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[Darkmakaimura]

This applies to both tabletop and role-playing games but has anyone else a little burnt out on the typical trope of having the usual elves and dwarves and orcs?

First off I'm kind of tired of orcs. I never initially cared for that race to begin with.

I just wish that Western fantasy would move on a little bit from Tolkie-esque fantasy races. Even the more highbrow and mature TTTPGs still you the same races over and over again.

I would just like to see more Western Fantasy games includes something different as far as non-human races.

 

[Fart Knight]

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Skooma, motherfucker.

 

[FunkMiller]

WOS 'E SAYIN' BOYZ?

E'Z SAYIN' EZ BORED WIV US GRAH!

LETZ GET 'IM LADZ!

WAAAAAAAAAGGHHHHHH!

...oh, sorry. You meant with a C.

Yeah. They're shit.

 

[CGNoire]

NO!

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

That's how I currently feel about regular fantasy when it comes to books

I've been reading this author named China Mieville Bas Lag Cycle. His Bas Lag Cycle is Weird Fantasy and I love it

 

[Ownage]

Time for fisticuffs. Come get some.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Nope. Elves, dwarves and orcs are all awesome. Though I think people have forgotten what made orcs dope. They're supposed to be manifestations of the worst attributes of humanity: Brutishness, ignorance, the lack of culture. Trying to give them a tribal structure defeats the point. Orcs should not have a society or culture beyond "Might makes right".

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Nope. Elves, dwarves and orcs are all awesome. Though I think people have forgotten what made orcs dope. They're supposed to be manifestations of the worst attributes of humanity: Brutishness, ignorance, the lack of culture. Trying to give them a tribal structure defeats the point. Orcs should not have a society or culture beyond "Might makes right".

The only ones like that are from Warhammer 40,000 nowadays. You can think of certain loud minority of Twitter people for a lot of why orcs are the way they are now. Although there have been depictions in the past of orcs being more civilized.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

The only ones like that are from Warhammer 40,000 nowadays. You can think of certain loud minority of Twitter people for a lot of why orcs are the way they are now. Although there have been depictions in the past of orcs being more civilized.

I blame Blizzard, in all honesty. It was interesting how they handled them in WC3, but now you have people being weird about them because of that portrayal. And now DND isn't helping

 

[German Hops]

First off I'm kind of tired of orcs. I never initially cared for that race to begin with.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

This thread inspired me to make a YouTube channel called Orcs Are Evil. I was thinking of doing some Fantasy themed video essays and such.

Created the channel and it was immediately banned by YouTube before I even did anything with it. Apparebtly the name was a ToS violation. But fortunately I was able to appeal it and it was overturned.

 

[hybrid_birth]

 

[GeekyDad]

yes

 

[thief183]

No I'm not.

 

[NahaNago]

Yes, but I mostly just want new mainstream enemies and to expand the fantasy medieval world to outside of Europe.

 

[AJUMP23]

No, What is wrong with them?

 

[jason10mm]

Yes, but I mostly just want new mainstream enemies and to expand the fantasy medieval world to outside of Europe.

Thats a bit of an oxymoron, the "medieval world" IS europe 500-1500 AD. Other societies were in very different stages of development at that time without that feudal structure that a lot of "fantasy" exploits. Just like elves and dwarves (and to some extent 'goblins and orcs') are a critical mythological component of european culture (if you were to mash together all these somewhat disparate cultures).

I think what we consider the fantasy genre is uniquely european/british as well, I don't think there are scores of fantasy epics in a similar vein sitting untranslated in latin america, africa, or south east asia. Cultures from those areas have a different relationship with their past and a different vibe to the stories they tell. So we are kinda dependent on english authors going afield to write stuff set in a fantasy version of India or china versus just getting translations of whats already there. China probably has a bunch of them though, and Japan certainly does "their" fantasy epics in various mediums.

I think a lot of authors use medieval europe as a base because it is an easy shorthand for the reader. We all know basically what a king and queen are, or a duke, or knight. You don't need a lot of fancy vocabulary or exposition for this stuff, or to describe a castle in a lot of detail. Plus you have a lot of real world historical parallels to draw from, documented clashes between cultures, and institutions that give a feel of authenticity. But if an author were to create all of this from scratch (Brandon Sanderson, for example) then you end up with a TON of exposition, internal inconsistencies, or "Coat of paint" substitutions that are unconvincing.

 

[Laptop1991]

It wouldn't be Fantasy to me without them, gotta say no.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

It wouldn't be Fantasy to me without them, gotta say no.

Japanese fantasy RPGs and the last few decades have done without the typical fantasy tropes of elves and dwarfs and orcs. They just include different races and enemies.

A good example of a western fantasy game that doesn't have any of that is Diablo. Of course that's a darker take on the fantasy genre but still....

 

[Alebrije]

Nope. Elves, dwarves and orcs are all awesome. Though I think people have forgotten what made orcs dope. They're supposed to be manifestations of the worst attributes of humanity: Brutishness, ignorance, the lack of culture. Trying to give them a tribal structure defeats the point. Orcs should not have a society or culture beyond "Might makes right".

This describes some people of some countries..

 

[jason10mm]

This describes some people of some countries..

 

[jason10mm]

If you look at ALL fantasy in the western world, it's really just a very specific subset that is this way, it's just that it exploded when dnd came around and really locked in those Tolkein characteristics. But wheel of time, game of thrones, the belgariad, first law, riftwar, arguably Malazan (there are elf like races there) all these tentpole series dont really have a lot of elements from tolkein. Dwarves and elves or whatnot are not really the norm.

 

[Wildebeest]

There is a tiresome "playing it safe" in the genre due to the commercial reality of the most bland tripe possible selling like hotcakes and people whining like babies if there is anything different. But it is even worse than that as there is a gradual "elf-ification" of all fantasy races as Tolkien Elves have a sort of gravitational pull of "fantasy races" and all races eventually just become elves. Humans are shit mortal elves, like seriously why even bother with this shit race. Dwarves are stocky, bearded, grumpy elves. Orcs are green tint elves who have dehydration muscles and who are a bit tribal but good people you know, you aren't racist against orcs are you because orcs are like African American elves (as people erroneously decided in all their dribbling idiocy). As for skeletons, bone elves, basically good people or something. Unspeakable shapeless horrors from the abyss who murder and torture innocents? Basically just goth elves, and we don't kink shame, good people.

 

[bender]

We need more robots.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Tolkien Elves have a sort of gravitational pull of "fantasy races" and all races eventually just become elves. Humans are shit mortal elves, like seriously why even bother with this shit race.

This is pretty spot on. That's one of my issues is that there's hardly any differences between humans and elves and a lot of modern fantasy. When I play a lot of Fantasy games I really just can't tell the difference and ask myself why even have these two different races? There might be some slight differences but it ends there. Elves are basically just humans who live in the forest and live longer and that's about it for many fantasy settings.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

If you look at ALL fantasy in the western world, it's really just a very specific subset that is this way, it's just that it exploded when dnd came around and really locked in those Tolkein characteristics. But wheel of time, game of thrones, the belgariad, first law, riftwar, arguably Malazan (there are elf like races there) all these tentpole series dont really have a lot of elements from tolkein. Dwarves and elves or whatnot are not really the norm.

I admit I don't know much about Riftwar but from what I've seen of the two Krondor games, they have elves and dwarves and they seem like the typical fantasy trope types. I do always wonder why there hasn't been more video games based off of those novels though.

 

[Laptop1991]

Japanese fantasy RPGs and the last few decades have done without the typical fantasy tropes of elves and dwarfs and orcs. They just include different races and enemies.

A good example of a western fantasy game that doesn't have any of that is Diablo. Of course that's a darker take on the fantasy genre but still....

I dont read Japanese fantasy only western so im pre programmed and ive only played Diablo 1 decades ago, im not saying you can't have a fantasy book or game without them, but it's more fantasy to me if Elves and Dwarves are in it

 

[Krappadizzle]

When it's done bog standard, yeah sure.

But there's so many interesting variations on the concept; 40k, The Witcher, Shadowrun, Forgotten Realms, etc. that I love it when it's done well and in service to a well written story.

 

[jason10mm]

I admit I don't know much about Riftwar but from what I've seen of the two Krondor games, they have elves and dwarves and they seem like the typical fantasy trope types. I do always wonder why there hasn't been more video games based off of those novels though.

Eh, you may be right, my.memory could be failing me.

 

[Myths]

No

 

[Ikutachi]

Keep the elves, don't care for the rest.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

This is pretty spot on. That's one of my issues is that there's hardly any differences between humans and elves and a lot of modern fantasy. When I play a lot of Fantasy games I really just can't tell the difference and ask myself why even have these two different races? There might be some slight differences but it ends there. Elves are basically just humans who live in the forest and live longer and that's about it for many fantasy settings.

Sapkowski did a really good portrayal of Elves that differed much from High Fantasy we got with Tolkien; In the Witcher world Elves are a remnants of what was many years ago, they are clinging to their memories of past glories and remain for the most part quite arrogant and look down on humans, even though said humans drove them out of their kingdoms. Then there are Scoia'tel that openly fight and murder humans, and Geralt is very clear in his opinion that it's a pointless struggle that just wastes lives.

 

[AJUMP23]

What type of races do you want?

You could write your own thing and develop lore and backstory for other races.

 

[diffusionx]

They are archetypes, which means that even if you didn't use "elves", you would still have "elves", in that whatever you put in there would represent some sort of high-born, graceful culture. And since you have "elves", you need the opposite, which is a sort of dark force, so you will have "orcs." These are archetypes that have existed for as long as people have been telling stories, they are not going away.

Sure there are people who try to subvert these elements but they are usually terrible writers ("the orcs are actually... LE GOOD!").

 

[22:22:22]

What type of races do you want?

You could write your own thing and develop lore and backstory for other races.

This.

Also, use your fucking imagination and don't make them all look similar like now. (Yes there are deviations)

 

[Days like these...]

I'm not real big into fantasy but I can tell you I'm tired of Aliens in scifi

 

[jason10mm]

Sapkowski did a really good portrayal of Elves that differed much from High Fantasy we got with Tolkien; In the Witcher world Elves are a remnants of what was many years ago, they are clinging to their memories of past glories and remain for the most part quite arrogant and look down on humans, even though said humans drove them out of their kingdoms. Then there are Scoia'tel that openly fight and murder humans, and Geralt is very clear in his opinion that it's a pointless struggle that just wastes lives.

My problem with elves in the witcher world (mostly the books, compounded by the show I guess) is they have almost no distinguishing characteristics from humans, in fact elves and humans can even be confused for each other (though I guess he's going for some interbreeding). Of course, the most basic definition of species is a collection that can breed and have fertile offspring so I'm not sure in most DnD fantasy worlds humans, elves, and often Orcs are even different species (you rarely hear of half-dwarves, half-halflings, etc) assuming the mix can have kids themselves. Contrast this to the mule/hinny or liger/tigon breeds with dramatically reduced fertility, if not outright sterility due to diffing chromosomes. In the Witcher, the aggregation of "elder blood" genes back into Ciri through influenced breeding (kind of the opposite of the Bene Gesserit program in Dune) shows humans and elves are totally sexually compatible and fertile, which would argue they are all the same species and "elves" don't really exist but are more of an offshoot of early modern humans or something (or we are offshoots of them though an earlier conjunction or dimensional travel).

His depiction of them is actually pretty close to Tolkien in the Silmarillion where elves were much more fractious with each other and other races, as well as being displaced by the newer species. However in Tolkein Elves are CLEARLY distinct from humans and any breeding betwixt elf and human is practically a sentinel supernatural event where the extremely rare offspring has to (somehow) make a conscious choice to be either elf (and immortal) or human (and die with a soul to ascend).

 

[DeafTourette]

IMO, they should take mythology from other continents like Asia and Africa and South America. There is SO MUCH MORE out there than old European myths. Not that I don't enjoy King Arthur and Tolkien.

 

[Tams]

No a single mention of gnomes in this thread, you fucks.

 

[Pejo]

They're pretty much the classics, OP. They're human enough to still be relatable but exotic enough to be interesting. I guess you can do other fantasy humanoid races by like giving them antlers or something but everybody already kinda has familiarity with the 3 you mentioned, so you don't have to make a bunch of worldbuilding/lore to get people up to speed on them. Inhuman races never seem to do well outside of a few fringe cases and the furry community.

 

[NahaNago]

Thats a bit of an oxymoron, the "medieval world" IS europe 500-1500 AD. Other societies were in very different stages of development at that time without that feudal structure that a lot of "fantasy" exploits. Just like elves and dwarves (and to some extent 'goblins and orcs') are a critical mythological component of european culture (if you were to mash together all these somewhat disparate cultures).

I think what we consider the fantasy genre is uniquely european/british as well, I don't think there are scores of fantasy epics in a similar vein sitting untranslated in latin america, africa, or south east asia. Cultures from those areas have a different relationship with their past and a different vibe to the stories they tell. So we are kinda dependent on english authors going afield to write stuff set in a fantasy version of India or china versus just getting translations of whats already there. China probably has a bunch of them though, and Japan certainly does "their" fantasy epics in various mediums.

I think a lot of authors use medieval europe as a base because it is an easy shorthand for the reader. We all know basically what a king and queen are, or a duke, or knight. You don't need a lot of fancy vocabulary or exposition for this stuff, or to describe a castle in a lot of detail. Plus you have a lot of real world historical parallels to draw from, documented clashes between cultures, and institutions that give a feel of authenticity. But if an author were to create all of this from scratch (Brandon Sanderson, for example) then you end up with a TON of exposition, internal inconsistencies, or "Coat of paint" substitutions that are unconvincing.

When I talk about expanding medieval beyond Europe , I'm simply talking about creating new new fantasy rpgs that use metal like weapons but with a different style and set in different lands. If set in Africa I would have long and short spears be the main weapons of use with maybe like their own version of the spear of excalibur. You can have a new variety of monsters and mythical legendary places. Instead of the pure iron armor of Europe I'd use hard fabrics or wood as armor in Africa and South America. Other areas outside of Europe would have faster mobility.

I'm aware that it would be complicated to create fantasy lands set in areas outside of Europe but I would still like more attempts at them even if they are unconvincing just so we can have more variety.

 

[dispensergoinup]

Hell no, that's the holy trinity of RPG fantasy races.

 

[Fbh]

Yes.
I like them in established franchises but every time we get a new fantasy novel/movie/game announced and it's just generic medieval fantasy with elves, dwarves and orcs I'm a bit disappointed.

Which is why it might not have the best story, or the best gameplay but 25 years later Chrono Cross is has one of the most striking fantasy worlds

 

[Liljagare]

I still am waiting for a decent Dragonlance game, where you can play as a dragon, or a Death Knight.

 

[Arsic]

Yes.
I like them in established franchises but every time we get a new fantasy novel/movie/game announced and it's just generic medieval fantasy with elves, dwarves and orcs I'm a bit disappointed.

Which is why it might not have the best story, or the best gameplay but 25 years later Chrono Cross is has one of the most striking fantasy worlds

World of ff12 has amazing races too.

 

[jason10mm]

IMO, they should take mythology from other continents like Asia and Africa and South America. There is SO MUCH MORE out there than old European myths. Not that I don't enjoy King Arthur and Tolkien.

I don't think some (most?) other cultures really have any interest in exploring their past and mythology in a fictional way like DnD. Plus they don't have a Tolkien like author that can totally reframe their mythology into a format that lends to spin off variations and "Adventure" stories that encapsulate the cultural values so well. If you really step back and look at what Tolkien did, it is a LANDMARK event in western literature. He grabbed from many aspects of European mythology, synthesized it with a heavy dose of Christianity, and hammered it all into a narrative that emphasized all sorts of western civilization values like rugged individualism, loyalty, "good vs evil", personal destiny, etc.

But other cultures don't always share those values or have the christian basis, so it's difficult to really create a fantasy story for them (as opposed to just transplanting Quetzalcoatl for Odin, Xolotl for Loki, etc) and doing a palette swap thats still really a european story with a Aztec coat of paint. Someone steeped in that culture has to collate it, keep the critical resonant parts, and then spin a story and create a world that reflects THOSE values and sets up a framework for other authors to riff off it, but in a way that feels authentically Aztec/Mexican instead of just Christian/European.

The Chinese have this with Middle Kingdom stuff, same with the Japanese. Translated versions of their stories can be quite different in feel than a typical western fantasy and not just because they wear different armor, wield a katana instead of a longsword, and fight monsters from a different book. The goals of the characters, the very NOTION of a group of disparate characters getting together for a road trip to stop a great evil....all that stuff is western mythology/Christian values using Beowulf, Canterbury Tales, Norse myth, Greek heroic journeys, etc that don't always have parallels in other cultures. There is often a sense of fantastic unreality, no need to make a logical flow of events, less concern for internal consistency, you see this in the anime and manga, how some cultures place less value on narrative drive and more on "in the moment" events or other qualities. Norse mythology was like this as well, they are all over the place in what charactgers could do, WTF Loki even was or what he stood for, etc but Tolkien put this much more rigid pantheon over it all that we have adhered to ever since.

So, TLR, any drive to create "non european based fantasy stores" really need to be from non-europeans inventing their OWN version of "fantasy", not just change the drapes in the same old house and call it "new".

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

IMO, they should take mythology from other continents like Asia and Africa and South America. There is SO MUCH MORE out there than old European myths. Not that I don't enjoy King Arthur and Tolkien.

Yep that's my main issue with modern fantasy

Not to say I'm tired of Orcs, Dwarves and Elves

But I try to read more weird fantasy since those tend to be different than the usual Sword and Sorcery Fantasy

I reccomand China Mieville Bas Lag Trilogy (I haven't read the last book yet)

The first two are fantastic (Perdido Street Station and The Scar)

I think you would really enjoy them

 

[DeafTourette]

J jason10mm and NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt ... Agreed!

There's lots of new fantasy out there but it's mainstream yet. No orcs, Dwarves, dragons (maybe some but they're not traditional Euro versions), etc. Almost all cultures have something like a wizard or shaman or bruja/o or the like... Someone who does magik to help or hinder the hero/es or even village. There's a few techno-fantasy stories out there rooted in African mythology (anywhere from Egyptian to Sudanese to Kenyan) ... Shoot, Mami Wata and Anansi are basically analogous to Mermaids and Loki, respectfully... Albeit with some fundamental differences.

There's some great Chinese fantasy books y'all should look at. I can't remember the name of the author but it's very well rated. I would LOVE to read something pertaining to South American mythology/fantasy ....

When I remember the name of the author and her books, I'll post it here for y'all.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

J jason10mm and NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt ... Agreed!

There's lots of new fantasy out there but it's mainstream yet. No orcs, Dwarves, dragons (maybe some but they're not traditional Euro versions), etc. Almost all cultures have something like a wizard or shaman or bruja/o or the like... Someone who does magik to help or hinder the hero/es or even village. There's a few techno-fantasy stories out there rooted in African mythology (anywhere from Egyptian to Sudanese to Kenyan) ... Shoot, Mami Wata and Anansi are basically analogous to Mermaids and Loki, respectfully... Albeit with some fundamental differences.

There's some great Chinese fantasy books y'all should look at. I can't remember the name of the author but it's very well rated. I would LOVE to read something pertaining to South American mythology/fantasy ....

When I remember the name of the author and her books, I'll post it here for y'all.

She does mostly Science Fiction but I reccomand Octavia Butler

I enjoyed what I read of her stuff (I haven't read alot of her books)