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Is PSN game sharing hurting Sony and PS3 developers?

gutter_trash said:
what hurts PSN more than XBLA is the lack of fuckin' Demos/Trials fuck fuck fuck fuck

not dropping money on a random DD game that has no Demo fuck

tried the Demo for Scott Pilgrim, liked it bought it,
tried the Demo for Shank; thought it to have slow response on button presses , did not buy it
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I wouldn't even say that. When I boot up the 360. First thing it takes me to is the big colored list of advertisements, specifically noting... New Arcade release. I hit it and I'm taken to the page to buy, demo, and so forth.

PSN on the other hand, I sign up on the system. Get told I need to update if I want to access the store. After the few minutes of updating, followed by few minutes of installing. I restart then log back on, have to log into the store, and finally can see what is available. If I want to see what is new, then I click on the new release side and taken to a layout of small pictures on what is new.

If there is a new title on PSN, unless I know about it prior like from Gaf. I won't even know it exists. The PSN store is just so isolated from the normal OS. While with XBL, whatever comes out that week...I'm going to know about if I like it or not. :lol
 
Mario said:
If you want an "actual" number based on data across multiple games, the number of users for any given game who obtained that game via gamesharing is ~20%.
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More attention needs to be paid to this, it's not often that actual devs give these kind of statistics.
1/5 of your sales is pretty damn ridiculous.
 
Amir0x said:
But don't get angry at me for utilizing a feature that some of Sony's own representatives have told me it's the reason it was there for, just because you don't like it. If you don't like the feature then maybe you should be making games for XBLA or WiiWare.
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Game sharing is not a feature in itself though, it's a phenomenom resulting from Sony's implementation of DRM. If I gave my account's password on GOG.com to someone (or straightaway gave image files) it would still be piracy.
Not that I particularly care anymore, if this ~20% is true, then it's not so much anyway (as not every game sharing download is equal to one copy sold less).
 
corn_fest said:
More attention needs to be paid to this, it's not often that actual devs give these kind of statistics.
1/5 of your sales is pretty damn ridiculous.
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I would pay more attention to it if the details as to how those numbers are calculated are given.

However, the bottom line is that Sony allows it. If developers don't like it, they can disable it or they can move on. Seems pretty simple to me. Or, perhaps said developers should pressure Sony on it more.
 
Kintaro said:
However, the bottom line is that Sony allows it. If developers don't like it, they can disable it or they can move on. Seems pretty simple to me. Or, perhaps said developers should pressure Sony on it more.
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True, although if gamesharing was disabled for most games people with multiple PS3's would be pretty screwed, so I guess they have to either go for more sales (theoretically), or supporting that section of the userbase.

As people have already said, though, the key is demos. It's hard to justify spending ~10 bucks on a game without even being able to try it. So many PSN games don't have demos or have them added to the store really late, though.
 
I'm pretty remember a riot when there were rumors of Sony reducing the numbers of possible share to 3 instead of 5. Loooots of angry gaffers that day!
 
shuri said:
I'm pretty remember a riot when there were rumors of Sony reducing the numbers of possible share to 3 instead of 5. Loooots of angry gaffers that day!
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GAF bitches about anything and everything. Sony increased the font size of the XMB and people bitched.
 
Zoe said:
^ I would think Sidhe would have access to their own usage stats.
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If 20% is the Shatter/GripShift data, it's not "any given game," it's Sidhe's games, which could be unrepresentative in either direction. If 20% is the average across all titles, obviously someone else is gathering the data and it's reasonable to ask where, even if the only answer availableis just "that's the number Sony have provided."

It's certainly, at bare minimum, interesting to know if that's total installed copies that represent a second license use, or there's some additional data being pulled in to separate people who own multiple systems from people sharing with friends.
 
corn_fest said:
As people have already said, though, the key is demos. It's hard to justify spending ~10 bucks on a game without even being able to try it. So many PSN games don't have demos or have them added to the store really late, though.
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Hey, remember folks. Demos screw developers too. That's extra development time and extra money they have to spend to get up working demos. Think of the DEVS.

No, seriously, you guys remember that they bitched about that too right?
 
Amir0x said:
They were ok games, nothing great... but after the Pixeljunk developers decided to be all dumb on me, I just decided not to give them any of my money. That seems to be a fair exchange. I have a friend who allows me to share games, and he has all the Pixeljunk titles, so that's about as much as I will go as far as Q games goes
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Wait, they bitched to you personally or all game sharers? Because if it's everyone, that's their own damn fault. There are other DRM schemes available on PS3 that prevent game sharing. I believe Warhawk and Burnout Paradise prevent you from having the game active on more than one PS3 at a time. There's also the Final Fight Double Impact DRM that stops the game from being used on a PS3 when it has been played on a different system within 24 hours.
 
charlequin said:
If 20% is the Shatter/GripShift data, it's not "any given game," it's Sidhe's games, which could be unrepresentative in either direction. If 20% is the average across all titles, obviously someone else is gathering the data and it's reasonable to ask where, even if the only answer availableis just "that's the number Sony have provided."

It's certainly, at bare minimum, interesting to know if that's total installed copies that represent a second license use, or there's some additional data being pulled in to separate people who own multiple systems from people sharing with friends.
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Wouldn't a person with multiple systems use the same PSN name? It seems like a reasonable way to check game sharing would be to take the amount of names on the leaderboard and subtract the sales.
 
Well game developers/publishers can choose to have game sharing shut off, so this thread doesn't make much sense.
 
Shurs said:
Wouldn't a person with multiple systems use the same PSN name?
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Not necessarily. Say you have one married couple who owned a launch PS3, both played games on it using their own PSN names, and then bought a Slim and moved the first PS3 to a different room. They might install the game on two different PS3s and play it using two different PSN logins, but it's still meaningfully "one" buyer in a way that the same couple handing out one of their five installs to their friend who lives across town isn't.

(Or, I mean, you could count that in the percentage, that'd be fine too if it was clear by the standard that such a use case was included. I'm not sure there's a single rule that'll cover every case accurately, so.)
 
Shurs said:
Wouldn't a person with multiple systems use the same PSN name? It seems like a reasonable way to check game sharing would be to take the amount of names on the leaderboard and subtract the sales.
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Its more complicated than that. I have an account I use on both my PS3s. So that's one account but two machines. But my wife has one account on just one of the PS3s, she does not play the other. So on that one machine, the game is played by two PSN accounts.

So as far as leaderboards for example, I am on there once and my wife once with one purchase. If they look by PS3 machine, then I am on there from two machines, and she from one, still a total of two.

And that's not considered "gamesharing" per definition. Except FF which has locked to user DRM which means if I buy it, I can play it but my wife cannot on her account on the same machine. Or Warkhawk which lets both of use play on one machine, but I have to wait 24 hours to play on my other machine.
 
I say no as Sony themselves have come out to praise the feature. And I agree with others in that if it hurt them too much they would just remove it like other features that have been taken out of the system. They have had plenty of time to determine if it hurts or helps. Look at the Joe Danger guys saying how they made all their money back in the first day. This is with game sharing turned on.

Mario said:
If you want an "actual" number based on data across multiple games, the number of users for any given game who obtained that game via gamesharing is ~20%.
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Is this based on games with or without demos. Some people gameshare since there is no demo available.
 
szaromir said:
Game sharing is not a feature in itself though, it's a phenomenom resulting from Sony's implementation of DRM. If I gave my account's password on GOG.com to someone (or straightaway gave image files) it would still be piracy.
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Oh really? It's not a feature?
Wired circa 2006 said:
Sony announced that players who download games from PlayStation's online shop can share them on up to five other PS3 machines.

If a player logs into his PlayStation 3 account on a friend's system, he can download any game he has already purchased. "You can send that content to four other friends for that initial investment," said Tretton. "We want to get the game in as many hands as possible."

"It's not about generating profits at each and every interaction with the consumer," he said. "I think that really offsets the argument that says, 'Wow, that's a really pricey system.'"
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http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/news/2006/10/71982

I'm going to keep quoting this until people realize this isn't even really a gray area.
 
Chrange said:
Read the Terms of Service, you're not allowed to give out your account details...so how do you account share within the rules?
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You go to your friend's house. Log in. Download a game. Log out.
 
I answered your question. If you go ahead and move the goal post that is called a logical fallacy.
This topic is about gamesharing, not whatever subset you want to talk about.
 
To tell you the truth game sharing made me buy too many games. I haven't bought a psn game since I stopped sharing. I feel free from the contribution pressure. One of my friends are trying to get me to buy Castle Crashers but I looked at the $15 and thought naaaaah, before I'd be racing to buy the game before one of the others did. Game share made me buy some stupid things like Elephunk. I think I only played Crash Commando 3 times, I could have done without Battlefield 1942 also. So much wasted money.
 
bandresen said:
You go to your friend's house. Log in. Download a game. Log out.
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Right. This is the sharing that Sony envisioned and which I believe is perfectly sanctioned. The point is to let our friends try the game and play together which I think should be encouraged.
 
notworksafe said:
Wait, they bitched to you personally or all game sharers? Because if it's everyone, that's their own damn fault. There are other DRM schemes available on PS3 that prevent game sharing. I believe Warhawk and Burnout Paradise prevent you from having the game active on more than one PS3 at a time. There's also the Final Fight Double Impact DRM that stops the game from being used on a PS3 when it has been played on a different system within 24 hours.
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They bitched at me personally on their twitter. It was a thread on neoGAF about recommendations for PSN games, and I had mentioned I got a game of theirs gameshared. Then they twittered something like "it's great to see all these new PS3 owners finding great titles over PSN... except for that Amir0x guy who gameshared our title. What a git."

Then I just said "well ok guess I won't be buying your games ever, bye!"
 
AndyD said:
Right. This is the sharing that Sony envisioned and which I believe is perfectly sanctioned. The point is to let our friends try the game and play together which I think should be encouraged.
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What if my friend lives far away?
 
Ploid 3.0 said:
To tell you the truth game sharing made me buy too many games. I haven't bought a psn game since I stopped sharing. I feel free from the contribution pressure.
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I wonder if there is a general business model for this. E.g. allow iTunes users to add up to 4 friends that they can share music with (which is only available while they have this special share-friend position with your account). Now add a display that constantly shows how many songs they provide you and how many you provide to them. Who would want to leech from their good friends or family members instead of sharing an equal amount of songs? (+ the network effect of listening to music you normally would not).

Well, would probably won't work well with mp3s, but with any DRM controlled media.
 
Amir0x said:
They bitched at me personally on their twitter. It was a thread on neoGAF about recommendations for PSN games, and I had mentioned I got a game of theirs gameshared. Then they twittered something like "it's great to see all these new PS3 owners finding great titles over PSN... except for that Amir0x guy who gameshared our title. What a git."

Then I just said "well ok guess I won't be buying your games ever, bye!"
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you should have bought the game and twittered back. take the highroad.
 
Jax said:
you should have bought the game and twittered back. take the highroad.
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I don't use twitter because I'm not even remotely that self-absorbed, and I don't support games from developers who don't deserve it. They don't deserve it if they're going to act that way about a feature that they must know about if they're developing for PSN.
 
TOM f'N CRUISE said:
WAIT WHAT?!?! How do you share games on the PSN??
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81gfwr9.gif
 
duckroll said:
Are they hurting developers and publishers or are they not?
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Why am I having to answer your question when you didn't do me the courtesy of answering mine? No. Renting, re-selling, and lending to a friend do not hurt developers or publishers in the same way as gamesharing does. One copy per person at any given time. Users revoke their license every time the game changes hands. The sharing is limited by both number of copies and geography. These activities are not even remotely analogous to organised game-sharing as was condoned on NeoGaf.

Amir0x said:
They bitched at me personally on their twitter. It was a thread on neoGAF about recommendations for PSN games, and I had mentioned I got a game of theirs gameshared. Then they twittered something like "it's great to see all these new PS3 owners finding great titles over PSN... except for that Amir0x guy who gameshared our title. What a git."

Then I just said "well ok guess I won't be buying your games ever, bye!"
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So basically they're no worse off than they were before? Gosh, you sure showed them!
 
Jesus, people.

What will be the next "is hurting developers?" target?

Backwards compatibility? Strangely the PS3 changed its luck in the market once it ditched BC.

COINCIDENCE?!
 
I for one appreciate that you can have your PSN games on 5 different consoles. This allows me easy access to my games on both of the PS3s in my home and on my gf's system. Thanks Sony!
 
Amir0x said:
They bitched at me personally on their twitter. It was a thread on neoGAF about recommendations for PSN games, and I had mentioned I got a game of theirs gameshared. Then they twittered something like "it's great to see all these new PS3 owners finding great titles over PSN... except for that Amir0x guy who gameshared our title. What a git."

Then I just said "well ok guess I won't be buying your games ever, bye!"
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Yeah, that's bullshit. If they don't like game sharing then their gripe is with Sony for putting the feature in, not with people who use the feature.
 
Gokurakumaru said:
So basically they're no worse off than they were before? Gosh, you sure showed them!
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The idea of speaking with ones money, unless in the form of some organized boycott, is rarely to force a company to go out of business or to "show them."

It's simple action and reaction. They acted poorly, and I responded. And that's literally the end of that. It only makes myself feel better since I am spending my money wisely.
 
Gokurakumaru said:
So basically they're no worse off than they were before? Gosh, you sure showed them!
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Sure, they're no worse off with regards to that particular game. But in specifically and directly insulting a potential customers, they've guaranteed he won't be buying any of their games, ever, which certainly might not have been the case otherwise. Generally speaking, it's poor business to childishly chase away a customer for life. Typically, that kind of behaviour is only seen in Comic Book Store Guys and John Byrne, neither of whom anyone should want to emulate.
 
Zoe said:
This has been a sore subject for devs since the very beginning.
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The ones that are really hurting voted with their feet and are developing for X360 arcade, Wiiware or Steam or whatever.

FREE MARKET

IS IT HURTING DEVELOPERS?!
 
ElFly said:
The ones that are really hurting voted with their feet and are developing for X360 arcade, Wiiware or Steam or whatever.

FREE MARKET

IS IT HURTING DEVELOPERS?!
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That's assuming they'd be better off on the other services...
 
Zoe said:
That's assuming they'd be better off on the other services...
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See, it seems to me that this is something the end user should never be hearing any complaining about. If they don't like the terms and conditions of Sony's services, developers should be either complaining to Sony or developing elsewhere. Bitching directly at customers about something they knowingly and willingly signed up for with Sony's service is confusing at best and irritating at worst.
 
ElFly said:
The ones that are really hurting voted with their feet and are developing for X360 arcade, Wiiware or Steam or whatever.

FREE MARKET

IS IT HURTING DEVELOPERS?!
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I'm just coming up blank now...

Are there actually developers who were on PSN and decided to switch over to another platform because of game sharing?
 
Segata Sanshiro said:
See, it seems to me that this is something the end user should never be hearing any complaining about. If they don't like the terms and conditions of Sony's services, developers should be either complaining to Sony or developing elsewhere. Bitching directly at customers about something they knowingly and willingly signed up for with Sony's service is confusing at best and irritating at worst.
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Twitter that shit up and call em gits.

You have four other major services(XBL, Steam, WiiWare, and Istore), with dozens of smaller routes to take. Yet the most intelligent idea to solve this problem, was to insult customers using a service provided by the host of your title.
 
ElFly said:
So you are saying that game sharing isn't hurting them.
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No. Only that "damage" from sharing may not be as severe as "damage" from developing on other platforms (be it sales, dev freedom and difficulty, revenue sharing...).
 
Gokurakumaru said:
The sharing is limited by both number of copies and geography.
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And gamesharing is limited by both number of copies and the finite system licenses attached to each copy.

Zoe said:
This has been a sore subject for devs since the very beginning.
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So.... what? There are three console DD services and a huge range of equivalent options on the PC platform, none of which is perfect but between which tons of different developers are finding great success. If gamesharing is a dealbreaker, a developer can go to any of these other platforms.
 
Segata Sanshiro said:
See, it seems to me that this is something the end user should never be hearing any complaining about. If they don't like the terms and conditions of Sony's services, developers should be either complaining to Sony or developing elsewhere. Bitching directly at customers about something they knowingly and willingly signed up for with Sony's service is confusing at best and irritating at worst.
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This is so true it almost brings a tear to my eye.
 
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