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If square teamed with Sega for the Saturn would things be different?
- Thread starter Captain N
- Start date
Y2Kevbug11 said:
Note two things in that article.
1.) Sega of America's control slumped precisely because of what I said -- the 32X debacle. They dug their own grave on that one. And yes, as I said, lack of communication from Japan factored in on that, too, but Sega of America still bungled that device horrifically, and if losing influence was one of the things that came from that fallout, then that still leaves ultimate responsibility with their actions.
2.) Sega of Japan told Kalinske to accelerate the Saturn's launch and get it to market before the PlayStation. All well and good. Sega of Japan did not, however, tell Kalinske to spring it on the public (and on retailers and publishers) in a surprise launch. The Saturnday Sega of America crapped out still would've had the machine on market before the PlayStation, which would have satisfied Japan's request. The launch still would've hurt, and still would've have caused the Saturn to win, but that doesn't mitigate just how much damage the surprise launch did.
Sega of America was just as culpable in these ****ups, despite Tom Kalinske's eagerness to buddy up with the media afterwards to try and repudiate his own role.
Mr_Furious
Member
FFVII releasing on the Saturn would not have made any impact worth noting mainly because both developers and consumers alike were fed up with Sega's bullshit. By the time the Saturn released people were fed up with supporting Sega and their empty promises. Developers were eager to embrace any other hardware that was affordable to make games on at the time and luckily for Sony that's just when they entered the market with the Playstation. Sony was really aggressive with securing developer support and when compared to Sega and Nintendo, the Playstation was the easiest and cheapest to develop for at the time. Even Square saw this which is the reason why they jumped Nintendo's cartridge based ship for Sony's CD land.
A Black Falcon
Member
ethelred said:
That's not really true. The Sega of America-Sega of Japan rivalry had gone on for years by that point; if Sega had been united, there would almost certainly have not been either a 32X or a Saturn, but one product that both branches actually supported and worked on developing. As it was, it was more like each one released their thing, fighting off the other half of their own company to do so, and then was surprised when it failed... that's no way to run a company, and no way to succeed with one. It isn't surprising that with no signficant Japanese support, and coming out so close to the Saturn, the 32X was a miserable failure; meanwhile, it is equally unsurprising that with clueless marketing and strategy and the wrong product, Sega of Japan did miserably trying to sell the Saturn in the US (and all other markets outside of Japan). The whole debacle over Eternal Champions 3 pretty much sums things up...
Sega of America was far from great by 1995, for sure, but at least they had a history of success -- the Genesis was ahead in the US until 1994, after all, when Sega's widening internal divisions and DKC created an opening for Nintedo to take the lead, while the Genesis (Master System) had failed quite thoroughly in Japan (not something Sega of Japan was happy to admit, it seems, and a cause of some of the problems)...
Also, Sega of Japan was responsible for the singular worst decision Sega (or maybe anyone) made in 1995, which was the cessation of most all support for the Genesis/Sega CD/32X. The Genesis particularly was still doing well, despite its age and declining sales. It could have helped prop up Sega for some time to come afterwards, and help with Sega's finances a bit too... killing all of them off on the hope that it would help the Saturn was a major disaster. That wasn't Sega of America's decision, certainly.
ethelred said:
I think A Black Falcon did a pretty good job of hitting on some of the things I might have said if I really disagreed with you, but ultimately I just don't think SOA is more responsible for the Saturn's demise than SOJ is/was. If anything I'd blame them equally, and I certainly wouldn't blame them not bringing over SF3 pt 2 and 3. Though they should have. **** you sega.
Given Nakayama's mandate that it must launch before the Playstation (given in what, March? With the Playstation launching in November?), I'm not really sure what he could have done in any case. Even if they didn't spring it upon consumers-- which I agree is a terrible move-- I think Sega's biggest issue was that software simply wasn't ready. Any other date Kalinske would have picked would have had only marginal benefit for the games, I think. It's obvious that not even Sega was ready; Daytona and Virtua Fighter both needed "reissues" to make them quality titles. At that point, I think three more months (at absolute most) would have been pretty negligible. He should have, though, at least informed developers. I agree, terrible move...but I think he was screwed either way.
Nakayama's decision to end support for the Genesis, though, really ruined them in Europe and I think that falls squarely on his shoulders. Though, to be honest, I don't know if I wouldn't have done the same thing.
What was the actual data capacity of PS CDs? The comment about Saturn CDs having less storage space was interesting. Saturn CDs had a max data area of something like 565MB IIRC...somewhat less than a standard CD-ROM, although I'm not sure what PS disc formats were like.
The old "SOA screwed up by not bringing over all those great Japanese games" is getting pretty tired though. The mass market didn't want those 2D shooters and such, and bringing them over wouldn't have made the Saturn much less of a disaster here than it already was. Ditto for late software like Grandia. The Saturn was absolutely moribund by then.
The old "SOA screwed up by not bringing over all those great Japanese games" is getting pretty tired though. The mass market didn't want those 2D shooters and such, and bringing them over wouldn't have made the Saturn much less of a disaster here than it already was. Ditto for late software like Grandia. The Saturn was absolutely moribund by then.
Y2Kevbug11 said:
Well, that was my whole point. I never attempted to exonerate Sega of Japan -- they were responsible for massive blunders that contributed towards the company's death. I just took issue with the claim that Sega of America was innocent in the whole fiasco. They weren't. Both parts of the company had a huge role to play in its downfall.
Flakster99
Member
A few important questions need to be asked as well.
Would Tobal No.1 have been released on the Saturn with the playable FF7 demo? Imo, the demo was HUGE for awareness that the FF brand, the Squaresoft brand and especially for the Playstation brand. Also, associating FF7 ment Squaresoft was on board with all of it's support. Exclusivity was another HUGE sweepstakes win for the Playstation brand.
Imo, during the 32-bit era, Squaresoft was at their peak in creativity, production, and original content. Certainly would have persuaded me to give the Saturn a more favorable perspective, opinion. I've purchased consoles before for a single game, before and after the Saturn, which tells me.....who knows.
Would Tobal No.1 have been released on the Saturn with the playable FF7 demo? Imo, the demo was HUGE for awareness that the FF brand, the Squaresoft brand and especially for the Playstation brand. Also, associating FF7 ment Squaresoft was on board with all of it's support. Exclusivity was another HUGE sweepstakes win for the Playstation brand.
Imo, during the 32-bit era, Squaresoft was at their peak in creativity, production, and original content. Certainly would have persuaded me to give the Saturn a more favorable perspective, opinion. I've purchased consoles before for a single game, before and after the Saturn, which tells me.....who knows.
I remember I had an old Japanese gaming mag that had a blowout on the N64 pre-launch, and there was shots of what DQ might look like (hey, just like FF amirite?).
I always hear that DQ7 was being worked on for Saturn, but then they decided to change it to the PS1 since they wanted them on the same platform.
If that was true, did Enix believe that Square was originally thinking Saturn for FF?
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I always hear that DQ7 was being worked on for Saturn, but then they decided to change it to the PS1 since they wanted them on the same platform.
If that was true, did Enix believe that Square was originally thinking Saturn for FF?
m
A Black Falcon
Member
Y2Kevbug11 said:
A few more games like Shining Force, Street Fighter (vs. series) stuff, Princess Crown, Grandia, whatever... that would have done absolutely nothing for the success of the Saturn. Sure it would have made the hardcore fans a lot happier, but companies only care about their hardcore fans so much... see things like Nintendo and the GBA, and all those games they didn't release here... when it comes down to it, money matters make the publishing decisions, not anything else, and that's as true now as then.
Now, to answer the original question of this thread, had FFVII been Saturn-exclusive, the thing probably would have won Japan, and most of the big RPGs from the 32/64-bit gen would have been there. Well, that is assuming that Dragon Quest VII had also been on the Saturn with it, which is probably probable. It's harder to determine the US market, though... the Saturn sold absolutely nothing and the PSX crushed it almost immediately. Would that game a while later have saved it because of how good it was? Remember, that was the game that made the series popular in the US in many ways... had it been on an already-niche system, I'm not sure if it'd have had as much impact... perhaps, but it's hard to say. Maybe the weight of Japanese ports coming only on Saturn could have turned things around in the US, despite the very negative public perception of Sega and the
Saturn at the time? Perhaps... I'm not so sure though.
It would be even harder to determine what would have happened with the N64... I mean, of course if Square and Enix had been on the N64, it would have won Japan and done even better in the US (though I do think that the Playstation probably would have done well too either way). But I don't think that Nintendo had any chance of keeping Square as long as they stuck with carts, and they did. Maybe with a CD drive in the N64... but that wasn't going to happen, so Square wasn't going to stay. As for Enix, they wanted to go with the most popular platform I think, and by the time DQ7 was finally ready, that was obviously the PSX.
The problem is, you're then betting it all on one thing, instead of holding on to an old successful thing too... would the PS3 be more successful now if Sony had announced a few months ago or something that all future PS2 development was to be halted and that for now on the company would be PS3-only? I sure don't think so!
As for software, that was a big part of the problem, but the price, recent history of failure (32X and, at least in people's perceptions by this point, Sega CD), and the fact that most people thought that the Playstation was better at 3d, in a climate where everyone wanted 3d and didn't care about 2d games anymore, were also huge issues that the Saturn could not overcome. I don't think a later launch would have helped much at all given all of the other problems Sega had. And that's not mentioning their financial situation or restrictions like 'you can't make Eternal Champions 3 because we don't want any game competing with Virtua Fighter' or whatever it is Sega of America was told... the Saturn was designed for the Japanese market and showed it, but without a good idea of how to sell it overseas, that didn't help them at all anywhere else. Kind of like the the situation with the TurboGrafx in the late '80s, in a way, except with internal discord... but yeah, with the strength of the Playstation right from the start, I don't see how a launch a few months later with a few more games and better marketing would have saved them. They still were going to be beaten by the Playstation. "FFVII" wouldn't mean anything at that point, that was a ways off and and a lot of people were probably still thinking that it'd be on the N64... but I already discussed FFVII.
It is amazing, though, that Sega went from 50% of the US market to near-zero in such a short amount of time.
Looking at the Saturn, though, by the time the Saturn was out it was pretty much already all over for Sega in the US... the 32X had hit their reputation hard, and then when the Saturn came out and bombed, it was done. They couldn't recover from that and never did, not through the whole Saturn and Dreamcast generations. But yes, of course both sides are responsible... it's just that Sega of Japan was making most of the decisions, by the time the Saturn came out in the US, so they get most of the blame, I'd say. But yes, the whole "addons" strategy for the Genesis, and the 32X in particular, was a horrible idea, and one that Sega of America was certainly responsible for to a large degree. But ultimately it was Sega of Japan that made the big decisions...
diddlyD said:
Find that interesting? Don't look at http://www.sega-16.com/features.php , then...
It's not Saturn history, but it is Sega history, and quite a bit of it.lupin23rd said:
The story I remember hearing was that Square talked to Enix and convinced them to support Sony too and not Nintendo and Sega like they originally wanted to... not sure if that's true or not though.
I would dare to say Square was already in bed with Sony before the transition from SNES to PS1. Square was sort of a serigate company in need of a "mother" of sorts. While it was clear that Square & Nintendo were going to part ways (Nintendo dropped stock in Square, Square voiced how dictative/restrictive Nintendo was on them) I think it's also just as clear why they went to Sony. Sony gave them promises behind the scene durring the SNES CD-ROM add-on fiasco and it was obvious they were going in that dirrection 'cos Sony had the money and needed a "way in" to gaming. Sony had a void to fill, much like Nintendo did in lacking in the RPG department and Square used that in making the FF less restricted (thanks to Sony's marketting money) than it would've been on a Nintendo system.
But even before all that, there was never any serious talk of Square working for Sega, not only 'cos Sega couldn't be the proper "mother" serigate, but also 'cos Sega was a proficient RPG games maker in their own right. Having FF would've helped Sega, but it wasn't really a void they needed filled. If they had chosen Sega, Square would've had a less financially stable serigate parent company, less leverage 'cos they'd be making games that wouldn't be filling a Sega void and probably would've even competed dirrectly with the likes of Sega's own RPG's. There, I said it! Square would've never gone to Sega in any way.
But even before all that, there was never any serious talk of Square working for Sega, not only 'cos Sega couldn't be the proper "mother" serigate, but also 'cos Sega was a proficient RPG games maker in their own right. Having FF would've helped Sega, but it wasn't really a void they needed filled. If they had chosen Sega, Square would've had a less financially stable serigate parent company, less leverage 'cos they'd be making games that wouldn't be filling a Sega void and probably would've even competed dirrectly with the likes of Sega's own RPG's. There, I said it! Square would've never gone to Sega in any way.
Really, ABF? If Sony stopped producing the PS2 and PSP, you'd have to assume that at least a few consumers would move to the PS3...perhaps in no significant numbers (due largely to the price...), but it would have a small effect.
With Sega, I think they had to withdraw support for their successful products simply because they didn't have the development resources to support them. Oh, and I'm sure the Japanese division wanted to ditch the genesis asap anyway.
With Sega, I think they had to withdraw support for their successful products simply because they didn't have the development resources to support them. Oh, and I'm sure the Japanese division wanted to ditch the genesis asap anyway.
I would say the whole 32x and losing the M2 tech to panasonic were the 2 major blow for the saturn. A saturn with the M2 would of pissed on the N64 and PS1 graphically and I am sure square would of been on board. It is to bad I really wanted to see a console with the M2 technology.
I don't think Square on the Saturn would have helped too much, that system had a lot of problems, more than a few Final Fantasy games could ever fix. It might have kept the system afloat, maybe, but I don't think it ever would have been a smash hit or anything, certainly not as big as the Playstation became. If it carried over to the Dreamcast though, I think Sega would still be in the hardware business, they might even be on top.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Certainly would in Japan, but no so sure about USA and Europe since Saturn did really bad there and most because one of the reasons of FF VII success on US & Europe was mainly because of the larget marketing distrubution of SCE. Is a question if Sega would gave such massive advertising for FF VII like SCE did. That time, Square USA and Europe were really small and couldn't handle for themself such big advertising without Sega help, so that's a question.
In Japan, it would be a major success since Saturn had already a solid base there but in USA and Europe, only if were distributed by Sega with a very strong marketing distribution.
In Japan, it would be a major success since Saturn had already a solid base there but in USA and Europe, only if were distributed by Sega with a very strong marketing distribution.
A Black Falcon
Member
Y2Kevbug11 said:
That was the whole point... dropping the Megadrive didn't really affect Sega in Japan, because the system hadn't done very well. But in the US and Europe, it crushed them. You really think that PS3 sales increases would make up for the loss of PS2 games if Sony cut off support for the PS2 a few months after the PS3 had launched? I don't. Oh, sure, it would go up a bit, but the impact of that wouldn't be anywhere near as big as the impact of losing all those PS2 sales, I'm sure... the Genesis could have dragged on as long as the SNES did if they had stuck with it, I think. The 32X and Sega CD were lost causes, but the carts...
The fact that in 1997 Majesco was able to release the Genesis 3 says a lot about how much longer Sega could have relied on the system.
TreasureHunterG said:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The Saturn was a total failure in the US and Europe, managing maybe 2 million at most in each region. The PSX sold more in the last couple months of 1995 than the Saturn had in most of the year, I believe... would a game in a popular, but not well known outside of the gamer community, NES/SNES series have had anywhere near the impact it did on a platform in that position? I'm just doubtful.
The advertising budget thing is another good point, relating to Sega's already bad financial situation...
To tell the truth I don't even FFVII could have helped Sega at that time. Some how they would have ****ed it up and I'm not even trying to make a joke. They were ****ing incompetent to the tenth degree. To this day I'm still bitter and cant understand why so many great games never came here or was released in such small quantities you would think they wanted the game to fail. I spent hundreds of dollars on imports thats should have been available here.
Lets just be damn thankful that FFVII went to Sony and not Sega.
Lets just be damn thankful that FFVII went to Sony and not Sega.