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[Derrick01]

But they often are:
Mount & Blade,
FTL,
Mark of the Ninja,
Legend of Grimrock,
and a lot more...

Just because there is a lot of uninspired, unambitious, uninteresting shit among indie games, that shouldn't be what defines the entire production.

Of course, that also doesn't mean people should constantly shit over high budget productions claiming that indie games are generally better, because they often really aren't.

See I like mark of the ninja a lot but does it count as indie since it was published by Microsoft? I get confused as to what counts as indie with some of these games.

But I need most of that industry to progress a little further. I keep hearing that all the innovation is on the indie side anymore and for the most part I don't see it. Now I'm not sticking up for AAA games, everyone here knows I have my fair amount of problems with them, but I don't see indie games as saving the industry creatively.

 

[Sentenza]

See I like mark of the ninja a lot but does it count as indie since it was published by Microsoft? I get confused as to what counts as indie with some of these games.

Oh well, I stopped caring about that kind of distinction. People broadly label the game as indie? I'll go with them.

 

[Usobuko]

What about the games in-between? Those that have retail copies but not as heavily budgeted as AAA games?

They tend to be some of my favourite games, I do not see something like Dark Soul as a game with AAA budget.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

What is "indie" again?

Is that MotN? Journey? Because those were published by some pretty big companies.

This reminds me of how every non-Marvel/DC comic book is apparently an "indie".

 

[MormaPope]

The terms should be changed to reflect development, indie could stay the same and have the same meaning, a few or dozen people working on a project together, budget is based on what the people making it can muster, "Indie made".

AAA should be retitled as simply "Studio made". Large amount of team members, budget is dependent on publishers and if the game is successful.

 

[Riposte]

What is "indie" again?

Is that MotN? Journey? Because those were published by some pretty big companies.

Let's keep it going: Platinum Games calls itself "independent".

 

[beril]

Why does it always have to be Indies vs AAA? There is a much broader spectrum out there than just Call of Duty and Braid and the distinction between Indie and non indie is incredibly blurry. Obviously big blockbuster type of games with massive marketing will reach more people, and some people would do well to broaden their horizons a bit, but sometimes the indie-crusading can get a bit much

 

[Sentenza]

What about the games in-between? Those that have retail copies but not as heavily budgeted as AAA games?

Mid-budget productions? Best of both worlds, when properly executed. And it's a market which is just thriving in the PC scene.

Is that MotN? Journey? Because those were published by some pretty big companies.

That's really not a point of controversy.
The controversy, however, has its place because they were *funded* by big companies, before being published.

 

[Tain]

also do not forget past indie masterpieces like super mario bros 3

 

[tokkun]

Time is more of a barrier to me than cost these days. My backlog is never empty, yet I sometimes go a few weeks without playing a game because my leisure time at home is fully occupied. This tends to make me very risk-averse when deciding if I should start a new game - I don't want to burn my limited gaming time on something that turns out awful.

Indie games are riskier in this respect than big budget games for a variety of reasons - Fewer (if any) reviews in Metacritic, less likely for me to hear impressions on a podcast from someone whose tastes I've calibrated, less publisher oversight (not that this is a silver bullet by any means), less chance of name recognition in the dev staff, etc. For people who are money-constrained, these risks are counterbalanced by the lower price, but this is not so for people who are time-constrained.

Hence, I end up playing a lot fewer indie games than I would like. I really enjoy most of the ones I do play, but they tend to only be those that get significant mainstream media coverage or a large amount of grassroots PR on forums - stuff like Braid, World of Goo, Recettear, Bastion, LIMBO, Cave Story, Super Meat Boy, and Audiosurf. Probably the 'riskiest' indie game I've bought to date is Lone Survivor, and I still haven't started it 6 months later for the exact reason I mentioned.

 

[Papercuts]

The indie label is just as toxic as AAA because many of the 'indie greats' that get heralded are published by big companies.

 

[TheSeks]

1. Price
Kinda obvious, but people should start to vote with their wallet. If the average big budget game costs $60 and we know through recent examples that day 1 reviews might not be the most reliable source, how about holding onto our wallets and buy an Indie Game for $0-$15 (depending on available funds) instead to pass the time until more reliable reports come in? We, as gamers, shouldnt give publishers our undying trust anymore. People got burned often enough, but if people still tend to buy all of these games on day 1, there is no reason for the publishers to overthink their business model. We dont want buggy games on day 1 for $60. We dont want shoehorned Day 1 DLC. We dont want Always Online DRM. We dont want Pay to Win Games. If you have the need to experience a new game, go visit a recent Indie Thread, ask for a recommendation and dive into something you wouldnt have done instead.

And they don't get burned by indies...? Toma, I don't think you thought this through...

As far as "AAA doesn't deserve my money." You're right, in that case I don't buy AAA games NOR indies. I'll play the titles I already have and enjoy them.

2. People are missing out on great games
And I mean seriously, there are probably more great Indie Games I can name that I am looking forward to than I can even think of 'AAA' releases. Here is a quick list made by 2 people:>>huge list<<

I got no interest in those. Just like I have no interest in Madden or sport AAA titles. So...?

5. Only playing big budget games is tainting us.
The biggest issue I see here, is that we are conforming ourselves to certain standards, which dont allow for any deviation of the norm. And if anyone deviates from said norm, it usually means failure. That is especially true for the big budget releases. Just compare the MP modes of all the big FPS games. Almost all of them play it safe, by offering similar modes and the same incentives to keep playing the games. Its not necessarily a bad thing to include a feature which has proven to be fun in another game or previous iteration of the series, but the serious lack of diversity is hurting everybody's gaming experiences. As I said waaay up above, big budget games shouldnt go away. They serve a purpose and players want them. But I sometimes get the impression that we need to "reeducate" ourselves how to play games out of our own comfort zone. I remember that I didnt question a recommendation by a friend a lot when he handed me a game. And its a real pity that so many people seem to have lost that willingness to explore other areas of gaming. Social gaming and dumbing down sequels are softening those barriers a bit (See SimCity), but that in the end still leaves us with games that mostly publishers want (especially in the social gaming scene) as endless cash grabs.

This is the only valid point you have in regards to your argument, IMO. And to go back earlier:

Quite apparently, the "Gaming Industry" cant keep up anymore. Features are being cut left and right, and games are being pushed out of the door in a state that no one wanted (SimCity, Aliens:CM, Dead Space 3..). There are still big budget games I have high hopes for, but there are SO MANY titles that get rushed or being thrown into a yearly release schedule, which basically doesnt allow for any major improvements to the formula (Assassins Creed, Madden), just to cash in on the current willingness of the customers to open their wallets.

This is a problem for the AAA industry that the indies can't solve. Indies would be in just as much shit if they rushed their titles out within 2 weeks to 6 months as AAA developers do within a year. Shorter dev cycles and higher dev costs are the problem there. I don't think it's a "feature being cut" but more "we have to ship something to make our budget deadlines!"

Conversely, "when it's done" also burns AAA developers. So it's a fine balance.

So I was right with the second option: you DO have a problem of awareness.

How is it a problem of awareness if GAF brings these titles up in his view? I know of Frozen Synapse and Hotline Miami and Fez and...

...And the only title that interested me from those lists of indies is Frozen Synapse. And...

...It still doesn't hold a candle to the playtime I give to Battlefield 3/Bad Company 2, Street Fighter 4, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, Persona/SMT, etc.

So, how is it "close-minded," to see these titles. Go "Yeah, that doesn't appeal to me" and go back to "AAA" titles that do appeal to me? Answer me this.

 

[Sentenza]

How is it a problem of awareness if GAF brings these titles up in his view?

Because he explicitly said he doesn't know about indies he's interested in and can't be bothered looking for them?

So, how is it "close-minded," to see these titles. Go "Yeah, that doesn't appeal to me" and go back to "AAA" titles that do appeal to me? Answer me this.

For me? It *definitely* is. And I don't care about what you give more playtime to, honestly. That's not even the point.
On a side note, everyone who doesn't care about Mount & Blade or Legend of Grimrock is by default a terrible person in my eyes.

 

[Mileena]

Indie is officially more annoying in games than music

 

[Riposte]

Indie is officially more annoying in games than music

I think that has been the case since the movie and everything Phil Fish.

 

[Derrick01]

For me? It *definitely* is. And I don't care about what you give more playtime to, honestly. That's not even the point.
On a side note, everyone who doesn't care about Mount & Blade or Legend of Grimrock is by default a terrible person in my eyes.

I would have liked Mount and Blade a lot more if the empire/sim stuff was handled a lot better. I don't do multiplayer so I feel like I was getting the short end of the stick with warband.

 

[RibbedHero]

Amazing thread Toma, thanks for putting the effort into writing it.

 

[Wyndstryker]

People who say indie games won't have what you want definitely didn't scratch the surface. I can probably rant for weeks on how varied the F2P MMO market is in Asia. MMO's made with UE3 or CryEngine, they got it over there. Casual MMO's with a bazillion minigames, they got those too. Lets even go into dance MMO's with crazy clothing physics. Suffice to say there is always something out there but the main issue really is exposure. For someone like me who knows where to look for stuff I like, it's not a problem. But getting other people to know is like trying to have a conversation beside a rocket engine, you tend to not get heard. People aren't really going to dig around until there are easier means of finding those good indies. The crazy thing is, the indies we generally hear about are practically the bigger indie studios with publisher relations or games that had YEARS to build it's reputation.

I think the main reason why Toma here is constantly trying to push the indie exposure is because the scene is WAY bigger than people realize and the exposure is like putting a laser pointer on the moon. First part of the big problem is that to really dig into the indie scene, it's primarily on PC which won't really include console gamers at all. Two favorite games this gen is Katawa Shoujo and To The Moon, games made with Ren'Py and RPGMaker. You can't really get those on console. But for some of us who constantly track Ren'Py and RPGMaker we've been exposed to great indie games like Katawa Shoujo, Digital: A Love Story, To The Moon, Ib, The Witches House, to name a few.

In general, people need to attempt to broaden their horizons more than just taking whats coming by and trying it out. Gaming is like music in some ways, there's whats mainstream and then the niche and unknown. But no one bashes the niche, they just say it's a different preference. Right now though, indie games get bashed but it really should be just a different preference of gaming. I'm all up for more indie exposure, there is stuff out there that definitely needs more attention. If you're fine with what is out there in the mainstream, thats ok. But you won't ever know if there is something more specific to your tastes without looking around.

 

[gryz]

I don't discriminate games based on their budget, I just care if they are fun or not.

 

[Sentenza]

I would have liked Mount and Blade a lot more if the empire/sim stuff was handled a lot better. I don't do multiplayer so I feel like I was getting the short end of the stick with warband.

You and everyone else in the known universe, I would guess.
It doesn't change how the game can be exceedingly fun regardless of that.
And yeah, I'm not really talking about the multiplayer, either.

 

[Rafy]

I thought GAF adored it's indies?! I personally love 'em.

 

[Gravijah]

"Middle" games > AAA/Indie. It makes me sad the industry is pulling in both directions and losing the middle.

 

[Box]

But they often are:
Mount & Blade,
FTL,
Mark of the Ninja,
Legend of Grimrock,
and a lot more...

Just because there is a lot of uninspired, unambitious, uninteresting shit among indie games, that shouldn't be what defines the entire production.

Of course, that also doesn't mean people should constantly shit over high budget productions claiming that indie games are generally better, because they often really aren't.

I do not understand why this game keeps coming up as one of the better indie games. What in the world do people like about this game?

Or do people have different standards for indie games? It's not like it's free though.

 

[Atomski]

I do not understand why this game keeps coming up as one of the better indie games. What in the world do people like about this game?

Or do people have different standards for indie games? It's not like it's free though.

Uh its awesome and fun to play?

 

[Wyndstryker]

I do not understand why this game keeps coming up as one of the better indie games. What in the world do people like about this game?

Or do people have different standards for indie games? It's not like it's free though.

Indie games hit gameplay tastes that in most cases are completely untouched. I haven't played FTL but I can understand it's appeal. It's pretty unique in how it does a lot of things.

 

[Spinluck]

Hey can someone tell me why they're called AAA games?

Is it an acronym or something?

 

[codecow]

Uh, what's up with the DS hate?

 

[UrbanRats]

Hey can someone tell me why they're called AAA games?

Is it an acronym or something?

More "A"s, equals bigger budget.
I think it's just a grade thing to determine production value?

--
I'm ok with indie titles, they fared in my top 3 GOTY these last 3 years.
But i have to say my main interest being 3d open world games, means i tend to be interested in costly titles, mainly.

 

[Box]

Indie games hit gameplay tastes that in most cases are completely untouched. I haven't played FTL but I can understand it's appeal. It's pretty unique in how it does a lot of things.

If you understand it, then help me out here. Because I really don't see any what anyone would like about it, and yet people do so I'm obviously missing something.

Uh its awesome and fun to play?

And because these are the kinds of explanations that I've found.

 

[Phatmac]

I just dislike how the term indie is used when describing indie games. Most people would associate Journey as an indie game yet it was published by Sony and supported by them.

 

[Atomski]

Hey can someone tell me why they're called AAA games?

Is it an acronym or something?

Its supposed to stand for quality, like a hotel may have a AAA rating so it is considered really popular.

Funny thing is when it comes to videogames publishers consider anything that costs a shit load a money AAA no matter the quality. EA said Deadspace 3 would be AAAA lol.. when lets be honest it was shit.

 

[KodeAndGame]

Uh oh. Toma done started something!


I kid. Being serious - I can't believe how little love indie games get. It's really quite a shame. Gateways, as a prime example, is one of the best games I played last year and most people, even here, never heard of it!

 

[Wyndstryker]

If you understand it, then help me out here. Because I really don't see any what anyone would like about it, and yet people do so I'm obviously missing something.

I have no idea what your gaming preferences are so I don't know if you'll like it or not. Given that I myself haven't played it but heard stuff about it I don't think I can help too much on the specifics. If you like Sci-Fi games where you're a ship captain trying to survive in a random hostile environment then give it a try. I can see why people would like it but I'm probably not the best person to talk to in regards to the specifics about the game.

 

[InsaneLuchador]

just play good games.

Yeah, no need to put this into an elitist formula. The indie game movement has been great to watch take off, but fuck if I'm going to skip the Last of Us.

 

[Speevy]

Although I agree that people should play good games and not worry about where they came from, there is always more value in risk-taking.

 

[INTERNET]

Every once in a while it's nice to have an ignore list litmus test. Also Starseed Pilgrim has occupied 95% of my brain for the last two days, both asleep and awake. If you take nothing else away from this thread, and you like the idea of video games, and you're not a big baby, go play it.

 

[Box]

I have no idea what your gaming preferences are so I don't know if you'll like it or not. Given that I myself haven't played it but heard stuff about it I don't think I can help too much on the specifics. If you like Sci-Fi games where you're a ship captain trying to survive in a random hostile environment then give it a try. I can see why people would like it but I'm probably not the best person to talk to in regards to the specifics about the game.

To clarify, I'm not asking to be convinced to like the game. I just want to understand why other people like it. I think I've played it enough to see most of it.

I considered the whole RPG approach, but it didn't make a lot of sense to me. The plot and setting are really thin and the decision-making isn't particularly deep. There's also no way to really construct a specific strategy because of how random it is. It's like the anti-RPG.

 

[Atomski]

If you understand it, then help me out here. Because I really don't see any what anyone would like about it, and yet people do so I'm obviously missing something.

Its not something you can just easily explain.. I dont know what you have played or like. For instane have you played a rogue like? Stuff like that..

Simplest way I could explain it is you are a captain of a ship and you control everything. It has many random events that will lead to "oh shit" situations. You actually have to think things through to keep you and your crew members alive.

It appears so simple yet can be pretty deep as well and theres nothing quiet like it on the market at the moment. Id say best way to understand is watch some youtube videos.

Edit: Yea sounds like you dont understand rogue likes.. some people enjoy randomness instead of the same obvious stuff repeating over and over.

 

[thetrin]

My job is literally dispelling a lot of those silly preconceptions about indie games, and making sure they get the proper exposure. If you were to think that western indie games have an uphill slope to deal with in terms of exposure, marketing, etc, than Japanese indie companies have to deal with a sheer cliff. My job is to make sure that sheer cliff becomes more like a gentle slope for them.

I will say, though, that I'm having an absolute blast creating exposure for indie games. It's been a long time since I worked in a marketing job where I a genuinely adored the product I was marketing.

I suppose it's my problem, but there's not a single indie game that interests me. I own hundreds of "AAA" games.

Would you say you have ample knowledge of indie game releases?

There are honestly many that don't interest me, but just like big budget games, there's something for everyone.

 

[Wyndstryker]

To clarify, I'm not asking to be convinced to like the game. I just want to understand why other people like it. I think I've played it enough to see most of it.

I considered the whole RPG approach, but it didn't make a lot of sense to me. The plot and setting are really thin and the decision-making isn't particularly deep. There's also no way to really construct a specific strategy because of how random it is. It's like the anti-RPG.

A lot of people like the random elements of a rogue-like game. Personally I don't like too much random but there's a market for it. And that alone is how I know some people will like it. There really isn't many space ship games with rogue-like elements of it's kind anywhere.

 

[PFD]

Very well-put OP. I totally agree with you, and really enjoy indie games.

That title though...

 

[Box]

Edit: Yea sounds like you dont understand rogue likes.. some people enjoy randomness instead of the same obvious stuff repeating over and over.

But it is the same obvious stuff that happens over and over again. You just don't know exactly when it's going to happen.

Is this really the reason? Randomness?

I guess the other reason that's kind of being suggested is that people are just struck by the novelty of a game that feels like a space adventure. That's kind of condescending though and not something I would expect of GAF members.

Then again, I don't see a single vote for Star Control II in the GAF RPG essentials.....

Whatever, I have to go to bed.

 

[Snapshot King]

I understand the OPs point, but my issue tends to be that I simply don't enjoy 99% of the genres that indies go for. If you showed me say...a 90s style classic rpg (either east or west) my ears would perk up.

 

[MaximusPrimus]

I like all types of games. no budget to full budget. u know. I rather enjoy as much as I can instead of wasting my time comparing which is better.

 

[Data West]

I understand the OPs point, but my issue tends to be that I simply don't enjoy 99% of the genres that indies go for. If you showed me say...a 90s style classic rpg (either east or west) my ears would perk up.

Ditto.
Hotline Miami was the first indie game to really grab my interest. I will always prefer my GTAs and Yakuzas and other big budget open world games though

 

[Alex Connolly]

I've always found even the wonkiest indie project endearing, and find great joy in wringing fun and intrigue out of a tiny team or even a solo effort. There's a personal touch to the indie game that I relish.

I've no strong feelings either way, and don't necessarily think there's a wrong way to go about 'gaming'. If you're a fellow who feels like they're not missing out playing the blockbusters, then cool. If you're someone whose gaming subsistence comes from the indie scene, good stuff, too.

There is no harm, however, in going for something different. I find the indie set, which is an absolutely nebulous term at this point and comes with all sorts of baggage, to cater to niches and even at their most busted, feature some sort of wonderful, relatively unexplored aspect or direction.

That said, time and money for people are not always easy to come by and if they want to err on the side of caution and run with the safer bets, then you can't judge a man.

Said elsewhere, but I'm as fascinated by mid-tier developers/publishers like Focus Home Interactive etc. as I am with indies. There's some great stuff coming out below the Triple A pricing structure and development emphasis...another musing for another time.

 

[Wyndstryker]

I understand the OPs point, but my issue tends to be that I simply don't enjoy 99% of the genres that indies go for. If you showed me say...a 90s style classic rpg (either east or west) my ears would perk up.

Part of the reason why I stuck around the RPGMaker communities. I get my 90's JRPG gaming fix there lol.

 

[PFD]

Hey can someone tell me why they're called AAA games?

Is it an acronym or something?

I believe the term was borrowed from finance, as seen here.

 

[Atomski]

I understand the OPs point, but my issue tends to be that I simply don't enjoy 99% of the genres that indies go for. If you showed me say...a 90s style classic rpg (either east or west) my ears would perk up.

Anodyne

 

[PFD]

I understand the OPs point, but my issue tends to be that I simply don't enjoy 99% of the genres that indies go for. If you showed me say...a 90s style classic rpg (either east or west) my ears would perk up.

Have you played To The Moon? Not a real RPG, but it's brilliant.