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Is the hate for paid mods justifiable?
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
We went through paid mods, too and spent a lot of time working on something very different.
Articles like this one give a better impression of what you can expect from Creation Club. The work that's coming from Creation Club is mostly from BGS, but we also are contracting folks. Many of those people already are contracted to do work for us on games in the past, but we've also reached out to a select # of folks that make content within the community. They make great stuff, so why not see if they want to develop content in a official capacity?
Whether it's made internally or contracted, it's all work based upon a business relationship between our team and folks creating content. This is very different from Paid Mods, where an author could independently put up anything they wanted for purchase.
We still want to support modding. It's been a huge part of our PC community since Morrowind, and recently adding mods to consoles is something we're really excited about. Creation Club is us trying something new, but it's never meant to replace what the modding community has done. We still want people making mods -- and mods should be free.
There are some stuff that would be easy for developers to enable for Creation Club participants and maybe then rest of community, like shader code, so for example making good DoF, SSR and Motion Blur would be easy.
Thats what i'm mostly getting at. Some improvements to Creation Tool code base which are not critical in sense of creation of standard content, but if people want something not out of box, they would need to spend a lot reenginering or hacking to get wanted effect.
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I still think they see value in free mods and because Creation Club is not automated platform (cant be) and will require full stuff to maintain, i dont think they would want to flood it with small or poor quality mods.
Remember that they are paying for those mods/dlcs upfront, so unless they'll agree to filter out everything thats not fitting for Creation Club away, so 95% of mods, there is no risk to normal modding communities.
Removing full mod functionality would be really radical for them. It can happen, but i dont think it will.
Kyle8497
Member
Mods have historically been user-made content that was forged from the souls of passionate gamers in a game's community.
What paid mods does is take those friendly, open, gaming communities and makes it something that resembles a corporation rather than a community of passionate gamers.
If modders/gamers really want to make money off of mods, they should just go into a gaming career. Sure, donations have always been a thing, but that's optional payment if you want to support a modder that you appreciate. Modding as a job, as paid mods would make it out to be, wouldn't be good enough income. I think gamers would even be more open to donating rather than going through a virtual checkout counter for some business.
What paid mods does is take those friendly, open, gaming communities and makes it something that resembles a corporation rather than a community of passionate gamers.
If modders/gamers really want to make money off of mods, they should just go into a gaming career. Sure, donations have always been a thing, but that's optional payment if you want to support a modder that you appreciate. Modding as a job, as paid mods would make it out to be, wouldn't be good enough income. I think gamers would even be more open to donating rather than going through a virtual checkout counter for some business.
yurinka
Member
I can understand the hate in the cases where to include paid mods would mean to block free mods.
If free mods are still allowed, paid mods are ok for me. It's a good way to support the best modders, maybe even allowing them to spend more time and improve making mods (even to create a career as modder or future gamedev) and to provide a new revenue source for the game creators.
It's also good for players because if curated correctly (player reviews or including only the best modes), it can be a easy to use, well integrated in-game without needing to modify or patch files, and without needing to browse many pages, way to use mods that would make them more accesible to many people.
Big games get more and more expensive to make, and most indie devs don't generate enough money to continue, so if this helps everybody, it's ok for me.
As an example, there is a SFV modder who is awesome, and I think his costumes and mods are better than the ones sold by Capcom. I'd gladly pay for them but right now being free I don't use them because aren't properly integrated in-game and the process to use them it's a bit complicated and dark.
If free mods are still allowed, paid mods are ok for me. It's a good way to support the best modders, maybe even allowing them to spend more time and improve making mods (even to create a career as modder or future gamedev) and to provide a new revenue source for the game creators.
It's also good for players because if curated correctly (player reviews or including only the best modes), it can be a easy to use, well integrated in-game without needing to modify or patch files, and without needing to browse many pages, way to use mods that would make them more accesible to many people.
Big games get more and more expensive to make, and most indie devs don't generate enough money to continue, so if this helps everybody, it's ok for me.
As an example, there is a SFV modder who is awesome, and I think his costumes and mods are better than the ones sold by Capcom. I'd gladly pay for them but right now being free I don't use them because aren't properly integrated in-game and the process to use them it's a bit complicated and dark.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I don't see why any of these problems mean people working shouldn't be paid for their work.
The biggest problem of paid mods, in my opinion, is that they (Valve and Bethesda) simply wanted to change the model business and that is it. Instead of downloading them for free like we have been doing for years, now you have to pay for them without any additional benefit for the customer. I mean, if they actually offered better mod support and compatibility or even help the modders (because the first time it was proposed, they took a huge cut from the price of the mod), but they just want to receive money without any involvement at all. For Bethesda and Valve is a win/win but for the customer is just a worse situation and for the modders, who knows, maybe people are willing to pay for mods and they can make a living from making them, but I doubt it to be honest.
So yeah, I am sorry but I am against it because I fail to see how this would be positive for me. We allow too many anti-consumer things in this hobby already and I am fed up.
So yeah, I am sorry but I am against it because I fail to see how this would be positive for me. We allow too many anti-consumer things in this hobby already and I am fed up.
The thing is that they don't need to completely open the Creation Club gate to everyone for them to see free mods as a direct competition with the Creation Club. Based on their presentation it will have small things like new weapons or armor, which is something people can get in huge amount for free with mods.
I'm not saying it will happen, but that it might, even if it's not really a "fair" comparison ( since it's not the result of official modding tools ) we just saw how Take Two reacted to modding once they perceived it as a competition with GTA Online.
That's only one possibility out of many ( some could be positive one like tools improvement you cited ), my other example was just about them delaying modding tool so that the Creation Club wouldn't have competition for a given time. There is other posibilites like crippled modding tools to make the creation comparatively more attractive.
Auto-Reply
Member
There happened something similar to the Cheat Engine Forums, it's obviously different and there was no direct money involved but the possibility for Nexusmods and the like to find a c&d letter in their mail box some day, out of the blue, is rather high with this.
Another aspect is that Bethesda is changing modder motivation even outside of monetary motivation. They can't support certain mods because of copyright infringment, nobody's paying money for Thomas the Tank Engine anyway, right? So they are allowed to exist in the free world if someone is left wanting to make these, until that c&d hits and then they are gone entirely or reduced and scattered on various boards, organisation and security gone (Create your Bethesda account everyone, welcome!)
If their intentions are pure then this still seems to be a "Can't have your cake and it it too" deal for Bethesda.
This is bullshit.
Reminds me of when I asked the Executive Chef at an old job, for a raise, and his response was, "I thought you cooked because you love the art, and it's not about the money?"
Talented artists deserve to get paid.
How do you feel about unpaid internships in terms of "portfolio building" and "doing it for the love?"
Angry Fork
Member
People being paid for their work is fine, I just don't believe Bathesda should get a cut because I don't believe in intellectual property. They are cynically using humanitarian arguments in order to profit by exploiting people who would rather work for something than nothing. If Bathesda really cared about the plight of modders they would let them have full cut, but of course that won't happen.
Also as Valve has done, this is a way to outsource work the developer should be doing to individuals, without offering them the benefits traditional employment should give (like healthcare, vacation, etc). But all that stuff is going away with traditional employment as well since the unions were destroyed.
Also as Valve has done, this is a way to outsource work the developer should be doing to individuals, without offering them the benefits traditional employment should give (like healthcare, vacation, etc). But all that stuff is going away with traditional employment as well since the unions were destroyed.
Darkstorne
Member
Two huge issues with paid mods:
1) Ongoing support. It's very rare for mods to launch as "complete". Most launch in an early access state with more to come, which mod authors usually abandon at various stages for whatever reason, so you're not getting what you paid for if they give up. Even if they wait until full completion before launching the mod, official updates frequently break mods, and mod authors may not be around any more to update their mods. That was a crippling issue for the previous paid mod system, and my biggest concern. The new system suggests Bethesda may take it upon themselves to keep mods up to date, which would be great, and also suggests this isn't going to be as widespread a mod system as people believe.
2) Profit distribution for large mods. I just don't see large mods happening because of this, which is what a lot of people want to see more of specifically because of monetization. Modding is not full time. It's not even part time. It's on and off as and when modders have both the free time and the motivation. I'm a part of the Beyond Skyrim team but a very small part. I'm one of hundreds of modders who have been contributing on and off throughout the past five years. How do you work out how to pay that many people? How do you split it? Do you pay the people who are no longer active but contributed assets and work years ago? How do you get hold of them? What about the inevitable disagreements and fallouts during development from team leads? That gets a lot messier with money involved. And that money is not consistent throughout development, it comes right at the end upon release, after years and years of hard work.
I can only see this working well for individuals and small teams, rather than large teams. And even then only if Bethesda promises to manually patch those mods for compatibility with official updates themselves.
1) Ongoing support. It's very rare for mods to launch as "complete". Most launch in an early access state with more to come, which mod authors usually abandon at various stages for whatever reason, so you're not getting what you paid for if they give up. Even if they wait until full completion before launching the mod, official updates frequently break mods, and mod authors may not be around any more to update their mods. That was a crippling issue for the previous paid mod system, and my biggest concern. The new system suggests Bethesda may take it upon themselves to keep mods up to date, which would be great, and also suggests this isn't going to be as widespread a mod system as people believe.
2) Profit distribution for large mods. I just don't see large mods happening because of this, which is what a lot of people want to see more of specifically because of monetization. Modding is not full time. It's not even part time. It's on and off as and when modders have both the free time and the motivation. I'm a part of the Beyond Skyrim team but a very small part. I'm one of hundreds of modders who have been contributing on and off throughout the past five years. How do you work out how to pay that many people? How do you split it? Do you pay the people who are no longer active but contributed assets and work years ago? How do you get hold of them? What about the inevitable disagreements and fallouts during development from team leads? That gets a lot messier with money involved. And that money is not consistent throughout development, it comes right at the end upon release, after years and years of hard work.
I can only see this working well for individuals and small teams, rather than large teams. And even then only if Bethesda promises to manually patch those mods for compatibility with official updates themselves.
Stallion Dan
Member
If you supported modders previously it should be no different.
If you freeloaded then yeah it's an issue.
If you freeloaded then yeah it's an issue.
Your boss was being a dick, but this analogy is not valid at any level.
Bolivar687
Banned
The hate isn't justifiable.
However, the skepticism that IP and platform holders will manage it in a constructive way that benefits the community is real.
However, the skepticism that IP and platform holders will manage it in a constructive way that benefits the community is real.
I'm all for creators being rewarded for their efforts, and yes that includes the original devs getting a cut for making the game/engine in the first place.
However, if it does down the paid DLC route rather than the current 'tipjar' then that takes things to a different place for me where the performance and compatibility between mods needs to be guaranteed. There needs to be a demo or refund system in place for those mods that impact performance too much but you can't tell until installed.
I appreciate that takes things into the realm of QA etc, but the second that you charge upfront you change the expectation of where the risk lies should you choose to use that mod.
However, if it does down the paid DLC route rather than the current 'tipjar' then that takes things to a different place for me where the performance and compatibility between mods needs to be guaranteed. There needs to be a demo or refund system in place for those mods that impact performance too much but you can't tell until installed.
I appreciate that takes things into the realm of QA etc, but the second that you charge upfront you change the expectation of where the risk lies should you choose to use that mod.
afternoon delight
Member
I have no faith whatsoever that paid and free mods can coexist with content tags and company approval, companies will never allow free versions to sit right beside what they're charging.
Agreed 100%.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
If it blocks free and community mods, the yes. 100%.
What...? Big name MMO server issues only happens during the launch/expansion/popular event launch and it only happens for a few days at most, where as mod incompatibilities happen every day and modding communities have specific sections for them. FF14, WoW, GW2, etc don't have server issues daily unlike mods.
Okay, and again that's you. As I said before people don't want to pay money for programs that don't work or are buggy which is why the PC community have created PCGamingWiki, PC performance threads, and bad ports get a major bad rap when ever one gets released. There's a public outcry for this, because as I said before, it costs money.
There's really nothing much more to discuss if you're fine with paying for mods being incompatible and buggy. As I said before I'm not against paid mods and I believe a PWYW model could be incredibly successful for mods, but being so anti-consumer and disregarding the major flaws in it just terrible.
Modders getting paid would be a good thing. Companies like Steam and Bethesda getting their hands in the pie will make the whole thing for the worse though. Overall i think there needs to be some form of fair use legislature for gaming infrastructure. Similarly how you can pick berries and mushrooms etc from a private forest for their own use(whatever it may be) in Finland without owners permission.
If it's approached as a means to oppress or abuse an ecosystem from a place of avarice then yeah, it's fucked up.
There's probably a really great way to approach paid mods that hasn't been tackled yet. Perhaps because it's possible - even if not super probable - that those who don't want to take advantage of their fanbase in this manner won't spend much time tackling the issue in the first place, and will simply leave the community alone. Even if there is good to be done.
Same problem of "many who would make great kings don't want the position." You get real lucky when someone does.
There's probably a really great way to approach paid mods that hasn't been tackled yet. Perhaps because it's possible - even if not super probable - that those who don't want to take advantage of their fanbase in this manner won't spend much time tackling the issue in the first place, and will simply leave the community alone. Even if there is good to be done.
Same problem of "many who would make great kings don't want the position." You get real lucky when someone does.