GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
If it makes you feel better, I chortled.
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Idea of Healthy Obesity Is Tested
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If it makes you feel better, I chortled.
I, of course, will never insult or make fun of an overweight or obese person, but I also see no need to cater to that demographic in any significant way (in the "thin privilege" blog linked above, the author bemoans a supermarket not having enough space between aisles).
Not only is it unhealthy for the person, it negatively affects healthcare costs for everyone. It's not a good state, and shouldn't be "accepted".
Not only is it unhealthy for the person, it negatively affects healthcare costs for everyone. It's not a good state, and shouldn't be "accepted".
User 250141
Banned
It's sad that this is something that still has to be stated :\
John Kowalski
Banned
But that's not really the case. Haven't you ever heard the expression "earning the privilege"? You aren't privileged to be white and straight, you're privileged because you are white and straight. Privilege has no bearing on the permanence or impermanence of your being white and straight, nor with the chances of you being white and straight.
What about class privilege? Can't the ultra rich stop being ultra rich? They can, and when they do, they will lose their privileged position. Some LGBT members who have, in the becoming of such, lost privilege, can still lie to their own benefit, can't they? And in that lie they would expose the flimsy and hypocritical nature of privilege as a means for social inequality.
Devolution
Member
Would be nice if a healthy initiative of some sort was started to incentivize the purchase of less crap and more "healthy" foods but "health" in this country is more about shaming the individual and a for profit money machine.
And grains being the only super cheap option.
A whole lotta shamin' goin' on.
Crag Dweller
aka kindbudmaster
I just don't view people like that. Like you said, it is what it is. If someone is happy being fat, that's cool it doesn't bother me. I don't respect a person any less based solely on their weight. You won't find a shoulder to cry on if you want to complain about being fat though.
It's like the Republican solution to poverty: shame the poor for being poor. Tell them to take responsibility and care for their lives!
User 73706
Banned
Is the "technically" really necessary here?
Not even remotley the same thing.
Social stigma is the best way to get people to avoid doing things as long as it can be managed enough to not be too destructive. Just look at women with their body image, men with their mental discipline, and people as a whole with shaming racism. It stops it.
John Kowalski
Banned
Dictatorships are also the quickest and most efficient way to enforce government reforms.
Not to mention the fact that even with the heavy and constant stigmatization that already exists, obesity is still a problem. Isn't that a very clear sign that stigmatization isn't working at all?
Societal and market forces played a large role in getting us fat, and so societal and market forces should be part of the solution. When you keep it on the individual level many are just swimming upstream.
Crag Dweller
aka kindbudmaster
What costs would be lowered if there wasn't any fat people? And what group should we target next as the ones that are keeping cost high? People that don't exercise regularly? Then the people who drink alcohol?
There is. There's a recent study into how much food and drinks have 'grown' in size over the last 20 years. Some of the findings include:
- 20 years ago, the average bagel had 140 calories. Today, the average bagel has 350 calories.
- 20 years ago, the average cup of coffee had 45 calories (whole milk+sugar). Today, the average cup of coffee has 350 calories (steamed whole milk+mocha syrup).
- 20 years ago, the average soda bottle contained 82 calories. Today, the average soda bottle contains 250 calories.
It's absolutely a problem of values, and unfortunately, it takes a tremendous amount of work to devalue things that are accepted as being valuable.
It should, and probably will eventually, be handled exactly like smoking. Heavy tax on certain kinds of food including soda and fast food. Use the money raised to subsidize price cuts in healthier options, and public education programs.
Worked pretty damn well to reduce smoking rates. People will cry about government intrusion, but it works in this case. I think we'll see this over the next decade.
gothamghost
Member
My Dad (a smoker) has been saying this for years. He bet me a few years ago that by the year 2020 there would be a tax on soda and fast food. I thought he was crazy at the time but I am not so sure anymore.
Why yes they are.
But what would you prefer over social values being what people judge each other on? Lets take the topic of racism, since that is by far one of our largest social stigmas. How do we stop racism if not through having "popular views" of which people outside are shamed into coming back into that popular view.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/04/30/obesity-now-costs-americans-more-in-healthcare-costs-than-smoking/
The government encourages and discourages all sorts of behavior via taxation: marriage, having kids, taxes on tobacco, soda, fast food, etc.
In a society where you are free to do as you please, most people are going to please themselves until they die. Whether it be by food, by sex, or by anything else. As long as the restraint of money is negligible (which it is made easier by fast food), people will opt for the easiest and tastiest route.
Preparing food takes time, planning, and can be costlier to purchase individual ingredients to make a meal that you only eat once. Now granted, if you are living alone or with only your SO, it can be easier, but still. Packaged foods are the source of ignorance towards what to eat to better yourself. Diet is a huge part of weight.
Devolution
Member
When you look at the cross section of corporations that benefit from people eating larger and more unhealthy portions and our attitude of "just fix yourself", it's pretty contradictory and nowhere near creating a solution. HFCS, subsidies, health insurance, we aren't sending the message that health matters where it should matter most. It only matters when we want to spout off about how fat and lazy people are. If people took the time out to really care about anything there would be more pressure to drive down the costs of truly healthy foods including meat rather than have to buy smaller amounts and substitute heavier grains to fill a person up, better health care, subsidized gym memberships, walk/workout breaks in the day for workers (especially those with sedentary jobs) etc. Where's the criticism towards the government, corporations and work places? That's where the change needs to happen. It has to be built into the general lifestyle so that individuals have as little obstacles as possible to DOING it.
That's not entirely true.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Health food subsidies would be interesting, but it'd probably be undermined at the first opportunity.
Harry Dresden
Member
And then what happens to all the farmers who don't grow anything but corn when the market on corn syrup dries up?
gothamghost
Member
They grow something else?
Devolution
Member
Health food subsidies would be awesome but who profits? I mean how long are we going to pretend that the obesity problem is merely one of people deciding to eat more and not exercising. As if the 50s saw a lot of "exercising." It's about sugar, advertising, lifestyle changes and available cheap foods that meet caloric intake for a person.
Kano on the Phone
Member
What should have happened before we started paying them.
This is not compatible with the aggregate of available evidence. Social encouragement has shown to be considerably better at nurturing objectively beneficial behaviors than social stigma has based on a variety of studies.
http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2012/carrots-not-sticks-motivate-workers/
http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1022&context=tpr
http://galeon.com/aprendizajeucc/BaumBehaviorism.pdf
This is without considering the fact that social stigma is cruel; that is, even if it were shown to be slightly more effective, it still may be a far inferior option because it can make people feel sad and unhappy in the process.
Harry Dresden
Member
I must be very very lucky. I am 6'5" and scale in at 300 lbs and wear a size 15 shoe. I am pretty strong, but don't work out that often.
I think of myself as heavy, and its a constant battle with my weight. The lowest I've ever been is 270lbs. and the highest is 320lbs.
But even at my highest I have never had problems getting up, jogging or walking, wiping my ass, showering, having sex on top. I've never waddled, or had back sweat, I don't have man-boobs. and my second chin doesn't swell out like a frog.
So it boggles my mind sometimes.
I think of myself as heavy, and its a constant battle with my weight. The lowest I've ever been is 270lbs. and the highest is 320lbs.
But even at my highest I have never had problems getting up, jogging or walking, wiping my ass, showering, having sex on top. I've never waddled, or had back sweat, I don't have man-boobs. and my second chin doesn't swell out like a frog.
So it boggles my mind sometimes.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
I guess where I was going with it is that I don't know how else you'd incentivize healthier habits, even though I know full well the problems with even trying to do it. You can't exactly give people breaks on their income tax for their BMI, and "sin taxes" on sweets would be undermined just as quickly as the health food subsidies.
Devolution
Member
You'd incentivize them at the very least by making them more accessible. Anyone pretending that healthy alternatives, gyms and the like are easily accessible monetarily or otherwise is kidding themselves.
There are many contributing factors to rising obesity in most developed/western countries.
Chief among them all, the intake of FAR more calories daily, than the body actually needs. People are eating more food daily, than ever before. It's simple science, you're eating more calories than your body can burn.
Now there are other factors. The modern sedentary lifestyle of the west, the decline in people having the ability to cook their own food, an increase in processed food consumption, and a decline in daily physical activity and exercise.
People drive to work, sit in an office, drive home, eat and sleep. Few have time to go to the gym, work out. More and more people don't have the ability to cook, many eat out, to the point where people are eating at fast food joints or restaurants daily or weekly.
More and more are eating processed and fatty foods. It may seem 'cheap' or 'easy' to come home and microwave a burrito or chicken nuggets, but you need to look at the high number of calories, sodium and fat as well.
Go see a doctor or a dietician/nutritionist, have them measure your body fat with calipers, test your blood pressure, check your weight and BMI, ask them how many calories you need to consume. Now, get a food scale, use a site like myfitnesspal, and calculate just how many calories you eat in a day.
Very few individuals actually suffer from actual glandular problems or with their thyroids. The overwhelming majority are just eating too much and not being able to exercise or stay active.
Chief among them all, the intake of FAR more calories daily, than the body actually needs. People are eating more food daily, than ever before. It's simple science, you're eating more calories than your body can burn.
Now there are other factors. The modern sedentary lifestyle of the west, the decline in people having the ability to cook their own food, an increase in processed food consumption, and a decline in daily physical activity and exercise.
People drive to work, sit in an office, drive home, eat and sleep. Few have time to go to the gym, work out. More and more people don't have the ability to cook, many eat out, to the point where people are eating at fast food joints or restaurants daily or weekly.
More and more are eating processed and fatty foods. It may seem 'cheap' or 'easy' to come home and microwave a burrito or chicken nuggets, but you need to look at the high number of calories, sodium and fat as well.
Go see a doctor or a dietician/nutritionist, have them measure your body fat with calipers, test your blood pressure, check your weight and BMI, ask them how many calories you need to consume. Now, get a food scale, use a site like myfitnesspal, and calculate just how many calories you eat in a day.
Very few individuals actually suffer from actual glandular problems or with their thyroids. The overwhelming majority are just eating too much and not being able to exercise or stay active.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
There might be a little something to this.
Just as there are characteristics we find attractive in some individuals, there are doubtlessly characteristics we find unattractive - if not repulsive - in other individuals.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
The time factor is a big one. I'm a relatively active person. I run the dog. I go to the gym/martial arts classes. But, on the days where I have to drive to another part of the city and spend 2~3 hours in traffic, the gym time is the first thing to go. I can't imagine how little time I'd have if I had to run a couple of kids around like a lot of other folks my age do.
Devolution
Member
Also how much do we incentivize using cars over anything else? Yeah. We care so much about health bikers get pissed on and transit takes a hit everywhere every year now.
Yep, the type of things you buy to keep yourself healthy (especially if you go the health bar/ energy bar route) cost way way more than basic junk food out of the freezer, which is ridiculous. The cost ratio of healthy and/or supportive diet foods is out of wack compared to foods that are extremely bad for you (see: $10 50-count mini-Burritos in the freezer section)
Harry Dresden
Member
Eating Fat doesn't make you fat.
Sugar makes you fat. More specifically refined sugar and corn syrup. If you chug soda and fruit juice all day you're going to be fat.
My weakness is sweets, and she is a harsh mistress. It is a constant battle that even after not eating refined sugar for over two months now I still get cravings.
Sugar makes you fat. More specifically refined sugar and corn syrup. If you chug soda and fruit juice all day you're going to be fat.
My weakness is sweets, and she is a harsh mistress. It is a constant battle that even after not eating refined sugar for over two months now I still get cravings.
Another consideration is the gym itself.
If I were a lower or middle class person in 1950, I probably worked in a job that still required a considerable amount of manual labor. As a lower or middle class person today, there are much higher odds that my job is highly sedentary.
This means that many people in 1950 didn't need to go to the gym to get an hour's exercise a day -- they got it at work. In effect, this means that modern workers with highly sedentary jobs have to add an extra hour on to work every day to get exercise that their grandparents wouldn't have likely needed to worry about.
All of this ignores the highly exceptional cases, of course. At the extreme, people who considerably overeat will be fat even with a fairly active job. At the other extreme, people who want to be exceptionally fit (and not just "not fat") will need to work out even with a job that keeps them fairly active. Most people fall in between these extremes, however.
If I were a lower or middle class person in 1950, I probably worked in a job that still required a considerable amount of manual labor. As a lower or middle class person today, there are much higher odds that my job is highly sedentary.
This means that many people in 1950 didn't need to go to the gym to get an hour's exercise a day -- they got it at work. In effect, this means that modern workers with highly sedentary jobs have to add an extra hour on to work every day to get exercise that their grandparents wouldn't have likely needed to worry about.
All of this ignores the highly exceptional cases, of course. At the extreme, people who considerably overeat will be fat even with a fairly active job. At the other extreme, people who want to be exceptionally fit (and not just "not fat") will need to work out even with a job that keeps them fairly active. Most people fall in between these extremes, however.
Those people that have extremely hectic lifestyles and/or are more prone to laziness think about that, and shudder to think that they have to dedicate part of their time to do that when they just want to relax. Instead of realizing that working out can be relaxing in itself.
Exactly. When a trend is happening simultaneously to millions of people, globally, it is more than just the individual at play here. People of course have individual responsibility, and if they put in the work they can overcome all of this. But it's not laziness at play here. It's broad, sociological factors that are affecting millions of people at the same time.
We could list hundreds of them if we wanted I'm sure.
1) Poor city planning limiting walking
2) Longer work hours with less time off
3) Rise of technology, television, internet, video games
4) Decreasing wages
5) Rising cost of food, housing, health insurance, everything
6) More sophisticated, intrusive, frequent, advertising designed using sophisticated psychological research
7) Changes in the content of food driven by corporate interests (decreasing cost of production/ mass production / shipping / storage, advancements in addiction/ craving creation in food products, higher dense caloric content).
8) Decrease in school funding for sports, recess, after school programs
9) Changes in media tone instilling fear about local communities leading to cultural shift with parents overprotecting their kids, letting the play outside independently less than in the past
10) Decreases in jobs requiring physical work, increases in jobs requiring long periods of sitting.
11) Cheap cost of mass producing unhealthy food, ability to keep it on shelves for long periods of time without deterioration
12) Rise of organic market inflating prices
13) Urban food deserts
14) Corporate consolidation of farming, death of the local farm
15) Broken homes, more single parents, less cooking, less culture of food education / cooking education
We can probably keep going indefinitely. But I think the key is to really look at the issue of obesity sociologically when we try to create policy changes. When you're talking personal motivation and individual cases, its okay to talk about motivation/laziness/personal responsibility.
Devolution
Member
I think it'd be neat to subsidize sports programs too. Exercise is had and it can be much more fun for individuals.
God Dayumm
Banned
Yo! What is your diet?
Sure, and work can be fun for some people. Operating under the assumption that everyone should love their jobs, kids should enjoy learning/homework, and that everyone should find exercise relaxing is clearly not realistic or pragmatic as a solution.
CornBurrito
Member
I never said they got fat by today's standards. But simply being able to stuff your face and put on weight easily would have been useful. And I'd imagine hunter gatherers wouldn't have enough food or enough time to laze around in order for that trait to make them fat.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
I really want to figure out a safe way to use an iPad and compose emails while walking on a treadmill. Unfortunately, all the speaking apps I've found tend to get thrown off by the huffing and puffing and you end up taking your "eyes off the road" to make sure that it's not typing some perversities. I also do a lot of walking meetings.
Indeed, which is why offering multiple routes to combat obesity is needed, through more promotion of healthy alternatives, driving the costs of healthy foods down, and removing much of the unhealthy additives to current foods so that food in general overall is healthier. There will still be unhealthy snacks, but things like the FDA banning all artificial trans fats is a good step.
The no time to work out excuse is BS too.
Wake up and so some body work outs. Some High Intensity Interval Training stuff. Or do it before you go to sleep.
If you truly are too busy to exercise then eat to reflect that. If you truly have no time to get active and are sedentary all day then the diet needs to reflect that. If you aren't burning the calories don't intake them.
Wake up and so some body work outs. Some High Intensity Interval Training stuff. Or do it before you go to sleep.
If you truly are too busy to exercise then eat to reflect that. If you truly have no time to get active and are sedentary all day then the diet needs to reflect that. If you aren't burning the calories don't intake them.
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