Support NeoGAF

[Antiwhippy]

That's how Bethesda is spinning it right now. If other publishers start going down this path, maybe 10 years from now mods as we know them today don't exist.

This isn't about something being free or not free (users have always had the option to support modders and this is why the scene still exists!). It's about publishers getting their hands on what I consider to be one of the last and purest forms of user interaction with their games and squeezing even more money out of it for themselves.

Depends on the revenue split really. If they're actually providing a proper infrastructure then yeah there probably should be a split to pay for using that infrastructure. If it's unfair we'll have to see how the market reacts to it.

Hell, valve has been doing it for years now with TF2 and Dota 2.

 

[Basketball]

This is how the shit ball starts don't fucking help them push it.

 

[Khalme]

When Bethesda allowed modding on the consoles, a shit ton of mods were stolen from nexusmods, renamed and reuploaded onto the bethesda network without giving any credits to the original modders.
If you add money to the equation, I don't see how it can end well in the long run.
I love Bethesda but I can't see them putting the effort to curate, track down and reject all sketchy and/or mods.
Especially if it's something like and armours/weapons pack made by stealing mods left and right.
Another thing is, a lot of mods are dependant on scripts extender and/or the unofficial patches. If a mods is built on top of those, should some money be given to the SKSE team ? Or to Arthmoor ?

The nexusmods is far from perfect and there are a lot of low effort shitty mods, but it's still better than an appstore or Steam Greenlight. And I'm afraid the "Creator Club" will become similar to one of those two cesspool.

 

[LordRaptor]

Of course, from an end user point of view, if publishers see potential benefits from an 'authorised mods' marketplace, there is a tangible incentive to provide people with modding tools in the first place, and not use obfuscating filetypes to hide resources or anti-tamper measures in code.

 

[psychowave]

I really don't see why the publisher should get a cut. I already paid for the game. If I go to a tailor because I want to turn my dress into a skirt I don't go back and pay the shop I bought the dress from again.

 

[Hektor]

What's next, are they gonna start charging for patches?

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/19/ --> 2 Million unique Downloads

Paid mods literally would result in Bethesda monetizing patches, patches that arent even made by bethesda themselfs, which is one of the reasons i'm against the idea of them earning proceeds of the transaction

 

[Yohane]

Yes if Bethesta takes a cut.

No if the modders get 100%

 

[Sändersson]

Depends on the revenue split really. If they're actually providing a proper infrastructure then yeah there probably should be a split to pay for using that infrastructure. If it's unfair we'll have to see how the market reacts to it.

Hell, valve has been doing it for years now with TF2 and Dota 2.

99% of the users will have no idea or interest in how the revenue is split. If you sell them mods trough ingame app, they will buy it.

 

[packy34]

Depends on the revenue split really. If they're actually providing a proper infrastructure then yeah there probably should be a split to pay for using that infrastructure. If it's unfair we'll have to see how the market reacts to it.

Hell, valve has been doing it for years now with TF2 and Dota 2.

But there doesn't NEED to be a publisher-supplied/controlled infrastructure! We have the internet. We can download mods from literally anywhere and apply them ourselves.

Valve does it for 2 games and this is the model we should apply to everything?

 

[bonesmccoy]

I don't hate the idea, I just don't think it will work.

People will 'crack' these paid mods almost immediately, harvest and reassemble them, and then release them outside of Bethesda's mod store.

 

[YoRHa No.2 Type B]

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/19/ --> 6 Million Downloads

Paid mods literally would result in Bethesda monetizing patches, patches that arent even made by bethesda themselfs, which is one of the reasons i'm against the idea of them earning proceeds of the transaction

This shit is fantastic.

Lately I was at a restaurant on a mountain. They sold citrus water for 3.50 €. They gave me just a plastic bottle full of citrus water. You could buy that shit for 0.60 € at the store a few metres away. I lost my shit.

Not really related but that was fucked up aswell.

 

[Renekton]

It has never been a problem because the modders are not forced to create mods. They do it for the simple love of doing it. Are you saying that for the past three decades now, modders have been silently cursing users for using their mods without paying them anything?

The bolded is directly DECIDING for them what they should get out of modding. The language here is troubling because "not being forced" = "should be free"

Well, the scene still exists after 30+ years, so... what's broken?

What's broken is they may have to hold a full job and mod on the side. Simply persisting for 30 years doesn't mean the system couldn't be better for people who create content.

 

[Kageshinzo]

There's always been a desire to get paid. Many modders are doing it for the love but time is money. Many are also doing it to get noticed, get a foot into the biz, or just for practice, to build up a potfolio. Very few people have the spare time to devote to modding. If we can incentivate even more people to give modding a shot I think we should, it benefits the game and the players, and hopefully, at least some fo the modders too.

Bethesda's first try was the wrong way to do that. I think, this is the right way.

Pick and choose from the talent, see if they have DLC ideas that make sense and sound interesting, and pay them to develop them as third party contractors. I think it's an awesome way to work this in without it being disruptive to the free modding ecosystem.

Like I said, the CC seems to be for larger scale works that would benefit from the assistance of the publisher, and I'm okay with that as they would be doing so in the capacity of a "business partner" for lack of better term. This means a tighter vetting and quality check. In fact, I don't think of this as a "mod" as it's more like a DLC -- in between your regular mods and straight-up expansion.

What I'm against is their previous attempt at this. That was an unnecessary meddling into something that has been working more or less fine for decades.

 

[Lister]

It seems to me most of you guys have no clue what the new proposal even entails. Why don't you guys read up a bit about it before commenting?

Depends on the revenue split really. If

I don't believe there is revennue split. Again, modders would submit a DLC proposal, Bethesda would either agree to it or not. If they agree, they would be hired as contractors, justa s they would hire any other development company (i.e Obsidian with Vegas). They would release payments for development milestones while the DLC is being made.

When Bethesda allowed modding on the consoles, a shit ton of mods were stolen from nexusmods, renamed and reuploaded onto the bethesda network without giving any credits to the original modders.
If you add money to the equation, I don't see how it can end well in the long run.

I'm not seeing the relevance here. After development, the content would be like any other Behthesda DLC.

I really don't see why the publisher should get a cut.

For the same Reason you presumably paid Bethesda for New Vegas, or Nuka cola World DLC?

I don't hate the idea, I just don't think it will work.

People will 'crack' these paid mods almost immediately, harvest and reassemble them, and then release them outside of Bethesda's mod store.

Like they do with officlal DLC?

I mena, there will always be piracy and self entitled ass holes who think the world owes them so they will take what they want.

But I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Again this will be treated as something akin to official DLC. Supported, and paid for by Bethesda, the modders involved would be third party developers in this case.

 

[packy34]

What's broken is they may have to hold a full job and mod on the side. Simply persisting for 30 years doesn't mean the system couldn't be better for people who create content.

You're implying that modders only mod to make money. They don't. It's a hobby borne out of love. I don't know why everyone who's pro-paid mods keeps ignoring this.

Ask any modder on nexusmods if they work on mods as a job, or if they do it in the hope that they'll make enough money to live. I guarantee 10 out of 10 people you ask will tell you they have a normal job... because this ISN'T a job. Publishers are trying to make it one, though.

Can't you see why that's bad for everyone?

 

[Lister]

Like I said, the CC seems to be for larger scale works that would benefit from the assistance of the publisher, and I'm okay with that as they would be doing so in the capacity of a "business partner" for lack of better term. This means a tighter vetting and quality check. In fact, I don't think of this as a "mod" as it's more like a DLC -- in between your regular mods and straight-up expansion.

What I'm against is their previous attempt at this. That was an unnecessary meddling into something that has been working more or less fine for decades.

100% Agree. But that move is dead in the water now. This is the way they see forward.

 

[Vital Tundra]

The idea is fine, but I don't agree with revenue splits. The dev should not be getting most of the profits. Yeah its their engine and stuff but the content would simply not exist if not for the modder in most cases. Why should the publisher be getting >60% of the profit for content they didn't work on? They didn't put the man hours it took to create it, so they shouldn't get most of the profits, and if the mod uses pre-existing assets, why is it still okay for them to get payed as much when they allowed everyone to use the assets for free in the first place? I know its probably because now your trying to make a profit on Bethesdas assets, but you allowed mods in the first place, and have allowed these creators to accept donations for the content they make for 2 decades. Its the same thing, so why should creators be undercut?

 

[ramparter]

No. You give and receive. No one has to give you anything for free.

 

[Renekton]

You're implying that modders only mod to make money. They don't. It's a hobby borne out of love. I don't know why everyone who's pro-paid mods keeps ignoring this.

Read what you are typing. I'm not deciding/implying anything for them, you are.

Paid-mods is an option they can ignore.

Ask any modder on nexusmods if they work on mods as a job, or if they do it in the hope that they'll make enough money to live. I guarantee 10 out of 10 people you ask will tell you they have a normal job...

Well, this is a very bold claim.

 

[GrantDaNasty]

When Bethesda unveiled the Creators Club, my reaction was "that's perfectly fair, and if I enjoy playing Skyrim but want more content, I would gladly pay $10 for someone's mod that adds 15 new quests and 100 new items". Keep in mind, 5 years ago I would've been staunchly against it, but considering I work a pretty steady job with a decent disposable income now, it isn't that hard for me to afford such things.

End of the day, people put work in when making mods, them being free is not a right, it's a privilege for the end-user that mod-makers hope would contribute not only to the community at large, but subconsciously might help them showcase their work and help court potential employers (if it isn't just a labor of love or passion). People put in work to make MORE content for games people enjoy, why do they not deserve to get paid for it? It's ridiculous.

When Bethesda put in paid mods for Skyrim using Steam Workshop, that was a failed approach and they were not able to introduce it and set the tone accordingly at the time, but again - Why should mod-makers not get paid for making more new content for games? "Because it's a passion-project" "Because I already paid for this game" "They aren't employees of the company making the game so clearly they have no right to be paid for anything".

I'm being an idealist here, we will need to see how the Creators Club shakes out and whether or not mod-makers get a fair deal or if Bethesda takes too large of a cut, but where a few years back I would've been staunchly against it, now I'm welcoming of the idea. I just look at it as "well let the game-creators go on and make new shit, and the people who are passionate about Fallout 4/Skyrim/etc can make new stuff for that game and help the fans of said game extend their experience".

 

[psychowave]

For the same Reason you presumably paid Bethesda for New Vegas, or Nuka cola World DLC?

Bethesda develops fan mods now?

Edit: maybe I should've said dev instead of publisher? English isn't my first language and I admit I get both terms mixed up a lot.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I'm not against modders getting paid for their work. Valve/Bethesda messing with it thats a problem.

 

[Spukc]

I don't think that anyone is against paying money for big fan-made expansions like we've seen with Skyrim. (If they get the support and post launch bug fixes.)
Personally I bought several mods already and had no problem with it (Portal has some of them).

The thing that most people fear of is that we'll get small paid mods, like with the Skyrim debacle where they sold lots of skins. That shouldn't be something you need to pay money for. Some modders deleted their mods on Nexus and then asked money for it on Steam...

HOW DARE THEY ASK MONEY xD

 

[venomenon]

Mod creators are not gamers' slaves, so of course they should be free to charge for their work. It completely blows my mind that apparently some people want to force them to work for free or not at all.

It's a different question if the way Bethesda is handling it is optimal.

 

[Keinning]

Maybe i'll pay for mods when bethesda stop releasing incomplete, barely functional games to be finished by the community

If i have to pay 60 bucks for a game and then 15 for the Unofficial Patch that will make it work and 10 for the mod that restores cut content, then yes i'm going to be pissed about paid mods.

 

[Spukc]

Mod creators are not gamers' slaves, so of course they should be free to charge for their work. It completely blows my mind that apparently some people want to force them to work for free or not at all.

It's a different question if the way Bethesda is handling it is optimal.

thanks knuckles

 

[chugen]

Mod creators are not gamers' slaves, so of course they should be free to charge for their work. It completely blows my mind that apparently some people want to force them to work for free or not at all.

It's a different question if the way Bethesda is handling it is optimal.

mods creators do mods because they want to, nobody is asking them shit. fuck is that slaves bullshit coming from

 

[GrantDaNasty]

I'm not against modders getting paid for their work. Valve/Bethesda messing with it thats a problem.

You're right in so far as there shouldn't be a middle-man taking 20-30% (if not more), but most commerce works through mediation these days. Amazon, Steam, iTunes, PSN/XBL/eShop/GooglePlay.

And it's a problem where individual mod-makers can try to put a price-tag on their content, but unless they have a larger organization and clear policies and a pipeline, it won't happen, not easily anyway. Thus, at the very least if this popularizes the concept that we can crowd-source new content for games and people can get paid for it, I'm in.

mods creators do mods because they want to, nobody is asking them shit. fuck is that slaves bullshit coming from

http://steamed.kotaku.com/some-people-are-pissed-that-skyrims-paid-mods-are-gone-1700837400

 

[Fantastapotamus]

It's something that used to be free and now people are trying to charge you money for.
I mean...of course people aren't happy.
The only good I can see coming from this is more publishers might get encouraged to make their games modable.

mods creators do mods because they want to, nobody is asking them shit. fuck is that slaves bullshit coming from

Don't you sometimes kidnap programmers and force them to develop Skyrim nude mods in your basement? I thought everybody does that

 

[Inkvoterad]

This is Bethesda trying to monetize and exploit one of the last goddamn bastions of gaming not plagued by the garbage-tier capitalist game industry. Bethesda aren't your friends, they're not acting middleman because of some martyr-like goodwill for their "precious" fans. They see a potentially exploitable community. This will hamper creativity, and create an economical barrier in a community that largely managed to avoid that.

Fuck 'em for this. Donate personally to your favourite mod creators if so, but jesus christ don't support this garbage.

 

[nded]

I'm generally in favor of modders having a way to seek compensation for their work, though I think a lot of them will find that the legal ramifications of what they do can get very complicated very quickly. I assume potential candidates for the paid mod scheme will have to prove that their mod contains only original work and all tools or existing works used to make it are properly licensed.

But then again, Bethesda could just not give a shit and open the flood gates App Store style.

 

[SystemBug]

Hahaha. I didn't knew people started wanting money for their mods.

Should've known better.

Some people want to be paid for their work. Making mods is hard work.

 

[Diprosalic]

paid mods are great.

 

[packy34]

Read what you are typing. I'm not deciding/implying anything for them, you are.

By saying they may have to hold down a "full job" and "mod on the side", you imply that modding is a job that they should be compensated for. Sorry, not letting you have this one. As someone who's been involved in several modding communities for years, I do feel like I'm a tad more qualified to speak on what most people do it for.

Paid-mods is an option they can ignore.

No, it isn't. It's not something anyone can ignore. Do you remember what happened immediately after Skyrim paid mods launched? 99 cent skin packs flooded the front pages. This is exactly what paid mods are going to cause - a rush of hastily-created content by people looking to make quick money while driving out the ones who have put in real effort for years. Do you like how the app store looks right now? Because that's what mods are going to look like in a gated, publisher-controlled world.

 

[Inkvoterad]

paid mods are great.

 

[MUnited83]

I don't think that anyone is against paying money for big fan-made expansions like we've seen with Skyrim. (If they get the support and post launch bug fixes.)
Personally I bought several mods already and had no problem with it (Portal has some of them).

The thing that most people fear of is that we'll get small paid mods, like with the Skyrim debacle where they sold lots of skins. That shouldn't be something you need to pay money for. Some modders deleted their mods on Nexus and then asked money for it on Steam...

You realize modeling and texture work is something that can take a lot of work too, yes? Nothing wrong with charging for it. Don't buy them if you think they aren't worth the money. You still have a shitload of people doing them for free too.

mods creators do mods because they want to, nobody is asking them shit. fuck is that slaves bullshit coming from

Explain the shitload of entitled freeloaders that decided to start harassing modders that made their mods paid then.

 

[LordRaptor]

________ aren't your friends

The rallying cry of people who presumably don't work for a living and cannot comprehend that trying to make money isn't inherently evil

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Explain the shitload of entitled freeloaders that decided to start harassing modders that made their mods paid then.

That's pretty easy to explain:
People are idiots.

 

[Blyr]

My concern stems from mods that are built, or require aspects of other mods.

I have downloaded many mods for many games that say, "make sure you go to this page and download this mod, and this mod and this mod", and .. what will happen when all of those mods need to be paid for?

Will people even be allowed to update, modify, and create new and interested mods based on others?

There are also other concerns, like instability. if I pay $5 for a mod and it causes my game to crash constantly, I'm not going to be happy with that. If I'm paying money for it, I expect it to work fully -- with the current modding scene you just find work arounds and tweak things, because you aren't paying for anything and your expectations are set, if we get mods that are released as unstable and buggy as they are currently, there will need to be some form of user protection.

Can you refund mods on steam? Do the current refund rules apply? What if I buy a mod that is incompatible with other mods?

I'm all for the creators being paid for their work, I regularly commission my favorite artists, but if I found out a game I bought is broken, I'm going to want to return it, and have regularly until Steam implemented refunds (before this, I'd wait several months and see if a game had issues/bugs on PC, and primarily bought games physically for consoles)

There are a lot of things that need to be worked out, and I don't think the proper thought and care has been put into this.

Maybe it'll all shake out fine and these concerns will be moot, but as it stands it just seems ill-conceived and an easy way to "cash in" as it stands.

 

[venomenon]

mods creators do mods because they want to, nobody is asking them shit. fuck is that slaves bullshit coming from

I admit the slavery analogy is not perfect.
The point still stands though. They aren't forced to work, that's right, but they are being told what they're allowed to do with the work they created, the alternatives basically being to either release it for free or to not release it at all. I don't get how people can feel like they have the authority to give creators these two options. If anything, the publisher should have this authority if there's a legal basis for it (regarding copyrights), but certainly not random consumers.

 

[Budi]

I don't think so. People put a ton of time into these mods, why shouldn't they be rewarded for it?

The cut that Bethesda or Valve takes...well that's another issue.

Yeah exactly this, I wouldn't had minded if the modder got 50% atleast from the mod sales and Valve/Bethesda split the rest. It would had still been better for the modders than rely on donations, which they very very rarely get from the people who download the mods. I remember Durante sharing some data here one time for the amount of donations compared to downloads. I firmly believe that it mostly boils down to gamers not wanting to pay at all, rather than actually caring who the money goes to. Not in all cases ofcourse, but mostly the people who are against paid mods just don't want to pay. Which is ofcourse understandable, free is free. As long as people get to choose if they want to sell or share mods for free, it's good to me. Steam would had provided the service so cut would had been justified and the modder uses works of others for profit, so cut to publisher is justified. And someone absolutely should put in the work to overlook that nobody is trying to upload and profit from works of others, which was happening with Steam/Bethesda deal.

And to my understanding, selling mods is not allowed without services like the Bethesda created one. So it's not just that all modders want to give away stuff for free. They are required to.

Valve already did great with the hats in TF2, Dota. People creating those items were happy, Valve was happy and consumers were happy, unfortunately something has changed apparently. I haven't really looked into it, but from my understanding they all aren't as pleased anymore. Mainly the creators, which sucks.

Maybe i'll pay for mods when bethesda stop releasing incomplete, barely functional games to be finished by the community

If i have to pay 60 bucks for a game and then 15 for the Unofficial Patch that will make it work and 10 for the mod that restores cut content, then yes i'm going to be pissed about paid mods.

Or better yet, don't buy those Bethesda developed games at 60 bucks when they clearly aren't worth it for you. They are not for me atleast.

 

[packy34]

The rallying cry of people who presumably don't work for a living and cannot comprehend that trying to make money isn't inherently evil

Most people who are against paid mods don't think making money is evil; this is a silly post.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

To hate the concept is a bit ridiculous. What should be hated is poor implementations that don't award content creators fairly or doesn't offer some level of QA for mod support.

 

[Sheytan]

No, if mod creators wants to get paid for their mods they should be able to do so, but i probably have like 200-300+ mods in skyrim so i don't like it.

 

[Monochromaticx]

What's next, are they gonna start charging for patches?

Honestly, I see it happening.

GET THE LATEST PATCH BEFORE EVERYONE ELSE FOR THE LOW PRICE OF 4.99!!

 

[McNum]

I can think of one good example. Long War 2 for XCOM 2.

But that's free, you say? Yes, it is to you and me, but the team behind the original Long War got commissioned to do a sequel by 2K and Firaxis. Thus the mod is free to the end users, and the mod team get paid for their work. Everyone is happy and 2K and Firaxis get to play super-nice guys for PR with how they are totally committed to mods with a stunt like that.

That said, including all but the source code for the .exe file in the Official Modding Tool for XCOM 2 was a pretty big hint of that to begin with.

 

[Keinning]

People getting paid for mods is not a new concept being invented by Bethesda, stop this insane argument. People already got paid for mods before when the community felt the content deserved monetary compensation. You can argue all you want if the compensation was good enough for the quality of the material or if someone could make a living of it if they wanted to (protip - no you can't, speaking from experience), but to pretend games never received quality material to prolong their lives before or that poor modders should be able to profit from their work if they want to and finally they will be able to thanks to Bethesda is absurd. Makes me wonder if the people advocating for paid mods (in the context of the Creation Club) ever made part of the modding community before.

 

[Auto-Reply]

In a way, maybe, I guess the thought process is "What if every game in existance has a system in place that is handling mods like a product?".

Free mods would automatically go extinct, even if the mod creators would want their mod to be free that suddenly would go against the principles of this new system and create problematic situations where there were none before.

I would not have a problem with giving people some bucks for their mods/hard work but I'm not sure that the company behind the game should have a hand in this process. You get money involved you get problems.

 

[sbkodama]

You can already donate if you want, paid here just mostly mean cut for the publisher.

 

[LordRaptor]

to pretend games never received quality material to prolong their lives before or that poor modders should be able to profit from their work if they want to and finally they will be able to

Is anyone actually saying either of these things?