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[LelouchZero]

Some of the PC Community shared their disapproval with the paid mods system which made it's way onto Steam for Skyrim in 2015 before it was shortly pulled due to this disapproval.

Introducing New Ways to Support Workshop Creators (Steam)

Now it looks like Bethesda are taking another shot at monetizing mods and compensating the mod creators in a somewhat different and potentially more restricted and polished way with the "Creation Club". I'm interested in seeing how it fairs.

Creation Club for Fallout 4 & Skyrim Special Edition – E3 Announce Trailer (YouTube)

I love mods, they can greatly enhance the gameplay experience, mods are often a community effort which modifies a game, they can be small game play tweaks or may significantly transform a game, introducing new game modes, adding multiplayer or creating a new game entirely. From mods, games like DOTA and Counter Strike were born, which have since become two of the most played games on Steam, often holding the top two positions.

Online multiplayer was first introduced to Grand Theft Auto games by mod creators, people still actively play these games and they still have sizable communities to this day, like the San Andreas multiplayer mod.
EDIT: Actually, multiplayer for 3D GTA was introduced by mod creators, 2D GTA games like GTA and GTA 2 had multiplayer, with the latter having online multiplayer.

San Andreas Multiplayer

People like creating and sharing with others, and transforming game play experiences. They may even develop a reputation for themselves in the modding community and be sent much love from others for their appreciation for their work.

I like the concept of compensating mod creators for all their time and effort, as they're doing this mod creation on their own accord and mods can help make a game's community bigger and last longer, it's even become a selling point for Skyrim and Fallout 4 on the current gen consoles.

My issue with the paid mods system in 2015 was the cut the mod creators were getting, was there anything that could be done about it? Maybe, as Bethesda were supposedly getting 45% and mod creators were getting 25. Both the mod creators and Bethesda stand to gain from monetizing mods, compared to nothing for all parties. It's obviously their IP but I feel they could have been a bit more flexible in this matter and adjusted the cut slightly in the favour of mod creators. I'm quite curious about the cut that the Creation Club will provide mod creators.

To be honest, the real issue wasn't the cut the mod creators were getting, it was that the community didn't feel comfortable with paying for mods. There's probably hundreds of discussions about why this may be the case. One of which is the rift that people feel was created between free and paid mods, and the fear that free mods will cease to exist or no longer possess the quality they once had.

I think this is the biggest issue with the concept of paid mods, and why people have an issue with it, I'm not even sure about what can be done to alter this perception as it could affect the modding community in negative ways or positive ways.

One positive outcome could be that mod creators can spend more time creating bigger and better mods with a paid mods system, a negative outcome could be that the number or quality of free mods dwindles, and people become more focused on profiting. Perhaps this could be used to argue that mod creators should only get 25 percent?

Just look at the YouTube dislikes on the Creation Club E3 announcement trailer.

(24/06/2017 - 11:39 GMT)

I wonder what their reasons for disliking the video were?

I'm open minded and would love to hear what people feel is good and bad about the concept of monetizing mods. What are your thoughts on paid mods?

 

[ActWan]

Yes.

 

[Greddleok]

I don't think so. People put a ton of time into these mods, why shouldn't they be rewarded for it?

The cut that Bethesda or Valve takes...well that's another issue.

 

[RalchAC]

Wasn't the controversy last year that creators only got a small % of the sale of a mod? Most money went to Steam and Bethesda.

 

[Hasney]

Not at all. As long as free mods aren't blocked to only use a paid service and there is a system in place to check for stolen code/assets, then its fine.

The most egregious thing in the creators club so far is it uses moon points instead of actual currency. That means I'm out.

 

[ronaldthump]

I dont see too much of an issue if the cut to mod creators was more generous than it was before. If modders want to create mods for pay, why not. At the end of the day, you vote with your wallet.

Wasn't the controversy last year that creators only got a small % of the sale of a mod? Most money went to Steam and Bethesda.

yeah that was the controversy. They got greedy.

 

[BassForever]

Of course

At the same time like paid online, dlc, and microtransactions in $60 games, it's an inevitability. Economics always wins out and there is far too much money to be made by both modders and bethesda for paid mods not to become the standard.

 

[Stormblessed]

Beyond paying for something that used to be free, people were also uneasy because mods often build off one another, and how do you decide how the money should be split between all the people with a potential stake? It still seems to me that they're pushing from the top down on a change that needs to be from the bottom up.

 

[Spukc]

No its fucking immature .

If you as a content creator want money for your mod then bless you

 

[eot]

I think there value in having a community not governed by capitalism. There are plenty of markets for people to sell their content and if that's their goal they can go to those instead of the modding scene.

 

[Kageshinzo]

The relationship between modders and the users is one of trust. For the most part, modding has been a labor of love within the community, which means that monetary reasons take a backseat. If people wanted to reward modders for their hard work, there has always been ways to do so in the form of PayPal donations and, recently, Patreon. At least in this way, modders get almost all of the funds directed their way.

The whole paid mod issue was an unwanted wrench into how the modding community has been working for decades. PC users know this, hence the backlash. If you're primarily a console user, I guess it would be understandable that you wouldn't know of this.

 

[Mutombo]

I see a mod like a franchise. You take a household license, name and whatever, but customize it your own way.

It's totally justifiable for the household name to take a small percentage, and it's totally justifiable for the modders to ask something in return.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I am not against modders being paid for their work. I think that's a grand idea. I am against the way these things have been handled so far. It's less the cut the publisher takes that bothers me - I'm alright with them getting a cut in principle, even if the Steam implementation was outrageous - but the lawless wastelands marketplaces have been so far. It was a matter of days before someone got busted jacking someone else's work on the Skyrim workshop. These things need far more regulation and active policing/vetting than I think a lot of publishers realize.

This is not the turn-key operation Bethesda and Valve seemed to want the first time around; they are creating an economy that will quite likely become some peoples' livelihoods or portfolios. It needs to be taken seriously. Otherwise, avenues like Patreon are going to end up being the best route for modders to take.

Of course

At the same time like paid online, dlc, and microtransactions in $60 games, it's an inevitability. Economics always wins out and there is far too much money to be made by both modders and bethesda for paid mods not to become the standard.

I don't see why independent creators getting paid for their labor is in the same realm as microtransactions. The whole "it's a labor of love!" thing is a terrible perspective, because it implies people who would like to be compensated for their modding, coding, art, etc aren't really doing it "for the love."

 

[Aaron]

I dont see too much of an issue if the cut to mod creators was more generous than it was before. If modders want to create mods for pay, why not. At the end of the day, you vote with your wallet.



yeah that was the controversy. They got greedy.

But Valve takes a giant cut from things like Dota 2 items, and it hasn't triggered a revolt yet.

 

[SarcasticRobot]

A large issue I have with paid mods is that there's actual rights to a given mod. If someone creates a mod (even if they want it to be free), someone else with a larger following can then take that mod, essentially resubmit it, monetize it, and reap the rewards.

So, how is Bethesda going to ensure the creators of a mod are not having their work ripped off? How much resources are they willing to put into it?

I'm sure this happens all the time with mods currently. It's the way of the internet. And if you could charge for mods without Bethesda's input, I would understand Bethesda shrugging their shoulders and saying "not our problem." But once they have their hand in the pot financially speaking, in my opinion, their responsibility to mod creators changes.

For the record, I'm a huge fan of Bethesda games, and would gladly pay for a mod I wanted if I felt it was worth it, but I can see how it's problematic.

 

[Hektor]

Theres big amount of issues that have to be solved first

• Mods that build on other mods
• Guarantees that they actually work as well as guarantees that they're getting continued support if patches for the game break them
• Incompability with other mods

All these are things i generally would not expect from a mod, but the moment i'm supposed to pay for them they become a commercial product that i expect the same qualities and guarantees from that i expect from any other.

These are all issues i have not seen a solution to yet.

Secondly, the idea that Bethesda earns money via other people selling fixes for their own freakin' game is absurd and absolutely not something i can support. At all.

There are so many mods that simply do things that should've been done by Bethesda themselfs like SkyUI, them earning money by launching a game with issues and having other people fixing these issues is ridicilous.

Im absolutely not opposed to paid mods per se, i already support a lot of community projects via paypal donate and patreon, but as long as i don't have the same guarantees i have for every other commercial product and as long as companies like Bethesda or Valve take the majority of the proceeds (lol @ "we are doing this for the modders"), they can, to put it in simple words, get fucked.

But Valve takes a giant cut from things like Dota 2 items, and it hasn't triggered a revolt yet.

Dota 2 is also a free2play game and not a 60$ title that is one of the best selling singleplayer titles on PC because of mods

 

[Qassim]

I'm fine with people having the freedom to charge for their work. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

There are many logistical issues to get around to make sure it's fair to seller and buyer though, the first launch of Steam paid mods didn't really address those well enough.

 

[lazygecko]

I can't really see the Creation Club being fessible to monetize larger, more ambbitious efforts involving the contributions of several people. Deciding how the money should be split and who deserves more/less would be too disruptive on the collaborative spirit cultivated by the free modding scene. And even if a mod in question might be a single person effort, depending on the scope it might be using public resources created by others meant for modders to use, so how would that factor in?

There are too many practical problems like the for the Creation Club to have any hope of competing with the quality coming out of the free mod scene. You probably won't see much more than cosmetic style mods they showed in the video.

 

[Renekton]

Modders should be allowed to seek payment for their work.

I'm way out of my depth on the logistics though - plagiarism, curation, QA, listing, royalty, etc

 

[packy34]

Yes.

Modding is work done by fans out of love for a game. They want to improve on something they enjoy and share it with the world. This is how modding has existed for decades in the PC space.

If the "paid mods" cancer spreads, it's not going to be about love of a game anymore. It's going to be about small startups rushing to push out as many skin packs as possible at 99 cents a piece. It's going to be an App Store-esque mess with trash everywhere. Worst of all, it could kill the desire of many talented and dedicated modders already out there working hard to continue making content.

If you like a mod, donate to the modder if possible. Don't allow publishers to take control. Don't buy Bethesda's Fun Bux.

 

[wedca]

It is unnecessary to formalize it and it really just comes down to Bethesda wanting a cut. Mod creators who want money for their work have avenues for getting paid already, Patreon has already been mentioned and it works well for many who use it.

Edit: Additionally, I think it is likely that at some point this will lead to companies trying to exclude or eliminate free mods.

 

[Lime]

Only when multimillion/-billion companies are exploiting the modders for their labor.

 

[Renekton]

Modding is work done by fans out of love for a game. They want to improve on something they enjoy and share it with the world. This is how modding has existed for decades in the PC space.

Can't modders be paid for doing something they love? Is it mutually exclusive?

 

[LordRaptor]

No, if someone wants to charge money for their work they are and should be allowed to do so*.

* disclaimers about it being their work and that they have the legal rights to sell it go here

 

[Eumi]

If someone wants to charge for a mod that's fine, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to be critical of that. If the mod was worth the money, there wouldn't be a backlash.

 

[Kageshinzo]

Can't modders be paid for doing something they love? Is it mutually exclusive?

Like mentioned, modders who wanted monetary compensation have always been able to do so via PayPal donations (and Patreon, in recent years). And users have always been willing and glad to do so for those modders that they want to support. The issue of being paid and compensated has never been a problem in the modding scene for decades now. It was a non-issue, but for a cut of the money some reason, publishers are poking their hands on it.

 

[lazygecko]

Also, multiplayer was a feature in GTA since the very first game.

 

[packy34]

Can't modders be paid for doing something they love? Is it mutually exclusive?

They sure can. Donations. Sites like nexusmods have made donation links/popups much more visible recently to help drive more of this.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Like mentioned, modders who wanted monetary compensation have always been able to do so via PayPal donations (and Patreon, in recent years). And users have always been willing and glad to do so for those modders that they want to support. The issue of being paid and compensated has never been a problem in the modding scene for decades now. It was a non-issue, but for <strikethrough>a cut of the money</strikethrough> some reason, publishers are poking their hands on it.

And what's wrong with another way to get revenue from it?

 

[Demoskinos]

No. It takes talent and time to make mods. It's the same kind of shitty attitude people have with artists expecting them to work for exposure all the time. People gotta get paid. Don't do something you're good at for free.

 

[LelouchZero]

Thanks for all the posts, it's very interesting to hear other people's thoughts!

Also, multiplayer was a feature in GTA since the very first game.

Crap my bad, I should have said 3D GTA. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[jem0208]

One of the stranger outcries I've seen...

 

[Par Score]

Is the hate for paid online justifiable?

The answer to both is yes, because these things have been historically free. Anything which you've had for free for going on 3 decades suddenly costing money is going to attract a justifiable level of anger.

This is all about huge companies noticing that they're not squeezing every last drop of blood from the stone and looking to make a quick buck. There's no altruistic motive here, however hard they try to spin it.

 

[packy34]

And what's wrong with another way to get revenue from it?

This is an extremely capitalist viewpoint on the subject. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not how mods have been handled since the dawn of PC gaming. It has always been more about sharing with the community and less about making money on work. As I said in my post above, this system will only pull in bottom-feeders looking for a quick buck while driving out the people with actual investment in these games.

 

[YoRHa No.2 Type B]

Hahaha. I didn't knew people started wanting money for their mods.

Should've known better.

 

[Kageshinzo]

And what's wrong with another way to get revenue from it?

It's not "another way". You either go through official publisher channels (CC) and the publisher gets a considerable percentage, or you go through the donate/Patreon route and get almost 100% of the cash. You can't do both.

From what I understand, CC is for larger scale mods (to the point of it becoming DLC) and if it's something that cannot be done without the help of the publishers, then that's no problem. But if it's regular mods, then it becomes that much trickier considering that much of the mods out there are built off others, and which were only possible because of trust within the modding scene.

 

[pastrami]

I have no problem with the principle of paid mods, but it always feels a bit skeevy when a large company profits off of the work of people who are not employees or contractors.

 

[Renekton]

Like mentioned, modders who wanted monetary compensation have always been able to do so via PayPal donations (and Patreon, in recent years). And users have always been willing and glad to do so for those modders that they want to support. The issue of being and paid has never been a problem in the modding scene for decades now.

On what basis do we actually declare the money problem "not a problem"? Did we do a census? Do we actually know if mid-tier modders can get decent money from donations?

Gabe thinks it's an issue.

Considering how little Durante got from his donation link despite the excellent work for the PC community, this seems far less reliable than monetary transaction.

They sure can. Donations. Sites like nexusmods have made donation links/popups much more visible recently to help drive more of this.

This is just pointing out one solution without really caring how effective it actually is.

 

[Antiwhippy]

This is an extremely capitalist viewpoint on the subject. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not how mods have been handled since the dawn of PC gaming. It has always been more about sharing with the community and less about making money on work. As I said in my post above, this system will only pull in bottom-feeders looking for a quick buck while driving out the people with actual investment in these games.

And people who want to continue sharing with the community can do so without making people pay for them.

I do design work. I have some stuff that I do for the passion and community, and some stuff that I do to be paid for it. I don't see anything wrong with giving people who put in a lot of work getting the choice to be paid for their work. The user who think "but it used to be freeeeeeeee" strike me as very immature.

It's not "another way". You either go through official publisher channels (CC) and the publisher gets a considerable percentage, or you go through the donate/Patreon route and get almost 100% of the cash. You can't do both.

From what I understand, CC is for larger scale mods (to the point of it becoming DLC) and if it's something that cannot be done without the help of the publishers, then that's no problem. But if it's regular mods, then it becomes that much trickier considering that much of the mods out there are built off others, and which were only possible because of trust within the modding scene.

Then that just means there should be a rigorous vetting system to ensure that people who make their mods payable are giving proper credit or aren't taking work made by others. Not the concept of paying for mods itself,

 

[Kageshinzo]

On what basis do we actually declare the money problem "not a problem"? Did we do a census? Do we actually know if mid-tier modders can get decent money from donations?

It has never been a problem because the modders are not forced to create mods. They do it for the simple love of doing it. Are you saying that for the past three decades now, modders have been silently cursing users for using their mods without paying them anything?

And people who want to continue sharing with the community can do so without making people pay for them.

I do design work. I have some stuff that I do for the passion and community, and some stuff that I do to be paid for it. I don't see anything wrong with giving people who put in a lot of work getting the choice to be paid for their work. The user who think "but it used to be freeeeeeeee" strike me as very immature.

You seem to be under the assumption that modders who want to be compensated can't. That's not true. Never has been. Any modder can ask monetary compensation for their work if they want, like any creator. The modding community has never needed any middleman for this.

 

[Lister]

Only when multimillion/-billion companies are exploiting the modders for their labor.

I think their first attempt at this could have been exactly this. But I think this latest attempt is far from it.

Like mentioned, modders who wanted monetary compensation have always been able to do so via PayPal donations (and Patreon, in recent years). And users have always been willing and glad to do so for those modders that they want to support. The issue of being paid and compensated has never been a problem in the modding scene for decades now. It was a non-issue, but for a cut of the money some reason, publishers are poking their hands on it.

It's been constantly said by top modders that donations never amount to much at all. And that's for top modders, nevermind everyone else. Outside of apparently porn mods, donations don't make much money if any. Most people DO NOT ever hit that donate button.

Additionally, I think it is likely that at some point this will lead to companies trying to exclude or eliminate free mods.

I think the previous model could possibly have led to that. It's a slippery slope argument, but I could see it. However, this latest plan mitigates that.


Bottom line is I'm with Total Buiscuit on this one. You can check out his commentary on this here, if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLmM6pK0wg

These aren't mods. There are enough factors differentiating them that you cna't reallly consider them as so and BECAUSE of that there is no rela danger to the free modding scene, if anything, there willl be more a draw for talented modders to try their hands at it and build up a portfolio.

The differences amount to this being treated as third party paid for DLC. It's that simple.

- You can't monetize something that has already been created. You need submit a proposal along with examples of your work. This mitigates the issues we saw before where free mods suddenly became paid mods. this also means free mods aren't going away. People need examples of their work, and not all proposals will be accepted.

- Projects will be paid for as third party contractors. There is no revennue split as far as I'm aware. The modders are payed what I would expect to be fair game development rates for their work and then Bethesda can do as it wants with the DLC in ti's market place. Precisely as it would if it had a contract with say Obsidian to do the same.

- Projects will be supported to a level that mods would not. This is essentially Bethesda DLC at this point. It needs to work. Mods have no such assurance.

I like this model. I struggle to see a downside to it.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Nothing by this push by corporations seems sincere, because paid mods will need customer support, who will provide this, the mod author? Or the publisher? How is the publisher going to know how every single mod works and its technical details to support? You need a business to do this, and I don't see how mod authors can run a business on mods and sell mods to reach financial deadlines. It just seems its mostly for the benefit for the corporations to take a cut first and foremost. People constantly have issues with getting mods working so this will be a huge issue when you pay for them.

The modding scene is already full of drama, can you imagine what it will be like with paid mods? How exactly are mod dependencies going to be dealt with... ?

It risks affecting the spirit and culture of modding especially due to its connection directly to the corporate element of the publisher. It has always been a great communal effort.

I've donated to mod projects in the past, and I think donating to modders directly is 100% great and all for it. I particularly have donated to projects that have recreated the game engine and source of the game, which still used the original games assets but allowed for total freedom, as well as throwing a few euros to some modders on nexusmods for mods that continually support and make others of.

I don't like the way it's being pushed by corporations to corporatise it.

Corporations want it essentially to be crowdsourced DLC, so they better make sure mods have the support as a product it is just like the game or their in-house DLC would have.

I'm a programmer by profession myself and appreciate the work modders do, I've written mods for other games like the X series, star trek bridge commander, OpenXRay (engine for stalker) etc, and currently I am experimenting with modding City of Abandoned Ships which you have access to with the C language, and I've already begun redoing the trade system to me liking.

I'm still interested in how they exactly plan to deal with mod dependencies.

You will get a lot of defenders of free mods because it's the same principle concerning free and open source software which has tons of supporters of because most mods are also open source by nature.

It will just worse and worse and worse, I won't be surprised it gets to a point where publishers will have you pay for the mod tools and rights to mod games themselves either.

 

[LordRaptor]

They do it for the simple love of doing it.

Some do, some do it as portfolio work to obtain employment, some do it as a learning experience, some do it as a way to make money, some do it for e-fame.

Point is, its up to the person doing that work if and how they want to be compensated, not up to the end user.

 

[packy34]

And people who want to continue sharing with the community can do so without making people pay for them.

I do design work. I have some stuff that I do for the passion and community, and some stuff that I do to be paid for it. I don't see anything wrong with giving people who put in a lot of work getting the choice to be paid for their work. The user who think "but it used to be freeeeeeeee" strike me as very immature.

That's how Bethesda is spinning it right now. If other publishers start going down this path, maybe 10 years from now mods as we know them today don't exist.

This isn't about something being free or not free (users have always had the option to support modders and this is why the scene still exists!). It's about publishers getting their hands on what I consider to be one of the last and purest forms of user interaction with their games and squeezing even more money out of it for themselves.

 

[Sändersson]

Yes.

Modding is work done by fans out of love for a game. They want to improve on something they enjoy and share it with the world. This is how modding has existed for decades in the PC space.

If the "paid mods" cancer spreads, it's not going to be about love of a game anymore. It's going to be about small startups rushing to push out as many skin packs as possible at 99 cents a piece. It's going to be an App Store-esque mess with trash everywhere. Worst of all, it could kill the desire of many talented and dedicated modders already out there working hard to continue making content.

If you like a mod, donate to the modder if possible. Don't allow publishers to take control. Don't buy Bethesda's Fun Bux.

I really, really cant understand why some people just refuse to see this.

 

[Real_Madrid]

I don't think that anyone is against paying money for big fan-made expansions like we've seen with Skyrim. (If they get the support and post launch bug fixes.)
Personally I bought several mods already and had no problem with it (Portal has some of them).

The thing that most people fear of is that we'll get small paid mods, like with the Skyrim debacle where they sold lots of skins. That shouldn't be something you need to pay money for. Some modders deleted their mods on Nexus and then asked money for it on Steam...

 

[packy34]

This is just pointing out one solution without really caring how effective it actually is.

Well, the scene still exists after 30+ years, so... what's broken?

 

[Lister]

It has never been a problem because the modders are not forced to create mods. They do it for the simple love of doing it. Are you saying that for the past three decades now, modders have been silently cursing users for using their mods without paying them anything?

There's always been a desire to get paid. Many modders are doing it for the love but time is money. Many are also doing it to get noticed, get a foot into the biz, or just for practice, to build up a potfolio. Very few people have the spare time to devote to modding. If we can incentivate even more people to give modding a shot I think we should, it benefits the game and the players, and hopefully, at least some fo the modders too.

Bethesda's first try was the wrong way to do that. I think, this is the right way.

Pick and choose from the talent, see if they have DLC ideas that make sense and sound interesting, and pay them to develop them as third party contractors. I think it's an awesome way to work this in without it being disruptive to the free modding ecosystem.

 

[Sändersson]

That's how Bethesda is spinning it right now. If other publishers start going down this path, maybe 10 years from now mods as we know them today don't exist.

This isn't about something being free or not free (users have always had the option to support modders and this is why the scene still exists!). It's about publishers getting their hands on what I consider to be one of the last and purest forms of user interaction with their games and squeezing even more money out of it for themselves.

Ditto.

 

[Hambulance]

What's next, are they gonna start charging for patches?