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Is Aloy a Mary Sue?
- Thread starter hyperbertha
- Start date
Nigel
Member
He isn’t considering the entire narrative of U4 is driven by his own flaws.
hyperbertha
Member
A character in a game that takes its story seriously should be held to different standards than characters in games like Doom or Sekiro don't you think?
Its true Horizon can be an easy game, but their are plenty of instances in the game where agency is taken from the player and given to the character itself, making her a different entity than the player, unlike Sekiro. The choices aloy makes in the game are not the player's choices.
Not to mention countless games like red dead redemption and final fantasy 6 that manage lots of gameplay with well written characters with great arcs and believable development that make the player confront whatever question the narrative poses. So it has been done before. Horizon couldn't accomplish what similar games did accomplish is my opinion.
hyperbertha
Member
Mary sue doesn't mean one who doesn't fail at all. But one who isn't meaningfully challenged based on her character and abilities. Aloy's higher intelligence and her higher physical abilities and her 'focus' equipment result in so many of her successes, and these are handed to her for free. you can't say she trained all her life when everybody else did the same thing.
In well written stories, you don't see heroes getting free shit unless it sends the right message in the story. If they do receive free shit, it doesn't drive the story forward meaningfully nor solve problems for characters and they are constantly challenged for their worthiness of the free stuff.
The Cockatrice
Member
Nice to see gaf so active.
BaneIsPain
Member
I think I would like to win game not cannon fodder.
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LegendOfKage
Member
In her trial at the beginning, someone cheats and forces her to take a great risk that no one else is willing to take. Her getting a focus (and other technology) requires her to fight against authority and the values of her society in order to be her own person and make her own decisions in life. I would disagree that her actions don't suggest that she earned these things.
Thank god this didn't take someone long to say it. When I was running around shanking cannibals in TLOU1, I wasn't sitting there thinking "My god Ellie is such a Mary Sue and overpowered."
. . .what a silly thread.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No way you believe the term Mary Sue was meant to be used equally for men and women. Like....come on man.
It's the dumbest thread of GAF this week.
hyperbertha
Member
She surmounted a path that nobody before has managed to complete because..... she is just better.
She got the focus for free by coincidence from what I remember. That by itself is okay, but it becomes so crucial in the story and central to her advancing the social ranks, including being the only reason she gets Sylens'es help afaik.
And the moment she is anointed a seeker its like her past didn't exist. Everything is forgiven, and she has no issues despite how she was treated her whole life. No human will grow past that the way Aloy does. A great opportunity to explore forgiveness wasted.
The whole story is simply Aloy going through motions and winning stuff, owing to being the chosen one, among other things, without having to learn anything. She didn't learn anything thanks to Rost's death. Its never seen as her fault that he died. He just dies because Helis killed him. It doesn't even affect her or is truly brought up after he dies.
I certainly felt that way playing the game, and OP set out the main reasons why. In particular it's her endless well of empathy that sets me off. If you played a drinking game where you take a shot every time Aloy solemnly apologizes for someone else's misfortune you'd die of alcohol poisoning by the halfway mark. Just give her like... one flaw, you know? Her character never believably reflects the fact that she grew up as an outcast, her social skills are beyond everyone else's.
But she's nowhere near as much of a Mary Sue as her saviour progenitor. However, I think the story justifies that and didn't have a problem with it.
But she's nowhere near as much of a Mary Sue as her saviour progenitor. However, I think the story justifies that and didn't have a problem with it.
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llien
Member
How is it "one frame" when there are 3 different shots in OP? Shouldn't it be "3 frames"?
Asking for a friend (married incel).
Werewolf Jones
Gold Member
In some regard but others not so much. She often gets questioned and has to prove herself for people to trust her, a real Mary Sue would have people blindly follow and simp over her.
Amiga
Member
overdoing vulnerability could be bad, especially in a game. because we control the characters and want a sense of power. game writers need to balance the player power fantasy with the main character development. it's not an easy thing to do. overdoing it one way or the other can ruin the story. it's not an exact science, but writers just need to get the most people on target as possible. misses are inevitable.
HZD is a pulp action game. they could overwrite it and ruin the fun. Noctis in FFXV was so overvulnerable it annoyed me. Farcry games are the opposite, an average person drops in a warzone and takes on an army of guerrillas.
you mentioned RDR2. that game got it as perfectly as can be. Arthur Morgan is the best written character in gaming IMOO. do I want all games to achieve this level? yes. but only a handful of games are as good in character as this.
llien
Member
Seriously, this is amazing design.
Why can't we have transgender or gender fluid Aloy in the second bit?
Are devs not brave enough?
nightmare-slain
Member
what a stupid question. it's a video game. every single character in video game history is a "mary sue".
RedWhiteBlue
Banned
I don't know how exactly the term originated or why it is still used. I don't care. Its a common phrase used to describe something in pop culture.
hyperbertha
makes some good points on the discussion and maybe it is a valid argument that Aloy is a Mary Sue. They are at least making some points and defending their position.Fucksakes, we are talking about videogames here. Not solving world hunger or bringing about world peace.
Some of you are far too uptight and just can't help yourselves as soon as you read something you don't like. "Incels". "Dumbest thread".
Maybe take off Anita's tinfoil headwear and remove the stick from your arse.
RedWhiteBlue
Banned
All excellent points, well made.
Too bad some contributers have nothing more to offer than name calling and a dismissive attitude.
llien
Member
tassletine
Member
That's not what a Mary Sue is, that's why your argument doesn't work for games.
Mary Sue is more about how the other characters react to that character.
Traditionally it's being used more as a mocking term for lazy writing, but strangely now there are people who find that sort of character appealing.
The guy in Sekiro is not a Mary Sue because he sounds weary, and depressed and his tale is tragic. He's also not presented as likeable.
Hitman is more of a joke than anything, but is not presented as likeable either and is just a gun for hire.
The problem is really that the developers made Eloy deliberately ugly and portrayed her as being a "realistic character" without having the skill to pull that off.
The writing in the game is verbose, unmemorable and has no real character in it's self. I can't think of a single time I felt Eloy connect with any other characters (if I could remember any) so by extension I don't like her, as no one really else seems to.
llien
Member
The term came out of a short, satirical piece of Star Trek fanfiction that Paula Smith published in Menagerie, a Star Trek fanzine, in 1973. In "A Trekkie's Tale," Lt. Mary Sue grabs the attention of...
In case it was not sarcasm.
RedWhiteBlue
Banned
Paula Smith, the first ever Incel?
TheGodfather07
Member
Why is gaf obsessed with aloy?, first, her physical appearance and now her personality and character. Ya'll know she ain't real right? Also we got more pages on a thread like this than a fucking gameplay reveal of far cry 6 and a new video on dying light 2! Why?
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Bladed Thesis
Member
I love the "people are taking one frame out of context!!!! I guess only trolling Sony is allowed around here!!!!111!!!" contributers who partook in Craig memes.
Ahh, NeoGaf. Never change.
Ahh, NeoGaf. Never change.
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MiguelItUp
Member
Damn, some of GAF really got messed up with Aloy, lmao.
I don't understand the concept of asking if she's a Mary Sue. I'd feel like if she truly was, that topic would've come up quite awhile ago. Much like it did with Rey and the latest Star Wars trilogy.
I never played Horizons, so there isn't much I can say on the topic. But I will say it's kind of amusing to me to label a main protagonist in a video game a sue of any form considering the context.
Movies, shows, and books are one thing. But with video games being a much more interactive form of entertainment, I just don't see how it works. Sure there's still some character development, story, and cutscenes. But when you control the character and go through the motions, does none of that count there? I dunno. Honestly the whole "Sue" thing never really appealed to me. Good and bad character development exists, so I just judge it and them accordingly.
I saw someone saying if she was/is, then Doom Slayer is a Henry Sue, lmao. I guess that's kinda true? Lol.
I don't understand the concept of asking if she's a Mary Sue. I'd feel like if she truly was, that topic would've come up quite awhile ago. Much like it did with Rey and the latest Star Wars trilogy.
I never played Horizons, so there isn't much I can say on the topic. But I will say it's kind of amusing to me to label a main protagonist in a video game a sue of any form considering the context.
Movies, shows, and books are one thing. But with video games being a much more interactive form of entertainment, I just don't see how it works. Sure there's still some character development, story, and cutscenes. But when you control the character and go through the motions, does none of that count there? I dunno. Honestly the whole "Sue" thing never really appealed to me. Good and bad character development exists, so I just judge it and them accordingly.
I saw someone saying if she was/is, then Doom Slayer is a Henry Sue, lmao. I guess that's kinda true? Lol.
It’s a vehicle for power-fantasy action for the player. I don’t want to kick ass in the action gameplay only to shift to a cutscene where the protagonist fails and cries while eating a pint of Ben and Jerry’s alone in her post-apocalyptic hut. Thankfully Aloy eats her Chunky Monkey off-screen.
Julius Ibidus
Member
sloppyjoe_gamer
Gold Member
llien
Member
Bear*Walken*the*Sweeper
Member
@
hyperbertha
(Checking and whining? From what I saw she gets as many potshots at him as he on her. The point is her character 'flaw' doesn't have a role in the story.)
Yeah, she took shots at him too, but she still knew she still had to listen to him though.
(2. I don't understand your phrasing.)
Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Your statement was " But aren't everybody else training like her from a young age too?' Well not exactly. Teb clearly didn't because he became a stitcher, Karst sold stuff. The Proving was for those who wanted to be braves. I'm sure a lot if not most of the tribe took part, but not all of them.
With better support
(3. While i definitely get the high road message and think its one of the messages in the story, it comes too easily to her. She doesn't struggle with it at all, whereas in a well written story
taking the high road should be the main point of exploration in a story like this. It was a tremendous oppourtunity for character development and they just brushed it to the sidelines in this game and she deals with the challenge perfectly with no effort.)
I think you might be forgetting Rost's final lesson where he says " I didn't say the tribe wouldn't need you" Aloy's "My tribe" already shows the struggle with it for her. However, her respect for Rost and his wishes, allows her to do so and learn that. This comes up again with Erend where he says well you can use your "second sight" to get what you are after, why can't you help me? So it didn't always come easy, but in end, I believe Aloy knew helping others was her duty.
(4. I can't say I would interpret that as hitting on him. She demonstrates no other instances of liking him more than other characters.)
Fair enough but like I said she didn't offer to make such an offer to anyone else. The game made sure to note that.
(5. Are you implying no game stories had good writing ever? That is wrong on so many levels. Look at red dead redemption 2. Look at half dozen final fantasy games. Look at RPGs like baldur's gate and planescape. Its possible to be a badass character that has to deal with extreme threats and still have to go through character development and be like a normal person.)
Hold on now, I'm not saying the writing in games are bad, some of it is, but there has to be reasonable expectations in the game's narrative, to allow for its, for lack of a better term, Gameyness. Your implying Aloy is a Mary Sue because she can do things perfectly. Well isn't what you want out of your character in the game. You're not playing it to mess up, even when we inevitably do.
hyperbertha
(Checking and whining? From what I saw she gets as many potshots at him as he on her. The point is her character 'flaw' doesn't have a role in the story.)
Yeah, she took shots at him too, but she still knew she still had to listen to him though.
(2. I don't understand your phrasing.)
Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Your statement was " But aren't everybody else training like her from a young age too?' Well not exactly. Teb clearly didn't because he became a stitcher, Karst sold stuff. The Proving was for those who wanted to be braves. I'm sure a lot if not most of the tribe took part, but not all of them.
With better support
(3. While i definitely get the high road message and think its one of the messages in the story, it comes too easily to her. She doesn't struggle with it at all, whereas in a well written story
taking the high road should be the main point of exploration in a story like this. It was a tremendous oppourtunity for character development and they just brushed it to the sidelines in this game and she deals with the challenge perfectly with no effort.)
I think you might be forgetting Rost's final lesson where he says " I didn't say the tribe wouldn't need you" Aloy's "My tribe" already shows the struggle with it for her. However, her respect for Rost and his wishes, allows her to do so and learn that. This comes up again with Erend where he says well you can use your "second sight" to get what you are after, why can't you help me? So it didn't always come easy, but in end, I believe Aloy knew helping others was her duty.
(4. I can't say I would interpret that as hitting on him. She demonstrates no other instances of liking him more than other characters.)
Fair enough but like I said she didn't offer to make such an offer to anyone else. The game made sure to note that.
(5. Are you implying no game stories had good writing ever? That is wrong on so many levels. Look at red dead redemption 2. Look at half dozen final fantasy games. Look at RPGs like baldur's gate and planescape. Its possible to be a badass character that has to deal with extreme threats and still have to go through character development and be like a normal person.)
Hold on now, I'm not saying the writing in games are bad, some of it is, but there has to be reasonable expectations in the game's narrative, to allow for its, for lack of a better term, Gameyness. Your implying Aloy is a Mary Sue because she can do things perfectly. Well isn't what you want out of your character in the game. You're not playing it to mess up, even when we inevitably do.
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GymWolf
Member
She is so so, in the end sylens is the real winner and he play aloy like a fiddle.
Her being more capable than any other male hunter is a bit on the nose, but she has a fucking thing that tells her all the weak points of the dinobot, plus she can make any dinobot friendly with his spear...good luck having more fighting prowess than a chick with a thunderjaw as a pet.
Her being snarky against all the religious tribes was hilarious, she is basically me everytime i heard about religious fairytales, perfectly understandable since she was a women of science since childhood after discovering the focus thingy (also genetic predisposition).
Her being more capable than any other male hunter is a bit on the nose, but she has a fucking thing that tells her all the weak points of the dinobot, plus she can make any dinobot friendly with his spear...good luck having more fighting prowess than a chick with a thunderjaw as a pet.
Her being snarky against all the religious tribes was hilarious, she is basically me everytime i heard about religious fairytales, perfectly understandable since she was a women of science since childhood after discovering the focus thingy (also genetic predisposition).
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Zeroing
Banned
Humans are complex, unlike what most movies, video games and Pixar movies portrait.
Unlike 99% of the games this one actually makes sense for Aloy to behave like that!
I didn’t see anyone complaining about Lara Croft who went through a lot, hated tombs but no traumas in the sequel. And she goes in to ancient civilizations helping everyone like she the savior!
we are cherry picking and far reaching.
Zeroing
Banned
If you played the game you would know she had that ancient technology that helped her a lot! On the sequel she is not the only one with it…
sometimes I wonder if I played a different game? Why are we complaining about a “non believing female character” where the male characters on video games are even worsen to believe such person would exist?
//DEVIL//
Member
please shut up
Ikutachi
Member
GymWolf
Member
Dude we are literally saying the same thing...(i think)
I have like 170 hours on the first one and it was my gotg, so yeah, i know a thing or two about the game, and sure as hell i'm not shitting on aloy even if she can sound bitchy and snarky for people who didn't followed her shitty childhood where she was an outcast and hated by everyone except rost.
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Prison Mike
Banned
GymWolf
Member
I had a good laugh at this part:
but whenever she is angry she turns out to be right, proving to be wiser than even experienced rulers far older than her.
Dude have you even played the game?! The old ruler are a bunch of ignorant religious pricks with zero knowledge of the old world or what is happening with hades etc., Of course she is always right, she is literally the only one who know shit, and she has every reason for being mad, it's the equivalent of talking with flat earthers from her point of view, also they casted her away and he never received love except for the rude type you can receive from a guy like rost.
but whenever she is angry she turns out to be right, proving to be wiser than even experienced rulers far older than her.
Dude have you even played the game?! The old ruler are a bunch of ignorant religious pricks with zero knowledge of the old world or what is happening with hades etc., Of course she is always right, she is literally the only one who know shit, and she has every reason for being mad, it's the equivalent of talking with flat earthers from her point of view, also they casted her away and he never received love except for the rude type you can receive from a guy like rost.
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
And thats my problem with this game, they way they try make Aloy smart and capable is to make every character around here dumb as fuck.
Nickolaidas
Member
You can return to his house at (ir)regular intervals. Alloy will kneel before his grave and speak to him about what she has accomplished so far and how her journey is going. It's a nice touch that shows that he was the closest thing to a parent that Alloy ever had. And that she misses him.
People are not understanding 100% what a Mary Sue is, methinks. A Mary Sue isn't immune to failure, but more like, she's a character whose personality is almost devoid of flaws and a character who seems to attract anyone she meets.
However, it's not that Alloy is a Mary Sue as much as almost all female characters are presented as more capable, more rational, more just and more worthy in general than the male characters. It's like the game is purposefully trying to invert the archaic trope of men outperforming women and turns it into women outperforming men ... which is just as bad, in my opinion.
Most male characters covet the positions and abilities of other females characters, are in no way worthy of their station compared to their female counterparts and generally act as if they live in 10.000 BC while the women appear to be living in 2.000 AD. The theme of Girl Power is strong in this game, to the point it looks like propaganda.
Early in the game Alloy meets a wounded man who wanted to find his missing daughter, because she's searching for her dead mother's spear. The wounded man wastes no time to inform Alloy that his dead wife was a better hunter and craftsman than he was (openly confessing his inferiority) and begs for Alloy's assistance.
The leader of the Hunter's Guild is a sneaky little bastard who tries to prevent women from rivalling him and challenging him for his position (greedily clinging to his male power, unwilling to let the better woman take over). When Alloy and a female hunter (who believes is worthier of the title) find the male hunter leader, he attempts to kill a thunderjaw, only to die in five seconds. Alloy and her teammate Talanah succeed where he has failed. When they return, Talanah announced that she's the leader now and that more 'progressive' ways of ranking the hunters of the lodge will now succeed the old, bigoted ways. If this isn't a metaphor, I don't know what is.
In the Frozen Wilds DLC, there are two siblings who argue over what has to be done. A brother and a sister. Guess who is wrong, guess who is right, guess who regrets his behavior after a few game hours.
There is a clear attempt at Horizon of showing you that men are unworthy of their power and their station, women are better at combat, strategy, reasoning, hunting, virtually everything - they're simply portrayed as the superior sex.
If anything, Horizon is one of the few pop culture experiences I recently had which made me realize how utterly infuriating it must have been for women all those years to witness movies and read literature where female characters were always surpassed by the male ones and would often only be used as sexual rewards for the male protagonists, prizes, damsels in distress or even comic relief.
But inverting the propaganda from one side to the other is not the solution. True equality is needed.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I don't know how exactly the term originated or why it is still used. I don't care. Its a common phrase used to describe something in pop culture.
Fucksakes, we are talking about videogames here. Not solving world hunger or bringing about world peace.
Some of you are far too uptight and just can't help yourselves as soon as you read something you don't like. "Incels". "Dumbest thread".
Maybe take off Anita's tinfoil headwear and remove the stick from your arse.
Because it is a dumb ass thread, that's why. There's nothing different from Aloy in HZD, than most other characters in video games. You could say the same thing for Nathan Drake, Agent 47, Dante, etc. Why Aloy? And why now?
And yet the term is used 99% of the time for female characters in games, movies, and TV shows. I wonder why....
HellforLeather
Member
I mean she kinda is, but shes not a real person. Its the writers who are afraid of giving female characters flaws that are cast in a light that actually depict them as detractors from their character.
Characters are only as interesting as their struggles to overcome. When you create uber powerful characters with minimal flaws that don't fail, their victories become hollow and inevitable.
Characters are only as interesting as their struggles to overcome. When you create uber powerful characters with minimal flaws that don't fail, their victories become hollow and inevitable.
Goalus
Member
While Gears 5 definitely has some issues in this regard (not just Kait), overall it turned out great given what it could have become (The Last Jedi). The way how Fahz is written clearly shows that they were trying to "do it right" and not just cater to the SJW crowd, and I think they mostly succeeded.
Julius Ibidus
Member
yeah, not even close. you can go decade by decade, from the silent film era on, to examine world cinema and '99%' of female leads are most definitely not characterized as 'Mary Sues' of its equivalent. too many examples in great films to list, so i won't, suffice to say the generalization doesn't come close to holding water.
sloppyjoe_gamer
Gold Member
For everyone saying she seems like shes been eating alot of Big Macs since the first game, here's a thought.....
Maybe she's pregnant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe she's pregnant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God i hope not
GymWolf
Member
It was inevitable, it's not her fault if the others are much more ignorant about everything, they don't have the same technology as her (and she acquired that almost by mistake)
It was made to create a contrast between people with a focus and knowledge like her and sylens and the rest of the world, the protagoniost must have some special talent\uniqness after all.
A lot of plot points circle arounds the focus network of the shadow carja etc. if everyone had a focus the plot wouldn't work.
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