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iPlaywinner Article: What is it that makes for enjoyable commentary?
- Thread starter Fersis
- Start date
zlatko said:
Thanks, although I wouldn't even try putting myself on the same class as the guys who are doing it at every major. I do it from UFO because I have to, and you are right, I'm too busy running stuff to really focus on talking about matches. Maybe I'll give it a try some time.
Anyway I am friends IRL with Mr Jared but I hate to see people getting indirectly shit on, since anybody reading the article knows he is hating on ski for getting too hype on commentary. Personally I am a big fan of skisonic commentary as well all the other guys, and I think everyone has stuff they can focus on and improve. But I would never put someone on the spot like that on a site that is getting so many hits a day. We gotta love our fellow FGC members.
I agree. Personally, I think the overall organization and lack of information is more than or as impairing as the actual commentary.ThatCrazyGuy said:
This is my first year watching streams and I have caught events here and there and was disappointed when EVO came because it seemed basically like any other event just with a bigger hall full of people. I was expecting way better information regarding what was happening.
My personal gripe is how there might be more time streaming anything other than actual matches. When your match lasts 1 min and you have 2 min till the next one because nobody knows who's gonna fight or the fighters aren't there to fight, it gets boring pretty fast. I quickly realized trying to watch an event live was a waste of my time and went for archives instead, where I can just skip to the matches. Top 8s are sometimes a little better regarding this, but they still mostly leave the spectator completely in the dark about the bigger picture.
Windom Earle
Banned
People that should be avoided:
Skisonic
Keits
Derry + Magus1234
East Coast is usually godlike, even though the Evo illuminati are against it and banned all the Sp00ky spirit from Evo!
Skisonic
Keits
Derry + Magus1234
East Coast is usually godlike, even though the Evo illuminati are against it and banned all the Sp00ky spirit from Evo!
MEET ME SOMEWHERE! >8(schennmu said:People that should be avoided:
Skisonic
Keits
Derry + Magus1234
East Coast is usually godlike, even though the Evo illuminati are against it and banned all the Sp00ky spirit from Evo!
Yes i enjoy James Chen and Skisonic commentary. Sue me.
...
* Gets sued by UltraDavid *
fubarduck said:
Ryan,
He's not calling out SkiSonic, or Yipes, or any specific group of people as you intimated elsewhere. He's calling out the FGC in general and trying to force us to take a critical look at how we handle commentary on streams and step our game up.
It wasn't because of SkiSonic or anything that happened this weekend, though, from my discussions with Jared about this, he was prompted to act due to watching SB and some SC2 streams at the same time over the weekend and just being floored at the drastic difference in the quality of the commentary on both streams.
This is also something that's been bugging him for a long time, so it's not like he just suddenly decided to call out the FGC for having relatively low-level commentary.
It's off-putting to people who are unfamiliar or completely new to the scene when they hear commentary like what the FGC puts forward; it's somewhat exclusionary, both in the sense that it assumes prior knowledge and because of the "in-group, out-group" factor.
fubarduck said:
This is an interesting theory. In reality, if I'm calling out anyone, it's everyone, myself included (Not that I really do commentary. Once in a blue moon.) which is why I lumped in iPlayWinner in with everyone else. We come from the same scene. I've personally been guilty of everything I say is wrong with FGC commentary at least once (and probably way more) in my life. It's time to embrace the blame and for everyone to step up their game. I'm doing my part as you are yours.
kazuo said:
Again, I'd love to hear some of this amazing commentary that doesn't assume prior knowledge, because I tried watching a Starcraft and DOTA 2 stream and had to close it after 10 minutes because the commentary sounded like another language to me.
Is fighting game commentary really that exclusionary? How so?
schennmu said:People that should be avoided:
Skisonic
Keits
Derry + Magus1234
East Coast is usually godlike, even though the Evo illuminati are against it and banned all the Sp00ky spirit from Evo!
MEET ME SOMEWHERE ... after Fersis.
NOTHING compares to the two of them on the mic at the old keystone streams. I went and bought my first double down from KFC because of them, and they are god like.
The amount of time in a typical fighting game match is significantly less than a Star Craft match. Its much more dificult to provide play by play and explain terms for newer players and also provide insignt into the players themselves.
Comparing "#ESports" to FGC is flawed. Apples to oranges imo.
Comparing "#ESports" to FGC is flawed. Apples to oranges imo.
Terareflection
Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAbFKzQN4KgN4Us said:
So good, I am always for commentators that entertaining. Like Aris.
kazuo said:
I respect that opinion, but who is he saying "constantly, incoherently screams" (twitter) in the FGC? Why hide it? Why not just name names. I would certainly like to know who "constantly, incoherently screams" if he doesn't think it's skisonic. Or who is screaming "ICE CREAM" at the top of their lungs . . . etc.
Why is he using phrases like that if he doesn't think one of the fighting game commentators is guilty of it? Could have easily omitted those parts if it was actually just an introspective on FGC commentary in general.
And yeah, we all need to step our game up. Lord Haunts always on point.
Anth0ny said:
DOTA 2 is definitely hard to just jump into. Starcraft 2 though? I guess it depends who it is. Tasteless and Artosis do a great job of tossing in some 4-1-1 for noobies, but as with watching any game at a pro level you have to have some knowledge of the game to understand its lingo. Fighting games have it easier though, because even without knowing what a FADC OTG 1 frame link is, you can still follow a health bar and see a flashy animation or a big combo to get excited over it.
DryEyeRelief
Member
zlatko said:
The old keystone streams ended up turning off a lot people. iirc, mr jared included.
There's a lot of love for Yipes here too, but he wasn't on commentary stream station at Evo. If this is all about pushing it into mainstream focus, what content is "appropriate" for stream commentary?
What makes wrestling commentary great? A great play-by-play man and color commentator (he doesn't have to be a heel)
UltraDavid to me is best play-by-play man. You just need a good color guy/heel commentator.
Maybe have commentators rotate based on the game, maybe retired champs and stuff.
UltraDavid to me is best play-by-play man. You just need a good color guy/heel commentator.
Maybe have commentators rotate based on the game, maybe retired champs and stuff.
The only really irritating thing about the FGC to me is overuse of certain phrases, i mean hearing the commentators call people salty, seeing a stream chat full of salt pictures, and the fact that mortons tshirts exist etc, it really has nothing to do with fighting games and nobody was saying this stuff until 2009 or so. I even remember being confused at an 'i got next' trailer where dogface iirc said " i bodied god, he's free," and people are STILL saying the same stuff, i'm just used to in-jokes being created, used and deleted at a much faster rate. It's funny to see how one region develops their slang, not so funny when everyone is trying to sound like yipes or whatever, tho i don't blame yipes or dogface. People need to get their own style.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Terareflection said:
That vid is pretty funny, haha.
DryEyeRelief said:
Right, but that wasn't a major. That was just drinking and gaming. There definitely needs to be a little bit more of and up and up at a major.
Also, here's some good stuff of Tasteless and Artosis just making some jokes. This is a month summary of some of their funnier moments, but a lot of the game is spent to discussing and analyzing. Artosis is usually the brains, and Tasteless is goofs. It works brilliantly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stEqmANV1NQ
Isn't part of the problem that starcraft/dota tournaments are professionally managed while fighter tournaments are run by fans? Fight cards, up to date brackets that are kept up to date as the tourney progresses are kinda critical for a commentator to do a good job and be up to date and I get the sense that these are rarely available
Azih said:
Depends on the tournament.
MLG for example the people who come out to commentate are people from the community that made a name for themselves as commentators. As for the bracket info for people at MLG the commentators aren't always up to speed on everyone since a LOT of people are playing at any given time. Also, MLG SC2 streams have more than one stream going on for SC2, and each has their own commentators.
LeonSKennedy90
Banned
CPS2 said:
salty swag blown up based god on blast expooooooooosed x infinity
LeonSKennedy90
Banned
Evilore, the last remaining member of EMP. I heard he demanded a trade to Team Spooky
Not sure how practical this would be, but it'd look really pro if the video streamers had some transitions that show the brackets and zoom in to show the current match. It can be hard to follow and using another window for challonge is fine, but not like the experience you'd get watching tv. Some other transitions could include player profiles, or very short, very clear explanations of techniques like crouch techs or safe jumps or punishing frame disadvantage etc. There's a fair bit that could be added, but i like where the play by play is now, i don't think it really needs improving on the whole.
DryEyeRelief
Member
zlatko said:
Why just majors? This article is directed to fighting game broadcasting in its entirety:
"Despite this leap in awareness, the earliest of commentary for the most part wasn't necessarily for an audience, but for our own amusement. We were taking the playful banter from the event and piping it into a hot mic. We were using it as a new avenue to give our friends a hard time for making their way to the chat room but not the venue itself. We were a bunch of grown-ass kids who found a new toy to play with and it just so happened we were okay with sharing it."
I'm not a fighting games player, I play SC and HoN like 10 hour per week, but I can't watch a stream of this games for more than 10 minutes I get bored quickly but with the figthing games streams is another history. Last EVO I was literally camping in front of my screen the whole weekend, same with the seasons beatings last weekend. The games, the commentary are so good and easy to watch. I have no problems with some insight coments about the game but what I enjoy the most is the hype they make. Please don't change!.
DryEyeRelief said:
Because not even the SC2 community does this for non majors? Joking around and cursing is shit they do too.
As someone who is partaking in media from both the FGC and SC2, I can say they are more similar than they are different when it comes to the people you are exposed to. The major differences come at the major events and how SC2 definitely has a more stream lined professional approach.
Shows like State of the Game are designed for SC2 to make stupid jokes and talk about the game as well as other shit. Incontrol doing native american impersanations is like Yipes doing a John Madden one.
The most popular streamer for SC2 is guy who has spewed racial slurs and a lot of idiotic shit while he plays. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Destiny That's him here right now.
Edit: Seems Destiny finally shut up after talking non stop for about 3 hours lol.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
First thing first. Good commentary will come from a person keeping it real with him/herself and just live the moment, and project that to the viewers. Dont force things, and fake hype.
Second, listening to a duo commentate has to feel like they are two friends just honestly trying to figure out whats happening in the game and having a good times at it. Again not sounding forced.
how much you curse or not, yell or not, funny or not doesn't matter
fitting these IMO:
Arthuro - pretty much every game he likes and knows he commentates, he does a good job, in both hype and knowledge.
Hu & Aqua - They're entertaining, ridiculous, they learn from each other and it sounds natural.
Skisonic & Ultradavid - they both know their shit overall. They're not "funny haha" but again they're themselves and do a solid job.
Yipes & Matrix - they entertaining to listen to with weird terminologies, and again, pretty real. He'll straight say a match is boring when it is, but brings the hype when its there.
Ryan Hunter I never not learn something new watching a session with that guy commentating
there are other good ones but those example came to mind...
Second, listening to a duo commentate has to feel like they are two friends just honestly trying to figure out whats happening in the game and having a good times at it. Again not sounding forced.
how much you curse or not, yell or not, funny or not doesn't matter
fitting these IMO:
Arthuro - pretty much every game he likes and knows he commentates, he does a good job, in both hype and knowledge.
Hu & Aqua - They're entertaining, ridiculous, they learn from each other and it sounds natural.
Skisonic & Ultradavid - they both know their shit overall. They're not "funny haha" but again they're themselves and do a solid job.
Yipes & Matrix - they entertaining to listen to with weird terminologies, and again, pretty real. He'll straight say a match is boring when it is, but brings the hype when its there.
Ryan Hunter I never not learn something new watching a session with that guy commentating
there are other good ones but those example came to mind...
If this thread has been great for anything, it has led me to more of these awesome videos of Tastless and Artosis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb3QlTTS2vY&feature=related
7 minutes of lulz. xD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb3QlTTS2vY&feature=related
7 minutes of lulz. xD
I've always loved the commentary by Haunts and Magus1234 in this match(Ricky vs Vangief). Informative and entertaining.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Magus and Darry are godlike. If I had a billion dollars I'd fly them out to every event imaginable just to hear them talk shit.
But I do think they should tone it down a notch when they're doing major events.
But I do think they should tone it down a notch when they're doing major events.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
As long as the people on the mic aren't constantly berating the games or the players in the action (which is thankfully rare at majors and most of the big weeklies), I honestly don't care what they say.
The only exception being Sessler during Evo 2010, who was so woefully uninformed that he ended up being extremely distracting.
The only exception being Sessler during Evo 2010, who was so woefully uninformed that he ended up being extremely distracting.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I'm always worried about corporate-friendly commentary. Crazy non-sequitor laden stuff like this wouldn't fly like if that got too strong.
^^^
This. Again and again, THIS. "Salty" and "Based God" were so funny...when they were said by actually witty people. I think of it as old school Sportscenter vs Sportscenter from a few years back. One is dropping fresh phrases cuz that's what they do, and wanna-bes hunt for a hit, then run it into the fucking ground.
CPS2 said:
^^^
This. Again and again, THIS. "Salty" and "Based God" were so funny...when they were said by actually witty people. I think of it as old school Sportscenter vs Sportscenter from a few years back. One is dropping fresh phrases cuz that's what they do, and wanna-bes hunt for a hit, then run it into the fucking ground.
We're going live with this weeks episode of Frame Trap where we'll be discussing the article later on in the show 
http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner
http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Chris Hu + Aquasilk + Drunk Art + a sprinkle of Jaha now and then.
Haunted
Member
I don't watch a ton of fighting game streams, but this is something I have noticed before. I do watch a lot of SC2 and used to watch Quake, so seeing the energetic/hollering fighting game casters compared to the more measured and analytical casters I'm used to is a refreshing change of pace... for a while. But I can't stand more than a couple minutes at a time.
I can listen to Tastosis or 2GD or MrBitterdam for hours on end.
I can listen to Tastosis or 2GD or MrBitterdam for hours on end.
Magus1234 is the best fighting game commentator, hands down. When he and S-Kill were commentating together at NCR earlier this year it was the pinnacle of SF commentary. Tons of great insight, funny quips, and they are both naturals on the mic and easy to listen to. It's a real fucking shame there are no Keystone II streams any more, and that Magus is so rarely on the mic in general. I think if Magus and Art got on the mic together my ears would bust a nut. <3 Magus and Art. Yes homo. Oh yeah, Ryan Hunter is also awesome.
As far as this article/discussion, I really think fighting game commentary is very, very low on the list of reasons fighting game streams don't pull in the numbers of games like Starcraft and LoL. If everyone's first introduction to fighting game streams was drunken Magus and Darry during Keystone II, that might make more sense. But you don't find that kind of vulgarity at all during any majors or even smaller tourneys. You get competent and knowledgeable people who almost uniformly keep the commentary PG-13 rated.
I think what Jared needs to realize is that fighting games are like the NHL of "eSports". Hockey is a great sport, it is cherished by its fans and it is legitimate in every respect, yet it doesn't pull in a fraction of the viewers that the MLB, NBA, or NFL does. The NHL has tried multiple times to make their broadcasts more "exciting" to entice viewers (like when they added a special "trail" effect to the puck to make it more easy to follow), and nothing has worked. The viewership keeps sliding to the point where Magic: The Gathering on ESPN72 outdraws the Stanley Cup. So what should they do? Pack it in? Of course not. The league will continue and the games will still be broadcast.
It all boils down to preference and taste, and there is no accounting for these. For whatever reason, fighting games are just not as attractive to as many people as Starcraft is. I'd like to be wrong, but I just don't see this changing anytime soon. And as much as I'd like to see Evo be on ESPN2 someday, I'm ok if it never happens. And If fighting games ever do get that big, it won't be because of the commentary.
I think looking at commentary as the reason for people to be interested in fighting games or to tune into them is backwards. People are interested in the games first and foremost. They are tuning in to see matches. Viewers either enjoy the commentary, tolerate it, or dislike it enough to mute it. But commentary is not what is keeping FG streams numbers where they are. It is just that we are a niche community. We are the NHL. And while it'd be nice to be the NFL, I don't think our lesser numbers are a negative or something to be ashamed about.
If for some reason hundreds of thousands of people got more interested in fighting games and watched consistently, then we'd see a lot more money flow into the scene, and we could probably expect to see a bump in the level of commentary. But how much of a bump? I'm having a hard time picturing commentary being more professional and insightful than Ultradavid/Chen/Ryan Hunter/S-Kill at Evo this year. I really don't see what they could do differently that would pull in more viewers, and I think those kinds of efforts usually come across poorly and alienate or frustrate the core that was there from the beginning (like the glowing puck did for NHL fans).
I'm sure Jared's intentions are good, but I think he is missing the mark with his commentary spiel.
tl;dr - Commentary is fine for the most part, fighting games are a niche and probably will never pull in the numbers that Starcraft does, let's be OK with this while of course trying to improve and be professional.
As far as this article/discussion, I really think fighting game commentary is very, very low on the list of reasons fighting game streams don't pull in the numbers of games like Starcraft and LoL. If everyone's first introduction to fighting game streams was drunken Magus and Darry during Keystone II, that might make more sense. But you don't find that kind of vulgarity at all during any majors or even smaller tourneys. You get competent and knowledgeable people who almost uniformly keep the commentary PG-13 rated.
I think what Jared needs to realize is that fighting games are like the NHL of "eSports". Hockey is a great sport, it is cherished by its fans and it is legitimate in every respect, yet it doesn't pull in a fraction of the viewers that the MLB, NBA, or NFL does. The NHL has tried multiple times to make their broadcasts more "exciting" to entice viewers (like when they added a special "trail" effect to the puck to make it more easy to follow), and nothing has worked. The viewership keeps sliding to the point where Magic: The Gathering on ESPN72 outdraws the Stanley Cup. So what should they do? Pack it in? Of course not. The league will continue and the games will still be broadcast.
It all boils down to preference and taste, and there is no accounting for these. For whatever reason, fighting games are just not as attractive to as many people as Starcraft is. I'd like to be wrong, but I just don't see this changing anytime soon. And as much as I'd like to see Evo be on ESPN2 someday, I'm ok if it never happens. And If fighting games ever do get that big, it won't be because of the commentary.
I think looking at commentary as the reason for people to be interested in fighting games or to tune into them is backwards. People are interested in the games first and foremost. They are tuning in to see matches. Viewers either enjoy the commentary, tolerate it, or dislike it enough to mute it. But commentary is not what is keeping FG streams numbers where they are. It is just that we are a niche community. We are the NHL. And while it'd be nice to be the NFL, I don't think our lesser numbers are a negative or something to be ashamed about.
If for some reason hundreds of thousands of people got more interested in fighting games and watched consistently, then we'd see a lot more money flow into the scene, and we could probably expect to see a bump in the level of commentary. But how much of a bump? I'm having a hard time picturing commentary being more professional and insightful than Ultradavid/Chen/Ryan Hunter/S-Kill at Evo this year. I really don't see what they could do differently that would pull in more viewers, and I think those kinds of efforts usually come across poorly and alienate or frustrate the core that was there from the beginning (like the glowing puck did for NHL fans).
I'm sure Jared's intentions are good, but I think he is missing the mark with his commentary spiel.
tl;dr - Commentary is fine for the most part, fighting games are a niche and probably will never pull in the numbers that Starcraft does, let's be OK with this while of course trying to improve and be professional.
cj_iwakura
Member
Whoever did the Catherine commentary at NorCal Install.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Gravijah said:
I dunno. The SC IV Devastation commentary was pretty good. Explained what's going on, gave the matches some context and drama...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFNtxqj4GdM&feature=player_embedded
Seth would be a lot better if he did a couple things differently:
1. Stop relying so much on stock phrases, especially those related to psychobabble. "Daigo is looking deep within himself!" How often does Seth say that someone is reaching deep down, need to pull out something extra, needs to gather himself, looks shaken, etc etc? It's like the guy has a second calling as a psychiatrist.
2. Sometimes his play by play is a little too literal, describing exactly what is happening, which we can all see with our own eyes, rather than on a slightly higher level. He has definitely gotten better at this though.
Seth is good but these two things would make him a lot better.
In general I like most fighting game commentary outside of the people who are just all "OH HYPE MAHVEL PRINGLES SALT" meme machines.
1. Stop relying so much on stock phrases, especially those related to psychobabble. "Daigo is looking deep within himself!" How often does Seth say that someone is reaching deep down, need to pull out something extra, needs to gather himself, looks shaken, etc etc? It's like the guy has a second calling as a psychiatrist.
2. Sometimes his play by play is a little too literal, describing exactly what is happening, which we can all see with our own eyes, rather than on a slightly higher level. He has definitely gotten better at this though.
Seth is good but these two things would make him a lot better.
In general I like most fighting game commentary outside of the people who are just all "OH HYPE MAHVEL PRINGLES SALT" meme machines.
Stabby McSter
Member
Why not? I feel like fighting games are easier to get into than Starcraft. The reason SC is popular is that it stayed relevant for over a decade. Fighting games lost popularity. :<Satyamdas said:
I think fighting games could bring in SC numbers. It'll just take time. EVO numbers were pretty insane.
Karsticles
Member
I think the most important distinction between good commentary and bad commentary is this: a good commentator annotates the fight, and a bad commentator acts as though he's just a guy in the crowd with a mic on.
You are talking about a tenfold increase in order to reach Starcraft numbers. I just don't see that happening, though I'd love to see it.Stabby McSter said:
Yeah, fighting games are easier to get into as far as just mashing buttons when you play at the beginning, but at high level play they are just as demanding as Starcraft. I think Korea probably skews the numbers quite a bit seeing as how it is almost a religion there, and that's why I think focusing on raw numbers is a fool's game.