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IGN: "Mario and DK haven't evolved since the SNES"
- Thread starter _Alkaline_
- Start date
DiatribeEQ said:
Not evolved, except in game mechanics, level design and so on. Super Paper Mario fooled around with shifting between 2D to 3D worlds. Mario Sunshine revolved completely around a water-jetpack mechanic. Super Mario Galaxy 1/2 has significantly different level design, as well as playing around with spherical worlds and changes in gravity and worlds built around different power ups.
theBishop said:
Taken in context, it still doesn't make sense. New Super Mario Bros is the only Mario game that would fit the 2D 'classic-style' which makes it one of the only classic one to complain about, and that added 4 player co-op and areas that required motion control. Kirby Epic Yarn is a big departure from prior Kirby games, and there was a lot added to DKC Returns.
jim-jam bongs
Member
cartman414 said:
That rush of air you just heard was the point of a really obvious joke going over your head
theBishop said:
There were some discussions about the actual article a few pages back before people went crazy with the talk about how Mario Galaxy is identical to Super Mario Bros 1. The real problem with the article isn't that it's saying that NSMB and DKCR are the same as their SNES counterparts, that's just normal nintendo bashing, nor is it really negative considering how awesome those games were, and it's equally true for most games. The silly thing is that they apparently can not see any reason why something like this would cost more than this, in fact it should probably cost less because it isn't HD...
Comparing NSMBW and DKCR to a two man indie production is silly and it's not fair to either party. The production values in Nintendos platformers are through the roof and they have lots and lots of content
Also, I find the notion that 2D platformers somehow doesn't deserve to be full-priced completely bizarre. Great games that offer plenty of playtime are worth their price irrespective of how expensive they were to produce, but it's not like NSMB or DKCR gives the impression of being low-budget in the first place.
Edit: What beril said.
Edit: What beril said.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is really kind of a weird issue, since there's not really a good hard rule for how things should be priced. Someone mentioned Geometry Wars earlier: if a person gets 100 hours of fun out of a title like Geometry Wars then would it have been deserving of a full priced release?Jokeropia said:
Freezie KO
Banned
I'd rather play a 2D platformer than Mass Effect or Skyrim or Red Dead Redemption or, keeping it to Nintendo, Zelda. Therefore, 2D platformers should be premium-priced, and those games that try to inflate game length with lazily-structured fetch quests, GameFAQs-requiring "puzzles," or horrible Z-grade storytelling should be DD only.
Saint Gregory
Member
This is really off topic (even for me) but why is it even called "DLC" when 99% of the time all the content is already on the disc? I'm tired of reading articles trumpeting the advent of DLC and the need for it to be integrated into every new game and genre when all it's actually done is allow publishers to charge us for stuff in games that used to be free >:|
The_Technomancer said:
Yea game pricing is weird and it's getting weirder with the indroduction of 1$ games. I'd say there are a number of factors that justifies a games price, and there are some fairly standardized inofficial rules to what to expect from a 60$ game and a 15$ game. In the Geometry War example I wouldn't feel it's worth that much regardless how much time I play it, because there's just too little unique content.
But it's dangerous when people start thinking that a specific genre somehow isn't worth as much money, regardelss of playtime, production values, amount of content or budget. DKCR probably cost about the same to make as the Metroid Prime games, and it will give you more than enough playtime, but no one would suggest that MP should be a downloadable 15$ game
Anticitizen One
Banned
I kinda agree with them on DK but Mario stopped evolving with Mario 64. Sunshine and Galaxy just build on/change up the blueprints established in that game.
theBishop said:
Sure he is, sadly he wrote an article that wanders around without making a point and shows an obvious lack of research into the subject in terms of what might be guiding the market trends aside from pure speculation. He might be trying to have a larger conversation, but since he doesn't seem to have a grasp on the basic concepts it's easier to just reduce some of the salient points and laugh.
IC_Champion
Member
IGN sure likes stirring up trouble for themselves.
As someone who isn't a fan of Mario or platformers in general, what bothers me in this article is the explicit suggestion that more manpower/money invested = more valuable product. That is, games with "200 person teams" and "HD graphics" have inherently more value than those with smaller teams or worse graphics.
It's a concept I truly hate, particularly in creative fields. A product's value is derived from its utility (in this case, the entertainment provided), not its production cost, and those two things may or may not be similar nominal quantities. When you forget this, then you are well on your way to becoming a well trained consumer who simply buys the stuff that extremely large firms produce. It is in the interest of huge, conglomerated firms to convince you that better product = more expensive to make, because at that point they've already won. If the best products are those that take the most money to make, then by definition the firms with the most money are at an enormous advantage.
It's a concept I truly hate, particularly in creative fields. A product's value is derived from its utility (in this case, the entertainment provided), not its production cost, and those two things may or may not be similar nominal quantities. When you forget this, then you are well on your way to becoming a well trained consumer who simply buys the stuff that extremely large firms produce. It is in the interest of huge, conglomerated firms to convince you that better product = more expensive to make, because at that point they've already won. If the best products are those that take the most money to make, then by definition the firms with the most money are at an enormous advantage.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Opiate said:
and opiate crushes it.
Riposte
Member
It is funny evolution gets thrown around a lot since it is the slowest and most incremental type of change imaginable. Completely indiscernible without thousands upon thousands of years of material to work with, at the very minimum, and big effects on big creatures usually mean millions of years. Yet if a videogame series doesn't feature "mind-blowing" novelties it is not apart of an evolution(which is a never ending process btw). At some point the hyperbole and buzzwords replaced reality and people actually think this way.
EDIT: The guys who want to sprout these innovation/"NEW" arguments are always suspect. It is as if they have long lost the ability to discern the complexities and depths of specific genres, if not lost the ability to appreciate them. Perhaps after a certain level games become esoteric(though still universally enjoyable at some lower level). If you cannot appreciate the essence of games you begin to chase novelties. (That's where stupid indie games come in.)
EDIT: The guys who want to sprout these innovation/"NEW" arguments are always suspect. It is as if they have long lost the ability to discern the complexities and depths of specific genres, if not lost the ability to appreciate them. Perhaps after a certain level games become esoteric(though still universally enjoyable at some lower level). If you cannot appreciate the essence of games you begin to chase novelties. (That's where stupid indie games come in.)
nincompoop
Banned
Blinx is better than all three. Oh yeah I went there!Mr_eX said:
ShockingAlberto
Member
I honestly thought it felt kind of soulless. I was bored by the shooting and the exploration pretty early on.Billychu said:
Um... NSMB/Wii are the only original 2D Marios since the SNES, aren't they? And they're both intended to be throwbacks, right? And DKCR is also a throwback. And Kirby has been all over the place...
What is this article getting at? Is the point of it just that 2D platformers should only exist as DD for $10 or less? If so, why? It sounds like this guy just thinks that only "hardcore" games should be sold at retail or something...
What is this article getting at? Is the point of it just that 2D platformers should only exist as DD for $10 or less? If so, why? It sounds like this guy just thinks that only "hardcore" games should be sold at retail or something...
To Far Away Times
Member
Protip: It isn't. (Though its a good series)Mr_eX said:
I kinda get what IGN's trying to say. IGN was saying that Nintendo's games lack features, which is to say that Nintendo doesn't go all out anymore with anything. Everything they make now is designed as cheaply as possible, with the clever feint of being designed this way to emphasize gameplay over graphics (which is a false choice). Nintendo's basically become a soulless assembly-line designed to produce endless sequels to their franchises, on hardware that is underpowered and provides only the most basic of services or features. A non-farmed out original IP from them is an extreme rarity. The frontier died a long time ago with them.
NSMB Wii is a perfect example. Nintendo's executives said they needed a holiday game that could sell in excess of 5 million, but it had to use the most cost-effective means of production possible. And so they took the existing art assets of NSMB for the DS, added token features to make a new game out of it and called it a day. It felt terrible to play that thing, like I was watching a straight-to-DVD Disney sequel to a once exciting franchise. It had no magic at all.
NSMB Wii is a perfect example. Nintendo's executives said they needed a holiday game that could sell in excess of 5 million, but it had to use the most cost-effective means of production possible. And so they took the existing art assets of NSMB for the DS, added token features to make a new game out of it and called it a day. It felt terrible to play that thing, like I was watching a straight-to-DVD Disney sequel to a once exciting franchise. It had no magic at all.
To Far Away Times
Member
So much wrong with this post, I don't even know where to start. Super Mario Galaxy 2 has more creativity in it than maybe any other game I've ever played, it's anything but soulless. You might want to look at the military FPS genre or a majority of the "AAA" type games if you're looking for soulless, assembly line type games.Ecotic said:
Eggplant Wizard
Member
This article is awful and sets a very poor standard for valuing video games, but I think that people in this thread are kind of missing the point. He isn't criticizing the 2D Mario series and Donkey Kong Country for churning out one identical game after another. After all, there's only been two 2D Marios and one DKC game released since the SNES. He's saying that "SNES-era" gameplay isn't worth as much as cinematic RPGs or sandbox games. Which is bullshit, but he's not citing a lack of innovation.
There's not enough love being given to this gem, because somehow the quality of shovelware indicates the state of its genre:
Ok.
There's not enough love being given to this gem, because somehow the quality of shovelware indicates the state of its genre:
Ok.
Zoramon089
Banned
Ecotic said:
So why is it that no other platforming series (outside of those made by Nintendo) have been able to match it in terms of level design? It's like how Super Meat Boy became popular. Not because it had a super huge budget or amazing graphics but because it had great level design and platforming challenges
If Nintendo is a soulless assembly-line designed to produce endless sequels to their franchises then I hope they continue because their Wii games have been some of the best games I've ever played.Ecotic said:
If you think NSMBW is just NSMB with token features added then you obviously haven't played that game because it's pretty much the best 2D Mario ever made while NSMB is a lackluster piece of crap.