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IGN: "Mario and DK haven't evolved since the SNES"
- Thread starter _Alkaline_
- Start date
CoffeeJanitor
Member
I guess we'll just agree to disagree then since out debate really doesn't have anything to do with the thread itself.Boombloxer said:
JimboJones
Member
I just wanna know what kind of games vocab was playing because if he thinks the galaxy games are unoriginal rehashes then the stuff he's been playing has to be amazing.
StevieP said:
Out of curiosity, how? I hadn't played a Mario game in ~5+ years when I picked up SMG I immediately knew just about everything there was to know about the controls from Mario 64.
1. Mario has most of the same controls and abilities he did in the 64 version and the exact same controls to pull them off... most of them have the exact same animation they did (backflip, triple jump, ground pound, etc).
2. If we're talking about what you do, it was almost entirely the same as Mario 64 in that you get transported to a hub and you choose levels from which you earn stars.
I can understand the argument that SMW/SMB and SM64 are vastly different, but I'm not sure I really understand the opposition that SM64 and SMG are that different. There are new bosses, worlds, and some new enemies/power-ups but that's to be expected from a new game regardless of whether it's innovative or not. I think the argument is that the core gameplay is similar.. not that the gravity, power-ups, etc aren't new and different.
Not being innovative (in a sense of overhauling the entirety of the gameplay) isn't a bad thing and I don't understand why everyone is so offended by the argument... Starcraft 2 is the least innovative game I have played in a while and look how popular and respected it is.
Synth_floyd
Banned
Saying that any genre "hasn't evolved" is right in that factually if you look at games since the beginning of video gaming, few genres have really evolved that much. However, as an argument it's more indicative of the speaker who is simply not interested in the genre anymore.
So what IGN is really saying is "We haven't liked SMB or Donkey Kong since the SNES era."
So what IGN is really saying is "We haven't liked SMB or Donkey Kong since the SNES era."
CoffeeJanitor
Member
The controls are similar, sure, but SM64 was much more of an exploration based title. You would go and play the same level 5 times and just look around for stars. There was almost zero real platforming.Kalnos said:
SMG 1/2 on the other hand are very much pure platformers...The obstacle course design is much more evident than in SM64, and the layouts of the worlds generally change a lot depending on which star you pick.
So yeah, the controls/physics are similar (they are definitely refined, going back and playing SM64 showed me that) but everything else is new. Why change the general controls when you already have maybe the best 3D platforming controls available?
(Also, I would argue that the addition of the spin, which allowed the player to make adjustments mid jump, was a big advancement)
I mean, the level design defines these titles. SM64 and Galaxy are completely different because of their differences.
Riposte
Member
Kalnos said:
Innovation is a word that has picked up too much baggage. It has come to mean invention. Originally it was between invention and renovation(essentially "patches"). In turn this seems to have made people group together actual innovation(Starcraft 2) with renovation(Starcraft "2.1") and only invention is seen as a noticeable change(or rather a "worthwhile" change).
walking fiend
Member
Kalnos said:
1. whenever I pick up a shooter I know clicking left mouse button shoots, and it is actually convenient.
(and pointer controls, spins, grabs, etc, weren't in previous games)
2. what?!! since they have a hub the core gameplay is similar?
Diatribe1974
Member
should be corrected in:
"Mario hasn't evolved since the awesomesauce stuff seen in the NES/SNES/N64 era of gaming."
Seriously. I play the hell outta those 3 systems worth of Mario games (even the crappy Dr. Mario bullshit games). But with Sunshine & Galaxy? Snoozefest for me.
"Mario hasn't evolved since the awesomesauce stuff seen in the NES/SNES/N64 era of gaming."
Seriously. I play the hell outta those 3 systems worth of Mario games (even the crappy Dr. Mario bullshit games). But with Sunshine & Galaxy? Snoozefest for me.
kingslunk said:
Six attack buttons, super meters, quarter-circle inputs, and holding back to block aren't core elements of fighting games, yet they're shared between Street Fighter 2 and 3. The basis of that sort of gameplay is practically identical between the two games, and proficiency in one leads to proficiency in the other, up to a certain level. For someone who isn't a fan of the genre, the differences between those two games aren't meaningful. Yet for someone who knows those games, the differences are huge.
Mario 64 and Mario Galaxy share basic objectives, health, and much of their controls. But their levels are designed in a totally different way. Mario 64 is based around a set of objectives in single, large worlds. In Mario Galaxy, nearly every star is in a self-contained level, and each level consists of smaller, clearly-delineated challenges. This, combined with smaller-yet-important changes in powerups, controls, and mechanics (the system of planetoids in Galaxy has a huge effect on basic movement) makes them very distinct from each other in the eyes of a fan of the genre.
It takes a certain kind of blindness for a Street Fighter fan to criticize other companies for rehashing core mechanics as a kind of critique.
Princess Skittles
Prince's's 'Skittle's
I'm constantly amazed (and annoyed) at how dumb political statements (that are ALWAYS from the same "side") are forced into Gaming side threads.kingslunk said:
It's becoming parody like.
Kalnos said:
I don't think the first one is a knock as much as control ideas becoming standard.
I got into the Killzone 3 beta, and NEVER played the franchise, but immediately knew which buttons would fire my gun, aim down the sight, melee, change weapons, etc, because I've played enough shooters with similar layouts.
Or even a racing game, not many of them don't put the gas on the trigger button anymore.
Does that mean every shooter and racer I played is the same now?
walking fiend
Member
I don't know, I started gaming with River Raid, but never owned any Nintendo console until Wii, and I like SMG much more than classic 2D ones.DiatribeEQ said:
cartman414
Member
Concept17 said:
You also don't care for most JRPGs aside from FF7, when I would argue there are many better examples of the genre.
CoffeeJanitor said:
A fine point, I'm not sure that the spin is quite as interesting as FLUDD but it might have been intended to replace the floating mechanic introduced with Sunshine. (Good post, btw)
Some of you (Penguin, for instance) are stretching my argument with a bit of hyperbole here. I'm not saying that "derp all platforming games are the same". At their core, a lot of the 3D Mario platformers are very similar in gameplay and that the differences are in things like level design (as CoffeeJanitor pointed out). That isn't a bad thing at all I'm just saying that I think the people that bring these complaints, such as the IGN article author, are looking for changes to the core gameplay rather than level design, power-ups, etc.
Bringing up FPS games as some sort of counter argument is weird anyway since people have been blasting companies like Activision for releasing the "same games over and over again".
Having played a game certainly is a better outset for a discussion, but if you're only addressing a game's core concepts and those design elements a simple video can make apparent, it shouldn't be a prerequisite. You don't have to have worked in a factory to be able to gage the effects of the working conditions upheld by its management.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Their descent into madness has been quite invigorating though.Haunted said:
Diatribe1974
Member
McLovin said:
No. Mario's not evolved from the N64 version. Sure, he looks better these days, but beyond that? Not so much of anything else in my book.
blizzardjesus
Banned
I hate the shit out of LBP, and view Mass Effect as barely worth over $10. But I will gladly pay over $60 for a good platformer like NSMB or DKCR. Meat Boy was underpriced and should have been a boxed retail game at $50. Rayman HD and Kirby Wii(and Sonic gen to some extent) are the highest priority releases for me this fall.
jim-jam bongs
Member
The only platformers I've played in the past few years were SMG, SMG2, a bit of VVVVVV and Alice. And even I can say with confidence that this guy is full of shit.
What? Gaming side had teabaggers first, never forget.
Princess Skittles said:
What? Gaming side had teabaggers first, never forget.
DiatribeEQ said:
Entire levels of SMG/SMG2 are based on drilling environments, playing in gravity changing segments, pulling yourself through floating obstacles, navigating through platforms that disapear everytime you wrist flick during a jump, riding clouds through wind tunnels, mastering speed boosts to reach certain locations, etc, etc, etc...
Now you can choose accept these as "evolutions" of platforming gameplay or not, but claiming its been the same since SM64? Absurd
blizzardjesus
Banned
man, I forgot about VVVVVV, it's so amazing.Billychu said:
walking fiend
Member
I believe this is because you presumably thought that I had something against the game and was disregarding its value, which seemed unreasonable if I had even seen the game.
But the mere reason I was interested in the argument, was because you disregarded the fact that creating new content in a game such as NSMB is much more expensive, because of the nature of the content, and that it was not fair to say $15 SMB has as much content as $50 NSMB (regardless of the value each represent).
Graphics Horse
Member
I might be missing something, and I even reluctantly went to the site to see if I was missing something, but why are so many people talking about 3D platforming when they're specifically talking about 2D platformers?
Now people are arguing that Mario last evolved on the N64 and not the SNES, it's basically agreeing with IGN whilst reacting to a badly paraphrased thread title.
Gets cut down to "Mario and DK haven't evolved since the SNES"
Brilliant.
Now people are arguing that Mario last evolved on the N64 and not the SNES, it's basically agreeing with IGN whilst reacting to a badly paraphrased thread title.
Gets cut down to "Mario and DK haven't evolved since the SNES"
Brilliant.
cartman414
Member
I wonder if objectively they couldn't throw the same scrutiny in Blizzard's direction given the same kind of criteria.
On top of all this, it seems too often like people only cite evolution in games they like, making for some confounding examples and double-standards. Often on this very board.
How can you even say that? Political teabaggers existed long before they mobilized into the scary movement they are today.
On top of all this, it seems too often like people only cite evolution in games they like, making for some confounding examples and double-standards. Often on this very board.
jim-jam bongs said:
How can you even say that? Political teabaggers existed long before they mobilized into the scary movement they are today.