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[Dance Inferno]

I was just re-watching Black Swan, which is a fantastic and riveting psychological thriller, and as I found myself getting engrossed in the narrative and the characters I started to wonder whether a similar experience could be achieved through the medium of video games. In most games the majority of gameplay involves shooting things or solving puzzles, both of which are not activities that one generally associates with a work of serious drama (unless we're talking about war movies, but that's a small subset of drama). When I think of my favorite movies, they all involve interesting characters interacting and building the story through their dialogue, rather than through action shootouts and pushing large blocks around to allow them to reach higher areas.

Games like Heavy Rain and The Walking Dead attempt to act more like movies, but they don't contain much traditional gameplay per se; these games basically boil down to a bunch of QTEs and the occasional shootout or escape sequence where you are given direct control. Then there are other games that deal with more psychological and personal topics (Spec Ops comes to mind), but the narrative is still couched in shooter mechanics, and you spend most of your time fighting enemies rather than interacting with other characters.

Is it possible to create a work of drama in gaming? How do you set up the gameplay for such an experience? It is striking that while there is a wide range of genres in film (drama, thriller, comedy, horror, action, romance, mystery), the same is not true for gaming, and I wonder what can be done to change that.

 

[Izick]

I think Heavy Rain and Walking dead are video game drama, but what about "organic" drama through gameplay? Like when you are running back to a base in Halo while people are shooting all around you, or when you run into a zombie in (early) Resident Evil and you find out your all out of ammo and scrambling for a way out?

 

[orioto]

At least i think it would be interesting to try that really, basing all the interactions, skills and interests on the characters and dialogs, and not adding any action sequence.

But i guess we already have digi comics!

 

[FerDS]

I do think it's possible though very complicated. To be honest I think the biggest problem right now is that stories are not that good or they get longer than needed for the sake of gameplay


PS: also, I think drama doesn't mean dialogs or "explicit" story; the near-end of Journey is a good example of drama in a video game in my view

 

[Camp Lo]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer on Xbox was the closest true drama I've seen

 

[thefro]

At least i think it would be interesting to try that really, basing all the interactions, skills and interests on the characters and dialogs, and not adding any action sequence.

But i guess we already have digi comics!

Phoenix Wright series basically does that. There's some adventure game puzzles but they all fit the investigative narrative and involve interacting with other characters.

The courtroom scenes are pretty much straight up interactive drama where you have to ask the right questions and present the right evidence/press the witness at the right times.

 

[- J - D -]

I was just re-watching Black Swan, which is a fantastic and riveting psychological thriller, and as I found myself getting engrossed in the narrative and the characters I started to wonder whether a similar experience could be achieved through the medium of video games. In most games the majority of gameplay involves shooting things or solving puzzles, both of which are not activities that one generally associates with a work of serious drama (unless we're talking about war movies, but that's a small subset of drama). When I think of my favorite movies, they all involve interesting characters interacting and building the story through their dialogue, rather than through action shootouts and pushing large blocks around to allow them to reach higher areas.

Games like Heavy Rain and The Walking Dead attempt to act more like movies, but they don't contain much traditional gameplay per se; these games basically boil down to a bunch of QTEs and the occasional shootout or escape sequence where you are given direct control. Then there are other games that deal with more psychological and personal topics (Spec Ops comes to mind), but the narrative is still couched in shooter mechanics, and you spend most of your time fighting enemies rather than interacting with other characters.

Is it possible to create a work of drama in gaming? How do you set up the gameplay for such an experience? It is striking that while there is a wide range of genres in film (drama, thriller, comedy, horror, action, romance, mystery), the same is not true for gaming, and I wonder what can be done to change that.

Define 'traditional gameplay', because point-and-click adventure titles have been around a long time.

 

[Currygan]

I was just re-watching Black Swan, which is a fantastic and riveting psychological thriller,

 

[Orayn]

Drama relies on interaction between characters that feels believable to the audience. You can put that in a game, but it tends to be pretty lame from a gameplay standpoint where it'll always be pre-scripted and either completely non-interactive or limited to a dialogue wheel. A solution to doing drama as a game rather than a visual novel or movie lies in the direction of Dwarf Fortress and Facade, rather than Mass Effect, Heavy Rain, and The Walking Dead.

 

[orioto]

Phoenix Wright series basically does that. There's some adventure game puzzles but they all fit the investigative narrative and involve interacting with other characters.

The courtroom scenes are pretty much straight up interactive drama where you have to ask the right questions and present the right evidence/press the witness at the right times.

Indeed i was thinking about that actually.
Also there is this pretty snobbish but interesting game, wither where you just talk to people and try to recover your memory.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Define 'traditional gameplay', because point-and-click adventure titles have been around a long time.

True, although they're not very ubiquitous these days. I'm thinking games that involve direct real-time input, like action games or shooters or racing games, etc.

Good contribution.

Drama relies on interaction between characters that feels believable to the audience. You can put that in a game, but it tends to be pretty lame from a gameplay standpoint where it'll always be pre-scripted and either completely non-interactive or limited to a dialogue wheel. A solution to doing drama as a game rather than a visual novel or movie lies in the direction of Dwarf Fortress's and Facade, rather than Mass Effect, Heavy Rain, and The Walking Dead.

Hmm, I haven't played either of those games, worth checking out? What do they do differently?

 

[Zukuu]

NieR does that pretty well. Even tho, it's a bit in retrospective.

 

[pargonta]

Is it possible to create a work of drama in gaming?
How do you set up the gameplay for such an experience?

It is striking that while there is a wide range of genres in film (drama, thriller, comedy, horror, action, romance, mystery), the same is not true for gaming, and I wonder what can be done to change that.

-yes
-as a dev set boundaries on what you will not be doing (not doing combat, abstraction, fantasy, escapism), and... create new types of gameplay, because that's your job and hopefully your passion

-we can advocate strong narratives in games, be enthusiastic about grounded, realistic, character based, non aggressive and non combat games, and we can push back against people with narrow views about what games can be because, while they are free to enjoy escapist fantasy fiction or whatever floats their boat, the medium should not be set in stone to that drumbeat. we can be progressive activists with an outside of the box attitude and hope for the best!

 

[nasos_333]

I was just re-watching Black Swan, which is a fantastic and riveting psychological thriller, and as I found myself getting engrossed in the narrative and the characters I started to wonder whether a similar experience could be achieved through the medium of video games. In most games the majority of gameplay involves shooting things or solving puzzles, both of which are not activities that one generally associates with a work of serious drama (unless we're talking about war movies, but that's a small subset of drama). When I think of my favorite movies, they all involve interesting characters interacting and building the story through their dialogue, rather than through action shootouts and pushing large blocks around to allow them to reach higher areas.

Games like Heavy Rain and The Walking Dead attempt to act more like movies, but they don't contain much traditional gameplay per se; these games basically boil down to a bunch of QTEs and the occasional shootout or escape sequence where you are given direct control. Then there are other games that deal with more psychological and personal topics (Spec Ops comes to mind), but the narrative is still couched in shooter mechanics, and you spend most of your time fighting enemies rather than interacting with other characters.

Is it possible to create a work of drama in gaming? How do you set up the gameplay for such an experience? It is striking that while there is a wide range of genres in film (drama, thriller, comedy, horror, action, romance, mystery), the same is not true for gaming, and I wonder what can be done to change that.

Check Heavy Rain and Alan Wake

Also the coming Last of Us and Beyond on PS3 seem to be close to that direction

 

[kenjisalk]

btw everything unique/interesting about Black Swan was ripped straight off from Satoshi Kon's film Perfect Blue (the director of BS had licensed the rights to make a live-action version of Perfect Blue for quite a few years, then decided he'd rather make his own inferior version and not give credit for the inspiration or pay any royalties for it).

Yeah I mad, PB is a fantastic film and the motherfucker couldn't even give an 'inspired by' credit to it in BS.

Sorry to derail the thread a bit, just rustles my jimmies how many people think Aronofsky had any original ideas with that film.

 

[The Technomancer]

The main problem is that dialogue and character heavy gameplay is really time intensive to make, especially well. This goes all the way back to games like Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Check Heavy Rain and Alan Wake

Also the coming Last of Us and Beyond on PS3 seem to be close to that direction

I've played both Heavy Rain and Alan Wake. Heavy Rain is a drama in the narrative sense, but gameplay wise it's just a collection of choices and isn't the most engrossing game to play. Alan Wake was basically an action game, and didn't strike me as doing narrative differently than every other shooter out there.

 

[Orayn]

Hmm, I haven't played either of those games, worth checking out? What do they do differently?

Facade is a piece of interactive fiction that attempts to have the player interact with a couple having a disagreement. The dialogue is a bit more complex than a flowchart, since the player actually speaks and has their sentences interpreted by voice recognition software, and the characters device how to respond with AI.

Dwarf Fortress is kind of a general example, since each game has a pretty vivacious cast of simulated characters who all have unique personalities, preferences, wants, and needs. There are plans to give DF a dialogue system where AI characters could actually express themselves through dynamically generated sentences, which would be really useful for a dramatic game, albeit at the cost of voice acting.

 

[nasos_333]

I've played both Heavy Rain and Alan Wake. Heavy Rain is a drama in the narrative sense, but gameplay wise it's just a collection of choices and isn't the most engrossing game to play. Alan Wake was basically an action game, and didn't strike me as doing narrative differently than every other shooter out there.

Indeed AW was closer to the general shooter mechanics, even though at some points did have a stronger adventure feeling than such games

 

[orioto]

I would also add that i think unfortunatly, there IS some kind of antagonism between a rich story and a vieogame. In the way that in your action videogame, the story will be perceived as forced and undesired by certain gamers, cause they're not there for a story. A story is unfortunately an ornament in a game.

That's why i think if you want to tell a rich story, the game has to be the story. It cannot be a story on top of a game, it has to be the game, fully.

 

[Orayn]

I would also add that i think unfortunatly, there IS some kind of antagonism between a rich story and a vieogame. In the way that in your action videogame, the story will be perceived as forced and undesired by certain gamers, cause they're not there for a story. A story is unfortunately an ornament in a game.

That's why i think if you want to tell a rich story, the game has to be the story. It cannot be a story on top of a game, it has to be the game, fully.

I think there's somewhat of a middle ground in the "Immersive Sim" genre typified by System Shock and Deus Ex. The story isn't one with the game and vice versa, but the story is intended to be a natural, seamless part of the game's world. It's an important distinction, since that sub-genre is all about creating verisimilitude first and doing whatever it takes to reinforce that.

 

[FloatOn]

I wish that games would take more influence from film. I've wanted Heat the video game for as long as I can remember.

I think for as much shit as Max Payne 3 got for it's constant cut scenes, I think it did a really great job of creating a cinematic experience while actually having gameplay. There were also some times in Alan Wake where I felt this as well.

Unfortunately though, games require time where you play them and are not just spectating a drama unfold. Perhaps the alternative to this is a wrpg like skyrim where you change the world around you as you play it.

 

[PaulloDEC]

The OP mentions dialogue as being the thing that draws them into the story in films, and I think it's often the same for games. Many of my favourite titles maintain a constant sense of drama and purpose by incorporating a lot of dialogue into the gameplay, so that you aren't just getting your story walled-off in the cutscenes. Brutal Legend is a game I've just played that does this, and Bioshock is another that springs to mind. I'm thinking that Bioshock Infinite is going to make really good use of it too.

If you're not willing to sacrifice gameplay for more traditional storytelling techniques, I think it's probably the best way to go right now.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Facade is a piece of interactive fiction that attempts to have the player interact with a couple having a disagreement. The dialogue is a bit more complex than a flowchart, since the player actually speaks and has their sentences interpreted by voice recognition software, and the characters device how to respond with AI.

Dwarf Fortress is kind of a general example, since each game has a pretty vivacious cast of simulated characters who all have unique personalities, preferences, wants, and needs. There are plans to give DF a dialogue system where AI characters could actually express themselves through dynamically generated sentences, which would be really useful for a dramatic game, albeit at the cost of voice acting.

I watched that Facade video you linked earlier, and it's a very interesting concept. The technology obviously still needs some work since a lot of the time there was a disconnect between what the player was saying and how the AI responded, but I think something in this vein where the player's options are limited but not specifically outlined (i.e. none of that "press x to be angry" or "press y to be nice"). I'm thinking the way choice was handled in Spec Ops, where there are always 2-4 ways to handle each "choice", but you're not specifically told what they are.

 

[speculawyer]

Yes. It plays out with weird pacing because there is narrative mixed with segments of gaming.

But I think the original Bioshock was good drama. And I look forward to Bioshock Infinite providing some good drama. I think the Uncharted series has delivered some decent drama as well.

Sometimes the stories work, sometimes they don't. Sometimes a game can been good despite bad writing because it is a good game. Sometimes games that are not very good can be improved when at least the story is enjoyable. Walking Dead is a great example of that . . . it is nothing but a low-tech point & click adventure that could have been made in the 80's but the story-telling made it so good.


Alan Wake was enjoyed by many for the story . . . I couldn't get into the story. Perhaps I just don't like that genre of fiction and it never made much sense to me. But I stopped reading the pages of transcript because I was bored with them.

 

[Zoc]

Games are superior to books or movies in creating atmosphere and a sense of place, and at their best, equal in creating and presenting believable and interesting characters.

In my experience, the best dramatic games, I think, or at least the best dramatic parts of games, are when you are free to walk around an environment, observe characters, listen to them, have basic interactions with them, and piece together the evidence of the story yourself. Then, use that knowledge to choose your next action.

The problem so far has been that scenes in games like what I described have been a minor part of the games they were in, interrupted by long sections of straight shooting and killing. I'd love to see a game where what I described was the majority of the game, and where your actions are expanded beyond just shooting. The closest so far have been the Deus Ex games, I think.

 

[LiK]

Yakuza games do it damn well.

 

[Orayn]

I watched that Facade video you linked earlier, and it's a very interesting concept. The technology obviously still needs some work since a lot of the time there was a disconnect between what the player was saying and how the AI responded, but I think something in this vein where the player's options are limited but not specifically outlined (i.e. none of that "press x to be angry" or "press y to be nice"). I'm thinking the way choice was handled in Spec Ops, where there are always 2-4 ways to handle each "choice", but you're not specifically told what they are.

Until we have really advanced character/storyteller AI, story-type decisions in video games will always wind up being a flowchart on some level. If making the game feel natural, cohesive, and not game-like is important, the last thing you want to do is show players the underlying flow chart directly. That's why I'm against simplistic dialogue trees, in favor of keyword systems, and also in favor of conversation systems that have meta layers like Deus Ex: HR and Alpha Protocol.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Games are superior to books or movies in creating atmosphere and a sense of place, and at their best, equal in creating and presenting believable and interesting characters.

In my experience, the best dramatic games, I think, or at least the best dramatic parts of games, are when you are free to walk around an environment, observe characters, listen to them, have basic interactions with them, and piece together the evidence of the story yourself. Then, use that knowledge to choose your next action.

The problem so far has been that scenes in games like what I described have been a minor part of the games they were in, interrupted by long sections of straight shooting and killing. I'd love to see a game where what I described was the majority of the game, and where your actions are expanded beyond just shooting. The closest so far have been the Deus Ex games, I think.

I think RPGs are really the best base genre to achieve what you are looking for, as they all generally involve interacting with other characters and advancing the plot by helping others and having others help you, but I think having combat as the main gameplay mechanic is what holds them back from being true drama. The problem is finding another mechanic that could replace combat as the meat-and-potatoes of the gameplay.

 

[AuthenticM]

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

While it might sound silly at first, I thought the first Ratchet and Clank had a fair bit of well done drama. Both Ratchet and Clank hated eachother for a good two thirds of the game, all the while Ratchet was merely concerned with getting revenge. It added a nice layer of tension in a mascot platformer and wasn't overdone or melodramatic. It was tastefully woven into the world and characters without stalling the main narrative. It was a satisfying blending of comedy and drama with well done character arcs, a rarity in many modern games. I don't believe that grittifying the atmosphere with death and darkness is an instant recipe for proper drama.