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[Goodstyle]

I've been thinking about it, and I've realized that just about every major problem I had with TFA's narrative has been linked to the existence of the First Order. Basically, a carbon copy of the Empire except their political position is super unclear. The First Order is responsible for:

1. The existence of a 3rd Death Star.
2. A series of planets being destroyed that we don't care about and took so much of the tension out of the movie. The bad guys killed billions of people and scored a major victory against the Republic... and it's treated like nothing.
3. Hux and Phasma being empty, lame characters with unclear relationships to Snoke.
4. The generally recycled plotline of an evil "empire" looking for a droid.
5. The fact that a janitor knows the details of a super weapon, and the weakness to it is very similar to the old one.

And the worst of it all is that it doomed the next two movies into being yet another story where they have to take down another evil empire. It pigeonholed the franchise into a very similar place, and that completely sucks.

What the First Order should have been is a terrorist cell that is consisting of the Knights of Ren and a few mercenaries (Phasma could have been one of them) with Snoke pulling the strings. They could have been working in the shadows to destabilize the Republic and spark another civil war, and then seizing power in the chaos. It's different from before, and much like the old Star Wars, it's relevant to people's contemporary fears. What we got instead was just the villains of "A New Hope", but super vague and unclear for some reason.

 

[platakul]

Maybe but the story is Kylo. He's much more fleshed out already than Vader maybe ever was in the OT? Interested to see where his arc goes. The FO stuff is really just window dressing i suppose

 

[Sheroking]

It's not "yet another Empire", it's the same Empire just repackaged and after decades of rebuilding under a new leader.

Which I kind of like because the abject stupidity of Return of the Jedi really doesn't explain why the Empire would just go away because they blew up another space station and threw the old man down an elevator shaft. It would continue in some form.

 

[Rentahamster]

I had similar issues too, OP. I don't think I care about Star Wars enough anymore to give it much attention though. I'll see where they take it in Ep. 8

 

[Back-In-Black]

Yes.

Honestly, they should have gone the route SWTOR did. Star Wars OT was WWII in Space, this new trilogy should have been the Cold War in space. Easy Setup:

The Rebel Alliance, now the New Republic, did not totally defeat the Empire but pushed them back far enough and declared a truce. New Republic has there worlds, Empire has their worlds, each side is secretly planning for the next war with the other to wipe them out for good. Then you could have proxy wars and ethical dilemmas about the New Republic as the depths they are willing to go to gain the upper hand against the Empire pushes more level headed individuals, like Luke, away.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I don't know why they had to rename the Rebels and Empire. Feels pretty arbitrary.

 

[99Luffy]

I dont get how theyre still so powerful. Shouldnt they be like.. the rebels of the OT?

Also, when did the nazi type solidiers start popping up? I dont recall any in 1-3. Do they show up in the cartoon?

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

Their problem is they are stuck in a movie that's basically a modern day Ep 4, but with all the novelty stripped away.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

it does kind of make it feel like everything that happened in EPs 4-6 means shit all and the galaxy is in the same spot it was before.

 

[TheSadRanger]

TFO and RESISTANCE stuff was the worst part of the movie for me personally........

The Senate playing such an insignificant role really bothered me actually.........

I think the old EU handled the empire Remnant stuff a bit better.

 

[aceface]

I don't care about politics in Star Wars. Give me some compelling characters and a bit of development on the good and bad side and I'm good. The prequels got too bogged down in that shit.

 

[kurahador]

I agree with you OP. The more I think about TFA, the more angry I get. The only time I felt this way was after Mass Effect 3 ending -- they both felt really poorly conceived.

 

[Regiruler]

The order should have been in a greatly inferior position to the republic after the fall of the empire. It gives the impression that every character was sitting on their ass between 6 and 7.

 

[The Silver]

god everything about Starkiller Base is horrible, the existence of Rogue One making an even bigger deal out of the Death Star makes it worse.

 

[rootbeerafloat]

The narrative in TFA isn't that important. It just had to be serviceable enough to introduce some new characters and re-establish what Star Wars really is after Lucas fucked it all up with the prequels. It would be nice if they did something a little more intricate with it in VIII, though.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Wasn't the Starkiller base the only base the First Order had?

 

[RedAssedApe]

i think it was just explained poorly. they aren't really like the empire in that they aren't the dominant faction in that part of the galaxy.

 

[- J - D -]

I'm hoping for Ep. 8 to go further into how the collapse of the Empire laid the foundation for the rise of the First Order.

It would make sense that another leader of the Empire would take Sidious's place afterward to begin the rebuilding process, but seeing as the Empire is written as a barely veiled reflection of the Nazi party during WW2, the remaining leaders of the Empire would've been tried and executed after RotJ, as Nazi leaders were at Nuremberg.

But the galaxy is a large place, some could've gone into hiding. 20-odd years is a really quick turnaround though, from collapse to DEATH PLANET.

 

[Oppo]

you guys are basically rehashing writers-room pontificating about Most Important Info type canonical poly-filla whereas all audiences ended up really caring about are the fun fighting/emotional-family type scenes

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Yes.

Honestly, they should have gone the route SWTOR did. Star Wars OT was WWII in Space, this new trilogy should have been the Cold War in space. The Rebel Alliance, now the New Republic, did not totally defeat the Empire but pushed them back far enough and declared a truce. New Republic has there worlds, Empire has their worlds, each side is secretly planning for the next war with the other to wipe them out for good.

Then you could have proxy wars and ethical dilemmas about the New Republic as the depths they are willing to go to gain the upper hand against the Empire pushes more level headed individuals, like Luke, away.

That's pretty much literally what's happening though...?

The Republic was secretly funding the Resistance to keep the the First Order off balance, but weren't aware they had the capacity to build a super weapon, so we're fine with a big ol' cold war for the time being, with guerilla fighters waging a small scale proxy war. There's more to it than that, but that's what's been explained on-screen thus far. Presumably Ep. VIII will go into further detail. From what I heard of older rumors (I've avoided more recent ones) it seems like a less ethical Resistance may be a thing going forward.

 

[Barzul]

Yeah honestly it just seemed like a complete rehash of already explored themes. It was the biggest failing of TFA for me. It ripped off older material. I mean how many fucking Death Stars can be made and destroyed before its determined that they are not worth it at all. Using that similar theme just felt lazy to me. It stuck out even more when I rewatched the movie recently. What I'd like to see is conflict that feels more immediate and not necessarily always building up to some major showdown with yet another Death Star. It's why I liked Rogue One a bit more, some of the stuff that happened just felt more spontaneous. Felt a greater sense of urgency and potential loss than I did with TFA. A whole solar system wiped out and I didn't feel any real sense of loss from the characters.

 

[EatinOlives]

I mean, the Empire didn't completely go away just because the Emperor died. It just created a power vacuum where much crazier leaders took over.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

The First Order and The Resistance are both fucking stupid.

I really don't understand how so many "OT fans" accept that shit that happened with The New Republic.

 

[Sojgat]

I have no problem with the basic concepts (Disney needed/wanted the Stormtroopers, they're a hugely recognizable part of the brand), it's the vagueness that hurts it. Not wanting to fill the movie with info dumps is a good call but they should've done a much better job with the opening crawl.

 

[Big One]

It is a bit confusing, but I do think everything will be explained in due time (in the movies itself).

 

[Back-In-Black]

That's pretty much literally what's happening though...?

The Republic was secretly funding the Resistance to keep the the First Order off balance, but weren't aware they had the capacity to build a super weapon, so we're fine with a big ol' cold war for the time being, with guerilla fighters waging a small scale proxy war. There's more to it than that, but that's what's been explained on-screen thus far. Presumably Ep. VIII will go into further detail. From what I heard of older rumors (I've avoided more recent ones) it seems like a less ethical Resistance may be a thing going forward.

No. First, nothing is explained on-screen to the viewer about the current political situation of the Galaxy. I believe some books talk about it but I've never read them and don't plan to, if it's not in the movie it doesn't count. But, it doesn't matter anyway because all that setup is just used as a pretext to reset the galaxy back to OT levels. Empire (First Order) v. Republic (Resistance), it's WWII in space again not some Cold War of proxy conflicts, mistrust, and MAD.

The very first Flashpoint mission on the Imperial side in SWTOR has you trying to capture a defecting General, what he states about his reason to defect is what we should have gotten:

If you knew what I knew you'd understand. If you heard what both sides are plotting you wouldn't be eager to restart this war. They're building doomsday weapons, shields that envelop planets, missiles that darken suns. Republic and Empire are planning to raze worlds. Annihilate civilizations. It will be unlike anything the Galaxy has seen since The Great Hypserspace War. And, it is too late to stop it. This so called peace is already lost.

SWTOR's class stories are great because you see the faults with both sides as the scars of the last world and their desire to finally defeat the other amidst this current peace destroys the internal political order of both sides.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Definitely. I've been saying as much since TFA came out. You have remnants of the Empire that still seem to have the one up on the rebels despite "losing" 30 years ago, and which seem to have somehow built a significantly more powerful weapon despite, presumably, a fraction of the resources. Makes no sense

 

[TyrantII]

Emipre is to Nazis as the First Order is to North Korea.

It worked for me. You only have two hours to both setup the new franchise and hit all the beats of the old to make it passable. I'm guessing we'll see divergence in the next two films.

 

[99Luffy]

I mean, the Empire didn't completely go away just because the Emperor died. It just created a power vacuum where much crazier leaders took over.

Why not, the republic went from being the united nations with their good guy clones to being the big bad empire with evil storm troopers just because their leader put on a hood.

 

[RevenWolf]

Why not, the republic went from being the united nations with their good guy clones to being the big bad empire with evil storm troopers just because their leader put on a hood.

Yeah they ALL did, no restitance at all, which is sad, I feel like a good trilogy could have been made if not EVERYONE agreed with putting the hood.... maybe a protest or something?

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

That's what happens when all government talk has to be avoided like the plague even if it would provide important context.

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

The Force Awakens is a really shitty movie. Don't waste your brain power on it.

 

[brandonh83]

The Force Awakens is a really shitty movie. Don't waste your brain power on it.

Oh

 

[mdubs]

Yes, and the entire concept of the Resistance is equally strange.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

No. First, nothing is explained on-screen to the viewer about the current political situation of the Galaxy. I believe some books talk about it but I've never read them and don't plan to, if it's not in the movie it doesn't count. But, it doesn't matter anyway because all that setup is just used as a pretext to reset the galaxy back to OT levels. Empire (First Order) v. Republic (Resistance), it's WWII in space again not some Cold War of proxy conflicts, mistrust, and MAD.

The very first Flashpoint mission on the Imperial side in SWTOR has you trying to capture a defecting General, what he states about his reason to defect is what we should have gotten:

SWTOR's class stories are great because you see the faults with both sides as the scars of the last world and their desire to finally defeat the other amidst this current peace destroys the internal political order of both sides.

Hux literally says in the movie that the Republic is backing the Resistance. Everything else I said is more or less stated indirectly through the speech or is readily inferable.

 

[enzo_gt]

Love the film but I don't disagree with any of your points, OP. Definitely a weak point of the movie and they're not given a good reason to exist (unless you go beyond the films and make some inferences), and primarily serve the machinations of Kylo Ren. Not to mention they do Phasma's dirty by making her a comic relief.

I've no doubt they'll go more into it's genesis and the Hux/Kylo/Snoke dynamic in Episode 8, but for the time being it was pretty lackluster.

 

[Nydius]

I believe some books talk about it but I've never read them and don't plan to, if it's not in the movie it doesn't count.

This isn't strictly true. If it's in any of the books PRIOR to the Disney acquisition of the SW license, then you're right and they don't count. However, once Disney took over and moved all of the old expanded universe under the "Legends" banner, they announced all future Star Wars branded media A) had to be approved by Disney (dba Lucasfilm) and B) were going to be canon and included in the same timeline as the 6 movies, The Clone Wars, SW: Rebels, the upcoming trilogy movie, and all tie-in movies.

Any officially published Star Wars books now are no longer "expanded universe" but rather one unified, Disney approved, timeline. All stuff prior is considered glorified fanfiction, including years of LucasArts' games. =/

But back on topic:

Everything about TFA is a contrived narrative mess. I suspect that once the "omg Star Wars" sheen wears off, the diehard fans who mindlessly rated it highly will turn on it and put it beside The Phantom Menace as one of the worst travesties to ever happen to the franchise.

 

[pa22word]

Yes, totally. The thing just felt incredibly boring in a well meaning but tired call back to a new hope. Move on with the series, the entire point of 4-6 was destroying the empire. Now instead of doing anything interesting with the series they're just running on a treadmill. Snore.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Yeah they ALL did, no restitance at all, which is sad, I feel like a good trilogy could have been made if not EVERYONE agreed with putting the hood.... maybe a protest or something?

Umm
Prequels and Clone Wars

For all intents and purposes The Empire is just The Republic.
The Republic senate is around till ANH.

 

[hipsterpants]

Everything about the Starkiller base is stupid tbh.

I think the First Order itself isn't too bad, as other say the existence of a power vacuum and it's not all like all of the empire's forces were destroyed along with the second death Star. I think the Resistance is much dumber and is a crappy way to reintroduce the "rebel" faction though superpowers supporting smaller groups against their enemies isn't exactly unheard of.

Honestly it's just depressing how spectacularly incompetent the New Republic turns out to be. No wonder Luke gave up to go live on an island in the middle of nowhere.

 

[dhonk]

I think it was a massive cop out, and shows a lack of vision for the future of the series yeah.

 

[Back-In-Black]

Hux literally says in the movie that the Republic is backing the Resistance. Everything else I said is more or less stated indirectly through the speech or is readily inferable.

So one line in a speech over half-way into the movie appropriately setups that there is a Cold War peace between the New Republic and First Order. And, said peace is immediately shattered because Nazi General says that the New Republic is aiding the Resistance, who before the speech we inferred was the New Republic thus excusing their destruction. Okay.

Also again, even if you accept this as explaining the current political climate how is that the Cold War in space I proposed. Like I said this setup is immediately abandoned to reset the Galaxy back to small Rebels v. Empire in WWII in Space.

This isn't strictly true. If it's in any of the books PRIOR to the Disney acquisition of the SW license, then you're right and they don't count. However, once Disney took over and moved all of the old expanded universe under the "Legends" banner, they announced all future Star Wars branded media A) had to be approved by Disney (dba Lucasfilm) and B) were going to be canon and included in the same timeline as the 6 movies, The Clone Wars, SW: Rebels, the upcoming trilogy movie, and all tie-in movies.

Any officially published Star Wars books now are no longer "expanded universe" but rather one unified, Disney approved, timeline. All stuff prior is considered glorified fanfiction, including years of LucasArts' games. =/

But back on topic:

Everything about TFA is a contrived narrative mess. I suspect that once the "omg Star Wars" sheen wears off, the diehard fans who mindlessly rated it highly will turn on it and put it beside The Phantom Menace as one of the worst travesties to ever happen to the franchise.

Breh, I know all about the current canon. What I'm saying is that you cannot expect the film going audience to have knowledge from the EU, if it's not explained in the movies then it isn't properly setup. I love Rebels but if Ezra and Kanan just showed up in Ep. 8 with zero setup or explanation I would call that nonsense.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

I also didn't really like the term "the resistance." Thought the republic had basically won after ROTJ?

 

[RevenWolf]

Umm
Prequels and Clone Wars

Spoiler

woosh

The entire OT is about the rebellion from planets that don't agree with being ruled as an empire, the post I was replying to was completely incorrect.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

TFA is part one of a trilogy that had the heavy lifting duties of restoring the Star Wars "feel" to the universe after the prequels, while simultaneously introducing new characters and tying those characters to the past so old fans would be drawn back into the fold after the prequels shit in their mouths.

Wait for the next two parts to flesh out the actual universe before declaring it all a failure.

Seriously, it's like being pissed that the One Ring wasn't destroyed at the end of Fellowship. You're in for a longer story. Let it play out.

 

[Obliterator]

It's certainly one of the many problems of that film. The entire Starkiller base is super redundant from the original trilogy. I'm hoping Episode XIII and IX do a lot to change the formula up

 

[RevenWolf]

I also didn't really like the term "the resistance." Thought the republic had basically won after ROTJ?

The resistance is a seperate entity from the republic.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Definitely. I've been saying as much since TFA came out. You have remnants of the Empire that still seem to have the one up on the rebels despite "losing" 30 years ago, and which seem to have somehow built a significantly more powerful weapon despite, presumably, a fraction of the resources. Makes no sense

The Republic is more powerful than the First Order. The issue was the First Order put all of their resources into the building of Starkiller base, which the used to basically "Space Pearl Harbor" the Republic and destroy the resting fleet.

This isn't strictly true. If it's in any of the books PRIOR to the Disney acquisition of the SW license, then you're right and they don't count. However, once Disney took over and moved all of the old expanded universe under the "Legends" banner, they announced all future Star Wars branded media A) had to be approved by Disney (dba Lucasfilm) and B) were going to be canon and included in the same timeline as the 6 movies, The Clone Wars, SW: Rebels, the upcoming 7th movie, and all tie-in movies.

Any officially published Star Wars books now are no longer "expanded universe" but rather one unified, Disney approved, timeline. All stuff prior is considered glorified fanfiction, including years of LucasArts' games. =/

They mean it doesn't count for them. There are those on GAF that say that anything that isn't a Saga film isn't canonical and doesn't count to them because they say it doesn't count and that's that. Not even Rogue One, or George Lucas's baby The Clone Wars. More specifically though, they mean from it doesn't count from a storytelling perspective for Episode VII, because it's external material.

I also didn't really like the term "the resistance." Thought the republic had basically won after ROTJ?

They did. The Resistance is an extremely small group of fighters being secretly funded by the Republic. The Republic had a massive fleet, but much of it was destroyed by the Starkiller weapon firing, which is why the tiny Resistance had to launch their attack without the support of an actual full-size fleet.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Spoiler

woosh

The entire OT is about the rebellion from planets that don't agree with being ruled as an empire, the post I was replying to was completely incorrect.

My bad I didn't actually read the chain you were responding to.

 

[Barzul]

Seriously if there's another Death Star or similar design in the next one, I'm tempted to say I'm just gonna be done with the franchise. There's other more exciting forms of warfare in that universe I'm sure.