talking about how characters with tether grabs like Link and Samus can tether the ledge while someone else is holding it, into a ledge trump? I wanna say I'm knowledgeable enough about the game (on my town's PR and commentated some smaller regionals before) and that's the only thing I can think of that you're talking about lol.
Also just wanna say I agree w Lord Kasual. Melee is the bomb and gets a bad rap on here. PM is by far the best one imo though.
Also just wanna say I agree w Lord Kasual. Melee is the bomb and gets a bad rap on here. PM is by far the best one imo though.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Nah Melee doesn't get a bad rep, just its folks. Which I agree. But don't worry I think Smash fanbase in general is garbage despite liking the game.
And basically what happens is both character tether ledge but something happens.
Are you talking about buffering?
Buffering is when you enter your next attack's inputs around 4 frames before your current attack ends. This makes so the next attack comes out on the first available frame.
My biggest problem with Melee is that it doesn't have this, and I also think it's kind of bullshit that PM's input buffer is there, lowered from Brawl, and STILL banned from tournaments. The fact that you have to do everything frame perfect is super dumb imo.
LordKasual
Banned
Oh. If you're talking about their overall archetype then yeah, i guess it hasn't changed very much since 64. A few minor changes here and there (Fox's laser no longer stuns, ect) but the majority of the changes to the characters have been the way the game itself is played due to the changes to the engine.
Yeah, you're definitely thinking of powershielding. In Melee the effect was less pronounced, but Brawl is when they added that distinct "CHINK" sound effect. But this did not happen in 64.
It was. Special cancelling simply happened if you used an aerial special while falling and touched the ground, it would cancel the animation.
L-Cancelling actually only worked on normal aerial attacks, specials weren't included. This was removed in Brawl, and so only auto-cancelling was left.
Nothing in smash actually works like this outside of a few neutral A strings. Traditionally, the only real way to interrupt attack animations in Smash was by either L-cancelling, Auto-cancelling, or Special cancelling. If you manage to hit an opponent with an aerial, you could land, which would cancel the animation and allow you to instantly hit them again.
All avenues to doing this have been removed in Smash 4, except for autocancelling, which is hard-programmed and damn near 100% resulting in the current tier lists (all the best characters have naturally low landing lag values).
You must be taking about tether recoveries then?
Yep. Also in Melee.
In fact, in Melee you could do this to any wall in the game, not just ledges.
Zelda's current state is mostly the result of the engine changes to smash 4. Her landing lag is horrible, they nerfed her teleport for no reason, and her offense has been completely destroyed thanks to Smash 4 overbuffing shields and removing shieldpush from the game.
Zero was just killed at 47% by a raged Bayonetta in EVO Grand Finals.
The mechanic's implementation is just bad, really
The only reason i can imagine PM would ban buffering in tournaments is because it's a match-wide change, and some players might be accustomed to not having a buffer at all, which would be an unfair disadvantage for them. So they just went with the Melee default of no buffer at all.
I personally hate games without buffers myself.
Since it doesn't look like it was mentioned yet, they did an AMA on r/Smashbros the day after the first trailer. (Link Here), (Recap Here). In addition, they also did a technical AMA in the community discord. (Recap here).
In regards to the thread title itself, this tweet from one of the developers is worth looking at.
In regards to the thread title itself, this tweet from one of the developers is worth looking at.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah I forgot about Fox's too. I remember in 64 with it being a meaty projectile than a continuous zap. But other than those they remain generally the same throughout, that I'm surprised they never tweaked the existing moves.
That explains it then.
I guess I played Wolf so much that I thought he was doing some things that were universal.
God I miss him.
You must be taking about tether recoveries then?
Yep. Also in Melee.
Not talking about tether recovery in itself, in 4 there was this pic of the day that talks about tether recovery priorities, and the rules regarding edgegrabbing with it. Forgot what it entailed since I rarely pick characters with tether recoveries.
technically they buffed her offenses (Din's Fire and Farore's Wind deal more kb and damage) but they weren't compensated for anything else and she was nerfed for mobility. Like I said at this point she should really be overhauled.
Eh personally I see it more as a fitting win especially on how he shittalked Bayonetta before.
