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[IntentionalPun]

It will render the image better on pc proportionally to the power of the gpu, and when large assets are streamed like in the diving session of the old demo, it will load them at full detail better on ps5 proportionally to the capacity of the I/O interface. When there will be SSDs speedy enough to overcame the bottleneck-free I/O of ps5 (or when a pc gamer will use tons of ram to load the game entirely in it), PCs will have the edge in that also.
It's just mathematics. As of now, if you don't use huge quantities of ram, I/Os on pc are not able to reach the same speed (which is not the simple speed of the ssd, but the whole speed made possible by eliminating I/O bottlenecks).
Obviously, rendering is always on sceen, while intensive use of I/O is used only when needed and only if a developer creates something that requires it.

How much data do you think the diving session in the "old demo" needed?

This video contradicts the idea that it was much data at all...

Beyond that PC has DirectStorage + things like RTX I/O coming.. UE5 is also not out until 2022...

 

[Black_Stride]

This thread has already become a death field.

BlueXImpulse and muteZX have been perm'd....Lol

Having a Ferrari doesn't mean you go 200Mph in traffic. Data output and data throughput is 2 different things. Until direct storage is standard across all PC, no PC dev will capitalize on it. Ps5 is way ahead of PC for data throughput on an applicable game development standpoint.

You make it sound hard to list in rec spec Windows 10 20HX for a game to run.
DirectStorage is going to be a part of windows so all devs have to do is force the version of windows that comes with DirectStorage as a minspec.

Look at how Windows 10 Creators Update became min spec for a bunch of games....devs just need to that with whatever version of Windows will have DirectStorage as standard.....have an SSD as minspec as well and you are pretty much sorted.
Heck Nanite requires a ~GTX 1080 as minspec right now....so you already know by the time a bunch of Unreal Engine 5 games are hitting the market using Nanite, devs will have pretty high minspecs.

 

[Fredrik]

Correct...within the editor, is something else then running everything enabled with all mechanics.

Just look at how the performance drops when he starts playing the demo:

You can’t look at the engine performance by looking at the editor view in a video. Download the free demo and try it for yourself instead. You can show the fps directly in the editor view:

This is 30fps capped on a Ryzen 7 3800x+1080ti PC, 40 uncapped with drops to 35. There is one point in the droid scene where I can get drops to like 27fps if I point the camera at a specific point to the left of the droid rubble after the ”fight”, no idea what triggers it.

Everybody should play around with this though. Full of jank and scripted to the max but still interesting.

Haven’t tried lowering settings yet so no idea how far I’d have to go to get it up to 60, I’ll try experimenting a bit, 30fps is too low imo.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Here's RTX IO, that'll utilize DirectStorage when it's out, for those wondering where PC is going w/ the SSD driven tech:

Very little data going to the CPU, the rest going to GPU, fast decompression by the GPU..

PS5 is ahead of it's time, but it's also ahead of games being able to do much about it.

This is also the direction PC has been going with or without Sony's design.

 

[SLB1904]

This was yesterday. Tim Sweeny is a long time liar/hype man.

putting cerny in the same page as tim lol

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Didn't know his hobby is being a clown aside from being a professional CEO and founder of Epic Games and Unreal Engine. Extremely unprofessional and disgusting.

To be fair, Tim has always been a clown.

 

[ABnormal]

How much data do you think the diving session in the "old demo" needed?

This video contradicts the idea that it was much data at all...

Beyond that PC has DirectStorage + things like RTX I/O coming.. UE5 is also not out until 2022...

I don't remember the weight of the full demo, but it was quite heavy. The memoty usage is AT ONCE only six Gigabytes, but the full demo was much heavier, or at least I somehow remember.
In any case, the point is not how much the demo weighted. The point is that UE5 is built to support any streaming speed, and so it will allow developers using it to do basically all they want. Using it or not, it's on their hands. But the important thing is that we have, finally, an I/O interface which is able to stream heavy assets and construct the image in the brief time you turn around. And that allows for any level design a developer can imagine. So, finally, "imagination is the only limit", now.
Well, time and money are, too


Edit: the demo is actually weighting a little more than 6 GBs in its compressed form. Which is awesome, and really bode well for the possible detail usable in a full game (in this gen, the limit is not the ram or power. Rather, it's the size of games and SSDs).

 

[harmny]

Epic CEO Tim Sweeney says the PS5 is so impressive it’s ‘going to help drive future PCs’

Epic and Sony have been working closely together, and Sweeney is impressed.

www.theverge.com

PS5 Storage Speed 'Overall Performance Much Higher Than PC,' Says Tim Sweeney - PlayStation Universe

Epic's Tim Sweeney has offered further insight as to why the PS5 storage speed is superior to tech available on PC.

www.psu.com

PS5 Storage Outclasses Anything Available on PC: Tim Sweeney - ExtremeTech

The PlayStation 5's storage solution is supposedly better than anything on the PC market. Even if true, that's a great thing for PC gaming.

www.extremetech.com

PS5’s SSD Ahead Of Even “Best” Current High-End PCs, Says Tim Sweeney

gamingbolt.com

Yes, I'm to blame now, right?

100% to blame and you are back to the embarassing posts

linking 20 articles about how sweeney says that the ps5 storage solution is faster than anything on pc when that may very well be true

what he never said was that the demo couldn't run on anything else. in fact he said the opposite. he said that the demo was the culmination of years of discussions between sony and epic on future graphics and storage architectures AND that the nanite and lumen tech powering it WILL BE FULLY SUPPORTED ON BOTH PS5 AND XSX and will be awesome on both. And high end PCs

does that sound like the demo can only run on a ps5?

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Nothing you are saying makes sense to what is happening in developing hardware currently? CHiplet design is being used to literally put 200mb of cache on the same dye as the cpu. This also combined with infinity cache and possible chiplet being used going forward for gpu's are designs specific for mitigating this issue of needing insane amounts of vram.

The whole point of the decrompressor chip and I/O solution in PS5 is to mitigate the need for insane amounts of vram and dedicated core usage off of the cpu for decompressing of data as it gets streamed to vram. The customizations creates a environment where the ssd is looked at as a giant pool of virtual memory that can cull in an instant to the vram/gpu.
RDN3 and 4 are going to have those similar designs. You will possibly see a seperate chip on these cpu/gpu's that literally will be used for such in the near future. The V-CACHE is a peek into this concept that will evolve over time with direct storage.

If you can't follow that then you have no clue wtf you are talking about. VRAM is a issue currently. Which is the reason the 3080ti literally is within a close enough percentage of being same cuda core count, and rendering capabilities compared to the 3090 which has double the vram.
VRAM especially custom GDDR6X is expensive to put on a board. The larger of stacks you go the more real-estate you require or new stacking ability similar to how HBM works in stacks of 4gb now in 16gb.

You think we are going to keep going beyond 16gb of memory for VRAM? GPU' PCB is going to be enormous, making cards hotter, larger and wont be able to get efficiency's we've been seeing in power draw. You cant keep shrinking in dye size but increasing memory and not still have issues with power phases that require a good amount of power.
Memory efficiency's is why NVME usage have skyrocketed in such a short amount of time. Bandwidth is king. Soon NVME/DYE cache/vram will have this effect in how they are being used across the industry. PS5 shows what you can do with focusing on those efficiency's.
These changes are happening not because of gaming. Imagine renders for films, projects being done in half the time at 4k-8k? ANd thats because of streaming those projects that get cached will have better flow and alleviate the VRAM needing to be enormous in render cards.

I'm no expert but from how I understand chip design to work the cache size increases go way beyond reducing VRAM requirements. Also, who was arguing that fast storage wasn't a bottleneck of previous generations of PC builds & consoles?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

To be fair, Tim has always been a clown.

Not familiar with his BS. Like I said before, never given a thought about tech behind gaming before signing up here.

Also, Nanite is our least concern here as it seems pretty light on the GPU, but Lumen getting HW acceleration would left so much performance from the GPU. And I'm really shocked that it makes both RT GI and RT shadows (16K according to Eurogamer) which is insane! Now can we see reflections as efficient as LocalRay by Adshir?






Crazy stuff!

 

[Bladed Thesis]

100% to blame and you are back to the embarassing posts

linking 20 articles about how sweeney says that the ps5 storage solution is faster than anything on pc when that may very well be true

what he never said was that the demo couldn't run on anything else. in fact he said the opposite. he said that the demo was the culmination of years of discussions between sony and epic on future graphics and storage architectures AND that the nanite and lumen tech powering it WILL BE FULLY SUPPORTED ON BOTH PS5 AND XSX and will be awesome on both. And high end PCs

does that sound like the demo can only run on a ps5?

Let it go. No need to continue the hostilities. He gets it now, you've had your told you so moment.

 

[Mod of War]

Let it go. No need to continue the hostilities. He gets it now, you've had your told you so moment.

This.

Take it to PMs or drop it and get the thread back on topic.

 

[GuinGuin]

100% to blame and you are back to the embarassing posts

linking 20 articles about how sweeney says that the ps5 storage solution is faster than anything on pc when that may very well be true

what he never said was that the demo couldn't run on anything else. in fact he said the opposite. he said that the demo was the culmination of years of discussions between sony and epic on future graphics and storage architectures AND that the nanite and lumen tech powering it WILL BE FULLY SUPPORTED ON BOTH PS5 AND XSX and will be awesome on both. And high end PCs

does that sound like the demo can only run on a ps5?

Most sensible post in this thread!

Edit: I guess there was an argument going on? Regardless he can be impressed with PS5 and still target all platforms with Unreal 5.

 

[ABnormal]

Here's RTX IO, that'll utilize DirectStorage when it's out, for those wondering where PC is going w/ the SSD driven tech:

PS5 is ahead of it's time, but it's also ahead of games being able to do much about it.

That is the sad truth. If only they had the courage to sacrifice immediate gains to develop on ps5-only, showing it since the beginning...

But anyway, on PCs, much time will be needed until a significant chunk of gamers population will have hardware like that, justifying developing games around that potential.
On consoles, on the other hand, hardware is the same among all the adopters, so, after this cross-gen first batch of games, we can be sure every exclusive game will be developed around it.

 

[GuinGuin]

That is the sad truth. If only they had the courage to sacrifice immediate gains to develop on ps5-only, showing it since the beginning...

But anyway, on PCs, much time will be needed until a significant chunk of gamers population will have hardware like that, justifying developing games around that potential.
On consoles, on the other hand, hardware is the same among all the adopters, so, after this cross-gen first batch of games, we can be sure every exclusive game will be developed around it.

As great as the PS4 was it was a very safe design meant to appeal to devs with an easy PC like environment. PS3 was also ahead of its time unfortunately cell-like CPUs never took off. PS5 nailed both ease of use and pushing the envelope but this time the PC world is looking to adopt similar advances so it will only see better and better support as the gen goes on. Cerny is truly a genius!

 

[SlimySnake]

Only 6GB of data is very impressive. I was worried when i heard the 100GB figure.

UE5 is going to change game development as we know it. It's a fantastic win for all gamers regardless of platform of choice. The only worry I have is that it is very heavy on the gpu offering only 1440p 30 fps with medium lumen and 1080p 30 fps with higher quality hardware accelerated lumen. what does it mean for the xss? Lower res? lower quality lumen? lower quality nanite?

Regardless, for most console gamers this is going to be a big win as devs will be able to finally have insane realtime graphics produced very very fast. bigger games made quicker.

Sucks to see my fellow PS brethren were wrong about it but in their defense they trusted Tim Sweeney. Never fall for CEOs. Not Sony's or Microsoft and never ever a third party guy like Tim. It's like trusting Bobby Kotick. Even I fell for it, and I question and criticize everything. But I always knew this could be done on the xsx and PCs. This thing scales really well on AMD GPUs so 1620p 30 fps might be possible on the XSX.

 

[MonarchJT]

This.

Take it to PMs or drop it and get the thread back on topic.

agree

 

[Salty Popsicle]

As great as the PS4 was it was a very safe design meant to appeal to devs with an easy PC like environment. PS3 was also ahead of its time unfortunately cell-like CPUs never took off. PS5 nailed both ease of use and pushing the envelope but this time the PC world is looking to adopt similar advances so it will only see better and better support as the gen goes on. Cerny is truly a genius!

SSDs existed before Cerny's PS5 presentation...

 

[ABnormal]

As great as the PS4 was it was a very safe design meant to appeal to devs with an easy PC like environment. PS3 was also ahead of its time unfortunately cell-like CPUs never took off. PS5 nailed both ease of use and pushing the envelope but this time the PC world is looking to adopt similar advances so it will only see better and better support as the gen goes on. Cerny is truly a genius!

I surely agree. Especially on cpu department, ps4 was definitely a safe bet. And still managed to house some of the best looking games ever.

This time it seems that the hardware is flawless, without weak spots, and I'm really curious to see what developer will create in the next years.

Yes, the ability to cram elegantly together as much power and features possible is what defines the engineer ability. Even a monkey is able to spend more money on more powerful gpus or on huge amounts of ram, or other. But the ability is proportional to the cost/benefit ratio, which is the greater on consoles.

 

[RayHell]

This thread has already become a death field.

BlueXImpulse and muteZX have been perm'd....Lol



You make it sound hard to list in rec spec Windows 10 20HX for a game to run.
DirectStorage is going to be a part of windows so all devs have to do is force the version of windows that comes with DirectStorage as a minspec.

Look at how Windows 10 Creators Update became min spec for a bunch of games....devs just need to that with whatever version of Windows will have DirectStorage as standard.....have an SSD as minspec as well and you are pretty much sorted.
Heck Nanite requires a ~GTX 1080 as minspec right now....so you already know by the time a bunch of Unreal Engine 5 games are hitting the market using Nanite, devs will have pretty high minspecs.

Who care what's Direct Storage spec are. It doesn't render everyone mechanical hard drive fast all of sudden. Game dev will only make great use of it when the vast majority of user have a decent drive. Until then they will design their game to support the majority of user.

 

[ABnormal]

SSDs existed before Cerny's PS5 presentation...

And an I/O architecture that eliminates all the SSDs bottlenecks didn't. And that is the point, not your genius comment.

 

[SLB1904]

SSDs existed before Cerny's PS5 presentation...

SSDs alone is worthless.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Only 6GB of data is very impressive. I was worried when i heard the 100GB figure.

UE5 is going to change game development as we know it. It's a fantastic win for all gamers regardless of platform of choice. The only worry I have is that it is very heavy on the gpu offering only 1440p 30 fps with medium lumen and 1080p 30 fps with higher quality hardware accelerated lumen. what does it mean for the xss? Lower res? lower quality lumen? lower quality nanite?

Regardless, for most console gamers this is going to be a big win as devs will be able to finally have insane realtime graphics produced very very fast. bigger games made quicker.

Sucks to see my fellow PS brethren were wrong about it but in their defense they trusted Tim Sweeney. Never fall for CEOs. Not Sony's or Microsoft and never ever a third party guy like Tim. Even I fell for it, and I question and criticize everything. But I always knew this could be done on the xsx and PCs. This thing scales really well on AMD GPUs so 1620p 30 fps might be possible on the XSX.

I'm personally happy that it was a lie. This is great news for gaming. We don't want gaming to be held back because some platforms aren't keeping up. PS5 will still have fun with its insane 17-22GB/s (17-22MB/ms!!!) throughput to be as efficient as possible and be creative with asset diversity.

Now let's fucking get rid of last gen and HDD.

 

[GuinGuin]

SSDs existed before Cerny's PS5 presentation...

PS5 doesn't just feature a super fast SSD they redesigned the entire I/O system to be vastly more efficient. They also added hardware Kraken and Oodle decompression.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Sweeney specifically went out of his way to exaggerate though; and really he outright lied.

But people who know of him know he's a shady asshole, so it's not surprising lol.. he absolutely does despise MS, and has always praised Sony.. and was selling part of his company to them.

The actual info out about UE5 was contradictory to his exaggerations though.. the devs focused on how efficient and scalable it all was, while Sweeney tried to stress the need for high I/O.

Also just the basic logic of "you can't really utilize 5.5GB/second often w/o using way too much drive space" never really had me fully believing the BS myself.

I still see fanboys having no excuse though. I've been on these boards for quite some time and I really honestly try to tell people how things work and I have quite a few friends that work in all areas of games/film. I'm vetted because I literally am in the industry. People at least knew that. If I was a fraud, I would have been dismissed from the forums long ago. I told people the reality of how a rendering pipeline works and what the limitations were. It didn't sink in the fanboy's mind because they wanted so bad to be comfortable about their hardware of choice. So it on death's ears and I was seen to be a troll when in actuality I was being completely factual. It is so frustrating to try like no tomorrow to educate people and get them to put aside their biases and just look at the facts.

 

[SLB1904]

I still see fanboys having no excuse though. I've been on these boards for quite some time and I really honestly try to tell people how things work and I have quite a few friends that work in all areas of games/film. I'm vetted because I literally am in the industry. People at least knew that. If I was a fraud, I would have been dismissed from the forums long ago. I told people the reality of how a rendering pipeline works and what the limitations were. It didn't sink in the fanboy's mind because they wanted so bad to be comfortable about their hardware of choice. So it on death's ears and I was seen to be a troll when in actuality I was being completely factual. It is so frustrating to try like no tomorrow to educate people and get them to put aside their biases and just look at the facts.

you could start by being a little humble. sorry dude

 

[IntentionalPun]

That is the sad truth. If only they had the courage to sacrifice immediate gains to develop on ps5-only, showing it since the beginning...

But anyway, on PCs, much time will be needed until a significant chunk of gamers population will have hardware like that, justifying developing games around that potential.
On consoles, on the other hand, hardware is the same among all the adopters, so, after this cross-gen first batch of games, we can be sure every exclusive game will be developed around it.

For me personally I'm just not enthralled by the use cases presented.. and they'll always only be able to have limited use due to the size of disks.

Ratchet and Clank is less than 3 times the size of the entire RAM available to PS5 games. In a quarter of a second around 5% of the total data of the game could be loaded into RAM....

I believe it is sometimes pushing data around really fast.. and it was probably really easy to accomplish that on PS5, but like any game installed on a ~800GB disk it's not going to be feasible to even HAVE that much data to push around in the first place... and realistically it's not actually often, if ever, "replacing the entire view as you turn your head." Let's say that's 10GB of the RAM for the view.. and there's 3x compression.. 3.3GB of data.. or 10% of the total data stored on disk, for one turn of the head? Unlikely.. unlikely anything anywhere close to that.

And I think any 3rd party game pushing a lot of data around will probably just have high requirements on PC. Those games are already sold to a limited install base of players.. the 100+ million people on PC are playing a wide myriad of games on a myriad of machines, it's not 100+ million people waiting around for the next AAA blockbuster.

I love the idea of it just freeing up the flexibility of level designs and all that.. but again.. INSANE I/O, like the PS5.. isn't really a requirement of that.. it's WAYYY ahead of it's time IMO, and then will be outpaced by PCs soon that will also not really be able to utilize it in a way where it would be "required."

 

[Venom Snake]

After all, it was known from the beginning that the same would work just as well on a pc. I mean why wouldn't it? All of this was created for a reason, for example, to be used by many different artists/developers creating games for various platforms.
The fact that you can achieve great visual effects on the ps5 with it only proves that Sony's cooperation and the clever design of ps5 will allow the use of these new technologies in a console-budget range, and that's it.

 

[MonarchJT]

I still see fanboys having no excuse though. I've been on these boards for quite some time and I really honestly try to tell people how things work and I have quite a few friends that work in all areas of games/film. I'm vetted because I literally am in the industry. People at least knew that. If I was a fraud, I would have been dismissed from the forums long ago. I told people the reality of how a rendering pipeline works and what the limitations were. It didn't sink in the fanboy's mind because they wanted so bad to be comfortable about their hardware of choice. So it on death's ears and I was seen to be a troll when in actuality I was being completely factual. It is so frustrating to try like no tomorrow to educate people and get them to put aside their biases and just look at the facts.

let us use this opportunity to show that sometimes even being right can bury "the battle axe" maybe hoping that one day others will do the same

 

[MonarchJT]

After all, it was known from the beginning that the same would work just as well on a pc. I mean why wouldn't it? All of this was created for a reason, for example, to be used by many different artists/developers creating games for various platforms.
The fact that you can achieve great visual effects on the ps5 with it only proves that Sony's cooperation and the clever design of ps5 will allow the use of these new technologies in a console-budget range, and that's it.

to be precise both consoles.
the xsx would have no problem to run the ps5 demo in the same exact manner ...

 

[Black_Stride]

Who care what's Direct Storage spec are. It doesn't render everyone mechanical hard drive fast all of sudden. Game dev will only make great use of it when the vast majority of user have a decent drive. Until then they will design their game to support the majority of user.

If Nanite requires ~GTX1080 the chances of that same user also having a slow mechanical drive are low.

Else the devs wont bother using Nanite and can have the game run on a mechanical drive.
If you are gonna use all the features of UE5 as is right now, your system needs to be above bottom of the barrel.

You are acting as if MinSpec doesnt climb sometimes drastically every generation.

To put things into perspective a GTX 1080 will walk an RTX 2060.
So basically by the time UE5 games are hitting the market minspec for alot of them will be an RTX 2060, it wouldnt be shocking or out of the question to ask the user to also have a 50-100 dollar SATA SSD in their system as well.

Consider this a 1TB HDD is like 40 - 50 dollars.....a 1TB SSD is 50 - 100 dollars.
Thats a small price to pay to play nextgen games.

If you want to play nextgen games you upgrade your PC, pretty much every time....the only difference is that this generation you are also upgrading your storage to an SSD, which you really should have done years ago....but now devs are just forcing you to.

 

[Snake29]

Only 6GB of data is very impressive. I was worried when i heard the 100GB figure.

UE5 is going to change game development as we know it. It's a fantastic win for all gamers regardless of platform of choice. The only worry I have is that it is very heavy on the gpu offering only 1440p 30 fps with medium lumen and 1080p 30 fps with higher quality hardware accelerated lumen. what does it mean for the xss? Lower res? lower quality lumen? lower quality nanite?

Regardless, for most console gamers this is going to be a big win as devs will be able to finally have insane realtime graphics produced very very fast. bigger games made quicker.

Sucks to see my fellow PS brethren were wrong about it but in their defense they trusted Tim Sweeney. Never fall for CEOs. Not Sony's or Microsoft and never ever a third party guy like Tim. It's like trusting Bobby Kotick. Even I fell for it, and I question and criticize everything. But I always knew this could be done on the xsx and PCs. This thing scales really well on AMD GPUs so 1620p 30 fps might be possible on the XSX.

Sorry but we haven't seen the demo running compiled and playable on the PC YET, so how can Sweeney being wrong? The moment we see this demo on multiple machines running like the PS5 demo, then we can start talking and compare. This is no comparison with last years PS5 demo. This demo was to show the area and assets, not to run all mechanics at the same time and playing it for us with the character from start to finish.

That's the moment you start using all hardware resources. The last part of the PS5 demo would be the benchmark to see how well it runs on different configurations and consoles.

 

[RayHell]

Here's RTX IO, that'll utilize DirectStorage when it's out, for those wondering where PC is going w/ the SSD driven tech:

Very little data going to the CPU, the rest going to GPU, fast decompression by the GPU..

PS5 is ahead of it's time, but it's also ahead of games being able to do much about it.

This is also the direction PC has been going with or without Sony's design.

Well said, that will resolve part of the flow.
People seems to forget that you cannot develop for a specific architecture without the vast majority of machine the required tech.
You need first to have a majority of GPU supporting DirectStorage for decompression, second is to have fast enough storage on all the machine you develop for this kind of architecture, otherwise you rely on a lot of RAM and CPU Cores.
Developer usually target the biggest user base possible, they won't develop a game on an architecture before it become a standard. Which can be long to get on the PC sphere.

 

[SlimySnake]

Sorry but we haven't seen the demo running compiled and playable on the PC YET, so how can Sweeney being wrong? The moment we see this demo on multiple machines running like the PS5 demo, then we can start talking and compare. This is no comparison with last years PS5 demo.

This was running on PC.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Well said, that will resolve part of the flow.
People seems to forget that you cannot develop for a specific architecture without the vast majority of machine the required tech.
You need first to have a majority of GPU supporting DirectStorage for decompression, second is to have fast enough storage on all the machine you develop for this kind of architecture, otherwise you rely on a lot of RAM and CPU Cores.
Developer usually target the biggest user base possible, they won't develop a game on an architecture before it become a standard. Which can be long to get on the PC sphere.

Well we've seen console generation shifts where this wasn't really true though.

AAA games are built largely with console in mind, it's been a long time since a console generation actually pushed something past what PC was doing with mid-range components. When they have in any way, we often just get PC ports that require whatever new thing they have.

I/O is potentially that new push.. but TBH we don't know at this point how much it'll get used by ANYONE really..

But if it is, then AAA 3rd parties are just as likely to just require it for PC. They aren't selling millions of copies day one of AAA games at full price on PC for the most part. They aren't against releasing ports that don't work on most hardware.

It's incredibly likely games will start requiring SSD at bare minimum for instance.. some do.. most at this point recommend it.

DirectStorage along doesn't require a special GPU BTW.. only the decompression stuff.

 

[Venom Snake]

to be precise both consoles.
the xsx would have no problem to run the ps5 demo in the same exact manner ...

Well, yeah. I refer to ps5 only because the whole discussion on the topic started with the ps5 demo.

 

[harmny]

Sorry but we haven't seen the demo running compiled and playable on the PC YET, so how can Sweeney being wrong? The moment we see this demo on multiple machines running like the PS5 demo, then we can start talking and compare. This is no comparison with last years PS5 demo. This demo was to show the area and assets, not to run all mechanics at the same time and playing it for us with the character from start to finish.

That's the moment you start using all hardware resources.

people do know the difference they have been telling you the difference since their first post. but why would i explain it? i can already predict the following 8 posts.

"running the editor is much more taxing than running the compiled demo"

"yes but the editor doesn't have ALL the gameplay mechanics and logic running"

"doesn't matter and what gameplay mechanics? it's just a demo there are bascially no gameplay mechanics just some particles and a girl walking around and climbing. the editor is way more taxing"

"oh but in the ps5 demo the girl was flying at 50mph and in this demo the guy is moving the camera at 30mph"

"yes it doesn't matter. and they have to run the actual demo on a pc to see how it goes or do you think they compile it and run it on a ps5 every time they want to see how some mechanic works?"

"oh but look the editor doesn't have the portal effect at the end! emiting light!"

"yeah it doesn't matter, it's still harder to run the editor. and do you think some random effect and some light is more taxing than moving around in an editor in a room filled with 33 million polygon statues with lumen enabled? you don't need to run the demo this is all the evidence you need"

"until i don't see the exact same demo running on a pc with all the mechanics all i can say is that only ps5 is able to run that demo that well"

my prediction turned out to be right!

If Nanite requires ~GTX1080 the chances of that same user also having a slow mechanical drive are low.

Else the devs wont bother using Nanite and can have the game run on a mechanical drive.
If you are gonna use all the features of UE5 as is right now, your system needs to be above bottom of the barrel.

You are acting as if MinSpec doesnt climb sometimes drastically every generation.

To put things into perspective a GTX 1080 will walk an RTX 2060.
So basically by the time UE5 games are hitting the market minspec for alot of them will be an RTX 2060, it wouldnt be shocking or out of the question to ask the user to also have a 50-100 dollar SATA SSD in their system as well.

Consider this a 1TB HDD is like 40 - 50 dollars.....a 1TB SSD is 50 - 100 dollars.
Thats a small price to pay to play nextgen games.

If you want to play nextgen games you upgrade your PC, pretty much every time....the only difference is that this generation you are also upgrading your storage to an SSD, which you really should have done years ago....but now devs are just forcing you to.

yes at this point if you play on pc you'll probably need an SSD for next gen games. star citizen and cyberpunk already suck on a HDD

 

[ABnormal]

For me personally I'm just not enthralled by the use cases presented.. and they'll always only be able to have limited use due to the size of disks.

Ratchet and Clank is less than 3 times the size of the entire RAM available to PS5 games. In a quarter of a second around 5% of the total data of the game could be loaded into RAM....

I believe it is sometimes pushing data around really fast.. and it was probably really easy to accomplish that on PS5, but like any game installed on a ~800GB disk it's not going to be feasible to even HAVE that much data to push around in the first place... and realistically it's not actually often, if ever, "replacing the entire view as you turn your head." Let's say that's 10GB of the RAM for the view.. and there's 3x compression.. 3.3GB of data.. or 10% of the total data stored on disk, for one turn of the head? Unlikely.. unlikely anything anywhere close to that.

And I think any 3rd party game pushing a lot of data around will probably just have high requirements on PC. Those games are already sold to a limited install base of players.. the 100+ million people on PC are playing a wide myriad of games on a myriad of machines, it's not 100+ million people waiting around for the next AAA blockbuster.

I love the idea of it just freeing up the flexibility of level designs and all that.. but again.. INSANE I/O, like the PS5.. isn't really a requirement of that.. it's WAYYY ahead of it's time IMO, and then will be outpaced by PCs soon that will also not really be able to utilize it in a way where it would be "required."

That is true. In this gen the limit is not the power, nor the ram, nor the I/O. Everything is flawless. The real limit is the size of games and of SSD.

But anyway, clever reusage of assets (like in the UE5 demo), use of less complex assets for the parts where you don't spend much time looking, lack of need for asset repetition on disk, and more efficient compression, will allow a huge gain of avaliable space, and the possibility of limitless detail.
At least, from a technical standpoint. Time and money will still be important limiting factors.

I do not agree that the hardware is ahead of it's time. Having it allows for easier and faster development in many areas, and one of the bigger problems of game development is the increasing cost of games. But this time, thanks to far better tools and engines, and thanks to SSDs, development costs may not increase significantly, compared to last gen. Any step in that direction is extremely important for the industry as a whole. It's not just a graphical or technical matter.

 

[jose4gg]

This conversation again and again...

- I will wait for the first full UE5 game, when assets in PS5 are bigger and more detailed than the competition except for maybe a PC with an excess amount of RAM and VRAM then you will understand PS5, until that point, keep talking the same thing over and over again...

My God, nothing more sensitive than a PC Master Race...

Btw, Direct Storage is supposed to do exactly what PS5 I/O does without the hardware decompressor, is that an MS lie and a Nvidea lie too? How does it work?

 

[Snake29]

This was running on PC.

Omg, are some really that braindead? YES it's running on the PC inside the editor, but it's just editor mode not gameplay mode or compiled.

You have no idea what you are talking about. In editor mode you don't use game mechanics at all which only become active once you have your scene compiled where at that moment you release all features including physics, I/O, animation, destruction, different and dynamic lighting, sound vfx.

It is not difficult at all to understand that in editor mode all these features are not called upon, so you can't use that as a benchmark against the PS5 demo because we need to see the exact same demo running on the PC, and only then can we follow the difference in performance. You can only start optimizing after you have seen how your code runs with all the features. In editor mode you can't see that and it's not a benchmark...

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

Guess we can halt the production of Nvidia IO and Direct Storage as a simple NVMe drive is all you need for next gen.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I do not agree that the hardware is ahead of it's time. Having it allows for easier and faster development in many areas, and one of the bigger problems of game development is the increasing cost of games. But this time, thanks to far better tools and engines, and thanks to SSDs, development costs may not increase significantly, compared to last gen. Any step in that direction is extremely important for the industry as a whole. It's not just a graphical or technical matter.

For sure; I meant ahead of it's time as far as that amount of I/O being able to be used consistently at runtime from a "we designed a game around it" standpoint. There will be use cases, like big set pieces... or crazy "fast" moving areas (largely on rails probably).. I'm just not excited by those. They'll use several gigabytes for a brief flashy gameplay segment that I could personally do without (I'm more of a "give me a level full of baddies and a world simulation I can approach in many ways" kinda guy.)

Like I said; it makes game dev easier.. it frees up creativity.. the need to optimize the data in a scene, etc, which like you also said speeds up dev time, and lowers costs.

And tools are getting better too.. so yeah, more games can have great detailed graphics without the need for massive budgets.. it's good stuff.

We just aren't going to see that "you turn your head and the view is replace" thing for a long time in any meaningful way.. lol

I think PS5 is fantastic either way.. so fucking fast at everything.. cross-gen games look gorgeous, etc.

Now Sony.. make some damn games that utilize that CPU please lol

 

[SlimySnake]

Omg, are some really that braindead? YES it's running on the PC inside the editor, but it's just editor mode not gameplay mode or compiled.

You have no idea what you are talking about. In editor mode you don't use game mechanics at all which only become active once you have your scene compiled where at that moment you release all features including physics, I/O, animation, destruction, different and dynamic lighting, sound vfx.

It is not difficult at all to understand that in editor mode all these features are not called upon, so you can't use that as a benchmark against the PS5 demo because we need to see the exact same demo running on the PC, and only then can we follow the difference in performance. You can only start optimizing after you have seen how your code runs with all the features. In editor mode you can't see that and it's not a benchmark...

Nah. It will run just fine in gameplay mode or compiled mode or whatever mode. Those things are not that big of a hit and there is nothing stopping PC GPUs from running the demo with physics, animation, destruction and different time of day.

He literally had the whole thing loaded in vram. all 6GB of it. there is really nothing here that is taxing the ssd or the i/o. literally the entire level is already in memory.

 

[ABnormal]

For sure; I meant ahead of it's time as far as that amount of I/O being able to be used consistently at runtime from a "we designed a game around it" standpoint. There will be use cases, like big set pieces... or crazy "fast" moving areas (largely on rails probably).. I'm just not excited by those. They'll use several gigabytes for a brief flashy gameplay segment that I could personally do without (I'm more of a "give me a level full of baddies and a world simulation I can approach in many ways" kinda guy.)

Like I said; it makes game dev easier.. it frees up creativity.. the need to optimize the data in a scene, etc, which like you also said speeds up dev time, and lowers costs.

And tools are getting better too.. so yeah, more games can have great detailed graphics without the need for massive budgets.. it's good stuff.

We just aren't going to see that "you turn your head and the view is replace" thing for a long time in any meaningful way.. lol

It really depends by what the devs will want to do.

For example, with this technology, you can create a VR game where you are some God, looking after a world and its population (like Actraiser, if you are old enough ).

Then you can imagine the map of, say, Skyrim, looked from the clouds, with the possibility to look at it like a diorama (I'm just talking of domensions, not a stylized look), and having at any time the possibility to lower you head from the clouds to the ground, or in a totally different area of the world, being able to go from the clouds to the fine detail and characters and AIs on the ground, just seamlessly, interacting seamlessly with general weather time from far above, and the second after, interacting specifically with an npc (or a humen player, if the game is a MMO or similar). This is not even remotely possible with current technology (it would need the loading for the "fast travel" every time you dive on the ground or in another area.
It's only matter of imagination. I think the biggest problem is that the majority of gamers are not able to imagine mechanics and freedom different from what they have experienced in the past four generations.
But some devs will, and they will produce the games that will define the generation.

 

[DonJuanSchlong]

Omg, are some really that braindead? YES it's running on the PC inside the editor, but it's just editor mode not gameplay mode or compiled.

You have no idea what you are talking about. In editor mode you don't use game mechanics at all which only become active once you have your scene compiled where at that moment you release all features including physics, I/O, animation, destruction, different and dynamic lighting, sound vfx.

It is not difficult at all to understand that in editor mode all these features are not called upon, so you can't use that as a benchmark against the PS5 demo because we need to see the exact same demo running on the PC, and only then can we follow the difference in performance. You can only start optimizing after you have seen how your code runs with all the features. In editor mode you can't see that and it's not a benchmark...

Nah. It will run just fine in gameplay mode or compiled mode or whatever mode. Those things are not that big of a hit and there is nothing stopping PC GPUs from running the demo with physics, animation, destruction and different time of day.

He literally had the whole thing loaded in vram. all 6GB of it. there is really nothing here that is taxing the ssd or the i/o. literally the entire level is already in memory.

Exactly. But then again, he chooses to ignore all logic or people with knowledge of the topic. Oh well.

 

[iQuasarLV]

Is clustering going to finally get rid of reused textures? God I hope so.

Is the engine or the designer spending time on those assets for every level of the cluster?

 

[RayHell]

If Nanite requires ~GTX1080 the chances of that same user also having a slow mechanical drive are low.

Else the devs wont bother using Nanite and can have the game run on a mechanical drive.
If you are gonna use all the features of UE5 as is right now, your system needs to be above bottom of the barrel.

You are acting as if MinSpec doesnt climb sometimes drastically every generation.

To put things into perspective a GTX 1080 will walk an RTX 2060.
So basically by the time UE5 games are hitting the market minspec for alot of them will be an RTX 2060, it wouldnt be shocking or out of the question to ask the user to also have a 50-100 dollar SATA SSD in their system as well.

Consider this a 1TB HDD is like 40 - 50 dollars.....a 1TB SSD is 50 - 100 dollars.
Thats a small price to pay to play nextgen games.

If you want to play nextgen games you upgrade your PC, pretty much every time....the only difference is that this generation you are also upgrading your storage to an SSD, which you really should have done years ago....but now devs are just forcing you to.

Which one are they forcing Sata SSD? M.2 at 2gb/s ? M.2 at 7Mb/s ?
Are you planning to port the game on older console, Mac of Linux or mobile ?

All this can cripple the decision for big studios to go the full DirectStorage tech stack. I'm pretty sure Epic will take that risk as other Studio will go a more traditional route for now.

While on closed architecture like consoles there's nothing stopping you.

 

[SLB1904]

Is clustering going to finally get rid of reused textures? God I hope so.

Is the engine or the designer spending time on those assets for every level of the cluster?

i think you will start to see a lot of procedurally generated stuff in the future.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Sorry but we haven't seen the demo running compiled and playable on the PC YET, so how can Sweeney being wrong? The moment we see this demo on multiple machines running like the PS5 demo, then we can start talking and compare. This is no comparison with last years PS5 demo. This demo was to show the area and assets, not to run all mechanics at the same time and playing it for us with the character from start to finish.

That's the moment you start using all hardware resources. The last part of the PS5 demo would be the benchmark to see how well it runs on different configurations and consoles.

To be completely honest, none of us have actually seen that demo running on a PS5 in front of us. We havent seen someone holding a dualsense and walking around playing that demo. We just havea video saying "captured in real time on PS5" which in all honesty HAD to be an early dev kit as it was a year ago...which pretty much will have been the PC with a 5700 XT we saw leaked from the AMD documents.

Until I see someone with a dualsense and a PS5 playing that demo I don't believe it was on PS5 either.

 

[Haggard]

Omg, are some really that braindead? YES it's running on the PC inside the editor, but it's just editor mode not gameplay mode or compiled.

You have no idea what you are talking about. In editor mode you don't use game mechanics at all which only become active once you have your scene compiled where at that moment you release all features including physics, I/O, animation, destruction, different and dynamic lighting, sound vfx.

It is not difficult at all to understand that in editor mode all these features are not called upon, so you can't use that as a benchmark against the PS5 demo because we need to see the exact same demo running on the PC, and only then can we follow the difference in performance. You can only start optimizing after you have seen how your code runs with all the features. In editor mode you can't see that and it's not a benchmark...