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[pbsapeer]

Adrian Durham on Talksport not fucking about.

https://soundcloud.com/talksport/adrian-durhams-hillsborough-reaction

Thanks for posting this. What a great man. Laying it down properly.

Can't believe this news. It's excellent and a great result for the families. As a Liverpool fan too young to have been alive for it I've read a lot and watched a lot about the events at hillsborough. I can't even imagine the way the families have felt or are feeling over these 27 years. The strength they have shown has been exceptional. Whether or not they get the prosecutions on those who deserve it is another matter. But I'm sure the fact that they've had the justice is redemption.

JFT96

 

[Suzzopher]

So relieved that the families have this verdict.

I remember watching this on TV when I was 9. Shocked me then, but reading through all the reports had me tearing me up again.

 

[Fur_Q]

JFT96 disgusting cover up of the highest order.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaBnY-SnwxA

I urge anyone who isn't clued in on the facts of this tragedy to watch this documentary, it's three years old and won't have the latest revelations but it's damning on how corrupt and insidious the police force and politicians who took part in this shit were. Also Kelvin McKenzie and Bernard Ingham can fucking rot the fucking cunts, disgusting vile pieces of shit.

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

So you mean, scouser's aren't the thieving, lying, shifty, scumbags they're demonised into by tv and the media and the government? Shocking

 

[Plasma]

What a shock no mention of the inquest on the Sun or the Times front pages which are both Murdoch papers.

EDIT: Here's all the Sun has on it on page 10 and they basically take no responsibility themselves for reporting just blame the police for giving them mis-information, absolutely disgusting though I suppose I shouldn't expect anything less at this point.

 

[Par Score]

I was at Old Trafford for the recent EL tie and I was absolutely sickened at the chants that started up, absolute fecking morons and, as you say, this will not stop them.

There should be lifetime bans given out, they should have already been given out, but you'd have to ban half of the Stretford End.

Excuse my ignorance, but hadn't it been known for years that it was the police's fault?

"Known" to anyone following the case, sure. But now it's official, now it's known in a way that can actually lead to real change.

Adrian Durham on Talksport not fucking about.

https://soundcloud.com/talksport/adrian-durhams-hillsborough-reaction

Talksport can be a real shitshow (less so now than in the past), but this is bang on. Massive respect.

 

[ThePrequelsSuck]

"After a 27-year campaign by victims' families,"
Wow.

 

[Cat Party]

For those interested, ESPN has a 30 for 30 documentary on this tragedy and it should be on Netflix (at least it was last time I checked).

Horrifying situation.

Can't recommend this enough. You don't need to be a sports fan to watch it.

The tragedy was unbelievable on its own, and the cover up and slander of the victims only adds to it. The ease with which the authorities escaped blame is mind boggling.

 

[Eidan]

Just wondering USGAF or non-football/soccer GAF in general, what would be your knowledge on this disaster and is there anything in US sports that would rival it?

I've heard about the disaster many times, but honestly have always struggled to understand the logistics of how it happened. Like, I need a complete map with animations.

 

[CCS]

I've heard about the disaster many times, but honestly have always struggled to understand the logistics of how it happened. Like, I need a complete map with animations.

This should help: What happened at Hillsborough?

 

[moggio]

Lol@ The Sun and The Times not having this on the front page. Absolutely disgusting cowardice and contempt for the people affected by this tragedy. Murdoch should jump in a volcano the cunt.

 

[Griss]

This should help: What happened at Hillsborough?

That's a fantastic link, thank you for that. I finally understand the logistics of it. It was an error of engineering (the stadium entrances and pens were both not fit for purpose) and a failure of the police (opening the gate, not closing the pens). Clear as day. How this could have taken 27 years to sort is mindboggling.

I will say, though, that I will never understand crowd dynamics, in that once a crush appears to be happening and people are screaming, that the back of the crowd doesn't start moving away. I know it's not that simple and these things work the same way all over the globe but I will never understand people being crushed to death at the front while people at the back either stand there or try to advance. And I'm a lad who spent some of his childhood in sports terraces and schoolboy sections. It must be a problem of information transmission.

Tragic. Absolutely tragic.

 

[Sanjuro]

Sounds like I need to watch this 30 vs 30.

 

[CCS]

That's a fantastic link, thank you for that. I finally understand the logistics of it. It was an error of engineering (the stadium entrances and pens were both not fit for purpose) and a failure of the police (opening the gate, not closing the pens). Clear as day. How this could have taken 27 years to sort is mindboggling.

I will say, though, that I will never understand crowd dynamics, in that once a crush appears to be happening and people are screaming, that the back of the crowd doesn't start moving away. I know it's not that simple and these things work the same way all over the globe but I will never understand people being crushed to death at the front while people at the back either stand there or try to advance. And I'm a lad who spent some of his childhood in sports terraces and schoolboy sections. It must be a problem of information transmission.

Tragic. Absolutely tragic.

On the information transmission, one thing you can't really see in the video is that the tunnel slopes up, so the people pouring in couldn't see that there was a crush happening.

 

[moggio]

That's a fantastic link, thank you for that. I finally understand the logistics of it. It was an error of engineering (the stadium entrances and pens were both not fit for purpose) and a failure of the police (opening the gate, not closing the pens). Clear as day. How this could have taken 27 years to sort is mindboggling.

I will say, though, that I will never understand crowd dynamics, in that once a crush appears to be happening and people are screaming, that the back of the crowd doesn't start moving away. I know it's not that simple and these things work the same way all over the globe but I will never understand people being crushed to death at the front while people at the back either stand there or try to advance. And I'm a lad who spent some of his childhood in sports terraces and schoolboy sections. It must be a problem of information transmission.

Tragic. Absolutely tragic.

This post on reddit explains how "crowd crush" occurs:

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm

 

[Eidan]

This should help: What happened at Hillsborough?

Perfect. Thank you. This feels like remarkably poor planning on the part of the police, and stadium engineers.

 

[Fakeknowledge]

Lol@ The Sun and The Times not having this on the front page. Absolutely disgusting cowardice and contempt for the people effected by this tragedy. Murdoch should jump in a volcano the cunt.

Just seen a tweet where someone said if you're reading a newspaper tomorrow and Hillsborough isn't on the front page it isn't a newspaper, all that needs to be said really.

The New York Times has it on their front page tomorrow ffs.

 

[CCS]

Perfect. Thank you. This feels like remarkably poor planning on the part of the police, and stadium engineers.

Indeed. Several of the questions the jury answered related to failures in planning, design, and engineering.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Sounds like I need to watch this 30 vs 30.

it'll be on ESPN2 tonight at 8(830?) eastern time

 

[Altazor]

All of those interested but ignorant about this tragedy, should watch the 30 for 30 documentary. It's definitely recommended.

 

[BunnyBear]

Because the image is offensive

No it's not? That's asinine.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

For anyone who thinks Boris is a loveable buffoon. He's a calculating, mean little shit. Eton to the core.

As much as I've seen this shared on Twitter and Facebook today...he didn't write that.
He was editor at the time and should have KO'd it, but it was written by Simon Heffer (now a Daily Mail writer)...and Boris has apologised on multiple occasions about printing the article.

 

[elseanio]

Edit* don't want to derail

Just been down to St George's Hall, very moving. Will hopefully get to the vigil later today.

 

[Steve.1981]

Thank god we finally got here. This has been one of the most shameful episodes in British history.

Justice for the 96.

 

[pulsemyne]

Andy Burnhams speech in the House of Commons was incredible. He almost broke down at some parts. Even, and I am loathed to say this, Theresa May did a good job as well. Burnhams though was something else.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Good to hear.

Hopefully people can learn from this and move on. It's been hanging over people's heads for far too long.

Fortunately they more or less have learned from this. Aside from the lack of terraced stands (which makes a huge part of the problem irrelevant, since there's a very particular amount of space allocated per person), modern management of crowds in events like this combined with modern building standards make a recurrence very unlikely.

 

[Eidan]

I watched the 30 for 30 doc on the disaster. It was sickening, from the disaster to the subsequent coverup. Blind deferrence to police authority by the general public causes a disregard for justice worldwide.

 

[Kozak]

This post on reddit explains how "crowd crush" occurs:

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm

Great read and kinda frightening.

 

[Beefy]

 

[HazySaiyan]

So I'm sure it's just a complete coincidence that both News Corp papers didn't have a front page print? Fucking cowards.

 

[BeesEight]

I just want to thank everyone who provided links in this topic. I had never heard of the event before and all the supplementary reading was very informative and well laid out. Kudos for that.

I can see why this inquest finding is so important. A really tragic tale from start to finish. It's remarkable the self justification of the police and how they were able to skirt all the oversight set into place for so long. I can't imagine the struggle the affected families must have faced.

 

[Beefy]

So I'm sure it's just a complete coincidence that both News Corp papers didn't have a front page print? Fucking cowards.

I don't blame the journo's for it. I blame the higher ups who have obviously been told not to do a front page.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

The north remembers.

Amazing families.

 

[iamblades]

On the information transmission, one thing you can't really see in the video is that the tunnel slopes up, so the people pouring in couldn't see that there was a crush happening.

Regardless of any slope in the tunnel, eventually you will reach a point where you can't move forward, so could we maybe start using our brains in situations like this and just stop and wait instead of trying to push the people in front of us(who are presumably stopped for a reason) forward?

We get in traffic jams all the time, and we don't just try to push the car in front of us forward. You don't just go up to people on the street and push them in the back. It shouldn't become culturally acceptable to do these things just because you are at a sporting event or a rock concert or a religious event, and if we as a culture place so much importance on those things that our every day rules of behavior and what is acceptable go out the window, maybe we should take time to reexamine our priorities.

None of this is to put the blame on the victims or reduce the responsibility of the authorities in charge, but could we admit this is a much more complex problem than 'this is the fault of the cops that kept sending people in when it was full'.

This is a giant multivariable problem and there is more than enough blame to go around. Starting with the fact that people thought it was a good idea to design a sports stadium like a fucking prison or that there is such a cultural importance placed on tribal identity related to a sports team that fans of separate teams weren't even allowed to use the same entrance or the same stands.

The authorities fucked up in opening the gate to let people in faster and then lied to cover it up. They fucked up in designing a stadium that was completely incapable of dealing with the numbers of spectators and not doing anything to help the rush like open the gates earlier or send people to different sections instead of allowing everyone to rush into those two.

Some part of the blame also rests on the people who though it was acceptable to push people forward just because they were in a crowd and anonymous.

 

[moggio]

Regardless of any slope in the tunnel, eventually you will reach a point where you can't move forward, so could we maybe start using our brains in situations like this and just stop and wait instead of trying to push the people in front of us(who are presumably stopped for a reason) forward?

We get in traffic jams all the time, and we don't just try to push the car in front of us forward. You don't just go up to people on the street and push them in the back. It shouldn't become culturally acceptable to do these things just because you are at a sporting event or a rock concert or a religious event, and if we as a culture place so much importance on those things that our every day rules of behavior and what is acceptable go out the window, maybe we should take time to reexamine our priorities.

None of this is to put the blame on the victims or reduce the responsibility of the authorities in charge, but could we admit this is a much more complex problem than 'this is the fault of the cops that kept sending people in when it was full'.

This is a giant multivariable problem and there is more than enough blame to go around. Starting with the fact that people thought it was a good idea to design a sports stadium like a fucking prison or that there is such a cultural importance placed on tribal identity related to a sports team that fans of separate teams weren't even allowed to use the same entrance or the same stands.

The authorities fucked up in opening the gate to let people in faster and then lied to cover it up. They fucked up in designing a stadium that was completely incapable of dealing with the numbers of spectators and not doing anything to help the rush like open the gates earlier or send people to different sections instead of allowing everyone to rush into those two.

Some part of the blame also rests on the people who though it was acceptable to push people forward just because they were in a crowd and anonymous.

This post on reddit explains how "crowd crush" occurs:

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Just disappointed justice didn't some sooner. The men responsible are either dead or retired at this point.

If this achieved anything it cleared the names of the people killed and their families. The Sun printed a story called "The Truth" about what happened at Hillsborough when it happened. If you look up lies and failures in any sort of journalism, you will find this article in it. They claimed the fans were responsible, attacking police officers, obstructing emergency services and pick-pocketing victims. You go to Liverpool today, enter any News Agents, they will not have a single copy of The Sun.

 

[iamblades]

This post on reddit explains how "crowd crush" occurs:

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm

All of which I understand.

None of that would or could happen if it were completely unacceptable to push into people, as it is in the other 99.9% of social situations.

The point I was making was when we as a culture place such a high importance on these events that people find it acceptable to push into people to the extent that people get crushed to death, maybe it's worth asking if these events actually matter.

 

[moggio]

All of which I understand.

None of that would or could happen if it were completely unacceptable to push into people, as it is in the other 99.9% of social situations.

The point I was making was when we as a culture place such a high importance on these events that people find it acceptable to push into people to the extent that people get crushed to death, maybe it's worth asking if these events actually matter.

No offence, mate, but you don't understand it at all.

 

[iamblades]

No offence, mate, but you don't understand it at all.

Yes I do, you can't crush people without touching them, so the question becomes why does it become acceptable in dense crowds to do that, when you wouldn't ordinarily behave in such a way.

 

[Maledict]

Yes I do, you can't crush people without touching them, so the question becomes why does it become acceptable in dense crowds to do that, when you wouldn't ordinarily behave in such a way.

No, you really don't understand at all. People die repeatedly in these situations, and it's not because they are dumb. This phenomenon has been studied repeatedly (as the reddit link shows), and it's not to do with aggressive people at the back shoving their way in.

Victim blaming is really not appropriate given the circumstances.

 

[moggio]

Yes I do, you can't crush people without touching them, so the question becomes why does it become acceptable in dense crowds to do that, when you wouldn't ordinarily behave in such a way.

They had no choice!

Once they were past the turn-styles the only way they could move was forwards into an enclosure with no exit.

Here's a first-person account from a survivor: http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/gary.shtm

 

[Ithil]

Yes I do, you can't crush people without touching them, so the question becomes why does it become acceptable in dense crowds to do that, when you wouldn't ordinarily behave in such a way.

You seem to be under the impression they physically had a choice. Put ten people in an elevator meant for five people maximum, what happens?

 

[King_Moc]

Yes I do, you can't crush people without touching them, so the question becomes why does it become acceptable in dense crowds to do that, when you wouldn't ordinarily behave in such a way.

Have you considered that they didn't want to? Sounds to me like you've literally never been in a crowd.

 

[iamblades]

No, you really don't understand at all. People die repeatedly in these situations, and it's not because they are dumb. This phenomenon has been studied repeatedly (as the reddit link shows), and it's not to do with aggressive people at the back shoving their way in.

Victim blaming is really not appropriate given the circumstances.

You are completely missing my point.

I am not victim blaming, I'm questioning the cultural importance we place on certain things that leads to such dense crowds, and suggesting that if we all agreed that nothing was really that important we could avoid these kinds of tragedies.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

You are completely missing my point.

I am not victim blaming, I'm questioning the cultural importance we place on certain things that leads to such dense crowds, and suggesting that if we all agreed that nothing was really that important we could avoid these kinds of tragedies.

You're not doing so through your posts anyway.

 

[King_Moc]

You are completely missing my point.

I am not victim blaming, I'm questioning the cultural importance we place on certain things that leads to such dense crowds, and suggesting that if we all agreed that nothing was really that important we could avoid these kinds of tragedies.

Are you one of those people that doesn't really get why other people like stuff, then goes and sits in the corner and complains that "everyone is just doing the same thing"? It seems like you might be misunderstanding the societal nature of the human species on a pretty fundamental level. People are going to get together like this for things, the organisers of the events should make it safe. End of.

 

[iamblades]

Have you considered that they didn't want to? Sounds to me like you've literally never been in a crowd.

I've gone to plenty of metal shows, and those experiences are largely what made me start thinking this way.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Some part of the blame also rests on the people who though it was acceptable to push people forward just because they were in a crowd and anonymous.

I think the problem people are having is with the above. You can't tell a thousand people instantly in that situation to stop moving forward. It was impossible. People got crushed to death because the people from the back had no idea what was going on at the front.

There can't be any blame on the people who moved forward. They weren't psychic. They couldn't have known what was happening. This is why the responsibility is on the event organisers to ensure that the crowd are kept safe, even from each other.

The Police had a duty of care to the people there that day.
They should have known what opening one gate would have caused.
They should have known opening a gate into an already mostly full area would have caused this.
They should have tried sooner to stop the flow or people or started helping people over the barriers.
They should have opened the gate to the pitch to allow people to move out of the crush and into the area.
They should not have carried out a cover up that directly blamed the victims as the cause of all of this.

The logic behind the decision to open a single gate makes no sense. They were worried about a riot starting as there were hundreds of fans still outside when the game was about to start. The Police opened a single gate, instead of several as to even the pressure, to let people in side. With no police of officials to manage the people going through, this was a death trap. A Death trap created by carelessness.

 

[iamblades]

I think the problem people are having is with the above. You can't tell a thousand people instantly in that situation to stop moving forward. It was impossible. People got crushed to death because the people from the back had no idea what was going on at the front.

There can't be any blame on the people who moved forward. They weren't psychic. They couldn't have known what was happening. This is why the responsibility is on the event organisers to ensure that the crowd are kept safe, even from each other.

The Police had a duty of care to the people there that day.
They should have known what opening one gate would have caused.
They should have known opening a gate into an already mostly full area would have caused this.
They should have tried sooner to stop the flow or people or started helping people over the barriers.
They should have opened the gate to the pitch to allow people to move out of the crush and into the area.
They should not have carried out a cover up that directly blamed the victims as the cause of all of this.

The logic behind the decision to open a single gate makes no sense. They were worried about a riot starting as there were hundreds of fans still outside when the game was about to start. The Police opened a single gate, instead of several as to even the pressure, to let people in side. With no police of officials to manage the people going through, this was a death trap. A Death trap created by carelessness.

Is that really the issue though? You might not be able to tell a thousand people to stop moving, but you can tell the people at the back not to just ram into the people stopped on front of them. You may not be able to know the people at the end of the crush are dying, but you can know that the people directly in front of you have stopped.

Also not disputing the responsibility everyone from the architects to the even planners to the police have in failing to prevent the tragedy.

I also admit that my ideas may be a bit theoretical and philosophical for such an emotional issue, especially for people who are closer to the event. Nonetheless I think it is worth looking at the cultural factors that lead to these situations, even if these are actually fundamental to humanity and can't be changed.

 

[Ithil]

Turning a case of a human crush caused by traceable, evident errors by police and stadium planners into some kind of chatter about the philosophy of crowds does not make any sense to me.

This was not caused by any cultural factors, it was caused by human error. Those errors were covered up and denied by the humans that made them, and now they have officially been exposed by the law.