packy34
Member
I'm almost positive a lot of the posters here haven't been involved in any modding communities at all.
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Is the hate for paid mods justifiable?
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
I'm almost positive a lot of the posters here haven't been involved in any modding communities at all.
That is incorrect, I am implying they should be allowed to turn it into a job if they wish. They can of course do it out of love. Both are options. Modders, as human beings, have different motivations to things.
What you kept doing, however, was insist that love is and should be the only motivation.
At what capacity though. Any link to your mods?
You replied to my "Paid-mods is an option they can ignore." with something more tangential which is the user experience.
- By "they" I mean the modders.
- By "options" I mean they can choose to a) continue mod for free (ignore) or b) charge for their work.
Inkvoterad
Member
Lol what is this post. So criticism of crappy practices is just jealousy or what? Are you that dense?
No, hate was never justifiable. It was just cries of people wanting stuff for free.
There were some good arguments raised. But most of them were either hypothetical possible scenarios or that mod creators were not getting paid enough. Latter was pretty much on Valve, as it was the same cut it was paying to workshop creators. Most of the complains about various hypothetical scenarios just seem impossible after reading what bethesda is doing.
There were some good arguments raised. But most of them were either hypothetical possible scenarios or that mod creators were not getting paid enough. Latter was pretty much on Valve, as it was the same cut it was paying to workshop creators. Most of the complains about various hypothetical scenarios just seem impossible after reading what bethesda is doing.
You use a lot of mods I assume, how much have you donated to different modders? Please be honest.
You wouldn't want to work for voluntary payment either I suppose? Working for tips in restaurants and such sucks enough already. If people want modding to be their job, we need Valve/Bethesda or whoever stepping in.
GrantDaNasty
Member
What's crappy about people getting paid for their work?
Feel free to get mad at Bethesda being the middle-man and taking their cut, but keep in mind - The creators club at this time would only apply to Bethesda/Zenimax games, so y'know...it's THEIR games that the mods are created for. This isn't some Amazon/Steam scenario of a 3rd party coming in.
LordRaptor
Member
Seems like most criticisms of businesses making money on GAF comes down to a "[business] is not your friend" post, as though that's some sort of revelatory insight and not some sort of banal truism.
The truth is, X can charge Y for whatever reasons they want to, and you're free to not buy X at Y. That's how business works.
It's ok to ask for money, after all every GOOD new skin, model or mod requires quite a bit of work. Back when I did some Counter-Strike weapon models from scratch it probably took me every evening of a week to model, draw textures and then animate the thing. I did it for the learning experience and just for fun but if I kept doing it, it would have been nice to get some money out of it.
What needs to happen on Bethesda's (or any other paid mod platform) side is careful vetting of what mods get accepted. We don't need mods that are stolen and renamed, we don't need 1000 recolors of existing or stolen assets. If Bethesda wants to take a cut, they better work for their money to keep the quality high. The Google/Apple app store model where they went for quantity over quality is the reason why the app stores are filled with off brand clones and complete shit tier software and the same is true with free mods on Nexus.
What needs to happen on Bethesda's (or any other paid mod platform) side is careful vetting of what mods get accepted. We don't need mods that are stolen and renamed, we don't need 1000 recolors of existing or stolen assets. If Bethesda wants to take a cut, they better work for their money to keep the quality high. The Google/Apple app store model where they went for quantity over quality is the reason why the app stores are filled with off brand clones and complete shit tier software and the same is true with free mods on Nexus.
packy34
Member
And you conveniently leave out the part of that quote where I address both of these points. Again. In case you're somehow missing it, I'll lay it out one more time.
Paid mods - in the way Bethesda tried to and will try to handle it again - encourage sharks to enter the market and flood the storefront with cheap cosmetic packs. We saw it happen in less than 24 hours with Skyrim. Yes, this practice affects current modders who work for free, so no, they can't ignore it.
What it immediately affects: The will to continue working. Seeing Bethesda again try to monetize what is and should be a hobby is disheartening. This is something people who have never modded or talked with modders understand - it's really, truly not about the money.
What it could affect in the long run: The entire modding scene as we know it. If other publishers get on board with this, like I said earlier we could be looking at a total loss of freely-distributable mods in 10-15 years. It's money on the table to these companies and the only way to keep it open is to fight for it.
LordRaptor
Member
Again; you are prescribing motivations onto people and using the No True Scotsman argument, while pretending things like the Make Something Unreal competition never existed.
Yes this is an implementation issue that should be addressed.
But you are still steering away from the core discussion that we started a page back: should modders be allowed to charge for their work (not as donation)? Please answer.
Asking again. At what capacity have you involved in the community? Links to your mods?
Huh, why should it be just a hobby? Why isn't the effort and time modders put in valuable? And if you think that everyone would be only selling mods and not releasing them for free, clearly the modders want it to be more than a hobby then, no?
What I didn't like about the first a attempt to do this is that valve/Bethesda/creators wanting me to pay for something that had zero guarantee that it would work. Bethesda is now properly taking this content and vetting it to make sure it properly integrates itself into the game. That said, the most important mods to me are not content mods, but mods that literally add core features and improve performance. I don't think players should be paying for anything that fixes and improves the game at a core level. Like charging people because someone fixed a memory leak or updating the game to take advantage of more memory than it was originally designed to. Bethesda should fully foot the bill for performance related things.
Inkvoterad
Member
I haven't played vanilla Skyrim since 2012 and my current mod-list is over 200 mods. I've never donated a dime, i also didn't get a form of salary since a year back, and even then i can barely live on it. If i would donate or not if i had a lot of money, i do not know.
I essentially answered this in my last post, but i don't want to see a community i particularly loved for the non-existence of economical aspects be degraded to being controlled and monetized by publisher constraints. I mean yeah sure, you can totally just blame this entire thing on me being poor and building up an industry like this is basically going to lock me and others out of a community we've been able to be part of, so i'm not gonna lie when there is definitely selfish reasons for me to want to keep it like it is.
This is not me saying it's gonna happen, because i think the whole creation club thing is gonna bomb like crazy. But the implications of this even being on the table is something i hate.
And i don't see what relevance Bethesda has to with this either, i own my copy, they can buzz of with trying to further monetize and control aspects of what we post-buy want to do with it.
What i'm trying to say is that i don't want the mod community to be a business in the first place, so i don't see the relevance in explaining what a business is.
Generalpsyduck
Banned
Yes.
I'm not inherently against paid mods but it is something that needs to be done carefully. Steam's typically Valveian implementation of fuck it let someone else figure it out was broken and open to abuse from the second it was launched, there was no attention given to content infringement, mod dependencies, mod quality etc etc.
A properly curated selection of mods that are high quality that you have to pay for is not something I am massively hostile to.
Howver, a few things need to be present for me to be supportive of it, one is that free mods are not marginalised or hidden away or even blocked from being installed in favor of paid mods only.
Another is that, will companies provide a paid mod that does one thing and then allow the existence of a free mod that does a similar thing. If Skyrim got a paid fishing mod and then another mod came along that did fishing would it be allowed to exist or would it be C&Ded? I suspect the latter will slowly become the norm.
A properly curated selection of mods that are high quality that you have to pay for is not something I am massively hostile to.
Howver, a few things need to be present for me to be supportive of it, one is that free mods are not marginalised or hidden away or even blocked from being installed in favor of paid mods only.
Another is that, will companies provide a paid mod that does one thing and then allow the existence of a free mod that does a similar thing. If Skyrim got a paid fishing mod and then another mod came along that did fishing would it be allowed to exist or would it be C&Ded? I suspect the latter will slowly become the norm.
BassForever
Member
My point was more I get why people are upset and they have a right to be mad same as with micro transactions in $60 games, dlc, pay to play online, etc. At the same time I understand economics wins out and it's in the best interest of both modders and game developers to create paid mods since both sides make out more profitable then they do right now with mods being free. I want the same thing for fan translations so that more great games may see localization where fan translators get paid for their hundreds of hours of work. I may have said in the past that mods and fan translation are a "labor of love" that people shouldn't work on unless they're die hard passionate, but that was only because odds are they would never get monetary value for their time invested. Stuff like creators club means these people can now justify turning modding (or fan translating) into a full time job.
Tl;dr, the people who now have to pay for something that was free can be upset, yet I think long term it'll be net positive for high quality modders and obviously it's a win for the corporations getting a cut of mod revenue.
Absolutely nothing wrong with modders asking for money for their creations in principle. However, there are considerable problems with logistics, with many mods being reliant on other mods, for example. There is the issue of plagiarism, which has been demonstrated to be a big problem from when consoles gained mods recently. Lastly, there is the looming spectre of publishers seeking to exploit the modding scene, not just through taking a big cut of all paid mods, but by relying on these mods to fix various issues with their games while they continue to cut their QA and support departments to the bone.
LordRaptor
Member
I mean.... with all due respect, if your concept of "community" is a place where you can take take take as much as you want and never give anything back, then you probably should be worried that things will change in a way that does not favour you.
But I think you should also be aware that your moral high ground is not as elevated as you believe it to be.
the_darkness
Banned
I'm fine with modders being paid for their work.
It's funny that so many of these responses are along the lines of "I'm fine with it in principle but I'm just not happy with x/y/z" when the response on here the second the announcement popped up was "lol paid mods fuck that".
It's funny that so many of these responses are along the lines of "I'm fine with it in principle but I'm just not happy with x/y/z" when the response on here the second the announcement popped up was "lol paid mods fuck that".
Fair enough, I have never donated to modders either. I use XCOM mods a lot. I have paid for community created cosmetics in Dota 2 though. So if modders want money from me, unfortunately being paid mod is the option. And if I was actually rich (don't see that happening), yeah I could share some good will with donations too.
Edit: Publishers taking the cut from paid mods isn't nearly the worst thing they could do. What Take-Two and Rockstar are doing currently is much worse.
UserDoesNotExist
Member
This cannot be emphasized enough: the reason the mod scene took off for Skyrim like it did was because of the game's underlying serious UI flaws that necessitated mods even for casual players, and we already know that publishers will ship broken games to meet deadlines. Giving them a financial incentive to sell you *a goddamn fixed UI* is revolting, and I am continually stunned that there are so many people in the community that are OK with this.
If it's optional or put up by the modders themselves, but not through an overhead system implemented as a marketplace. It changes the expectations of what I as a buyer expect from a mod. Ie that it works all the time, and will do so in the future.
Not sure I agree with this. Elder Scrolls had always had a strong modding community since Morrowind. I'd argue that the modding for Skyrim took off so much because of the workshop, previously installing mods for ES games was very easy but it still took a small amount of knowledge of where to put the files. With the workshop it was literally pushing a button.
I don't doubt that Bethesda see mods as a way of the community fixing their games though instead of them having to patch it though.
And I feel this needs to be said again, if the game requires mods to make it work/playable/interesting/fun whatever. Dont pay that 60 bucks for the game, they don't deserve your money for the product then.
Edit: And for those who haven't made and released mods themselves, you aren't part of the modding community/scene. You are just an user.
Edit: And for those who haven't made and released mods themselves, you aren't part of the modding community/scene. You are just an user.
Fbh
Member
On a grand scale I have no issue with it.
If they want, people are still able to make and release mods for free right?. If they think that all the time and effort they put into the mod is worth some money then good for them.
I wouldn't like to be in charge of the logistics behind all of this though.
What about mods that need other mods? What about all the inevitable claims of plagiarism? What about support for the mods? Will creators that sell their mods be forced to update them if an official patch breaks it ?
I think it will also raise questions regarding ethics at Bethesda. If there's a mod that fixes an obvious issue of the game is it fair for Bethesda to get a cut from a mod that fixes their game? What if they intentionally leave out features or make aspects of the game shitty on order to have modders add/fix it and make money from it ?
If they want, people are still able to make and release mods for free right?. If they think that all the time and effort they put into the mod is worth some money then good for them.
I wouldn't like to be in charge of the logistics behind all of this though.
What about mods that need other mods? What about all the inevitable claims of plagiarism? What about support for the mods? Will creators that sell their mods be forced to update them if an official patch breaks it ?
I think it will also raise questions regarding ethics at Bethesda. If there's a mod that fixes an obvious issue of the game is it fair for Bethesda to get a cut from a mod that fixes their game? What if they intentionally leave out features or make aspects of the game shitty on order to have modders add/fix it and make money from it ?
You need to educate yourself what Creation Club, because its not what you think it is.
Nothing you wrote here is applicable to Bethesda's Creation Club.
#co-signed
Sometimes I'll download a mod and uninstall it 2 minutes later because it doesn't do what I need or want it to do. I'm less likely to purchase a mod simply because of that reason. I've donated to 1 mod creator, which sadly is more than some people have, because their mod was better than I hoped it would be.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
Depends on how companies/people go about it. I don't think it's unreasonable for modders to want some kind of compensation for their work. I haven't bene paying attention to how Bethesda is doing things, but for example; if they were trying to take a sizeable cute, and are taking what used to be big mod packs and are breaking them down piecemeal to make more money, then that's pretty shitty. Same for the fact if they suddenly keep free mods from coming out. Again I don't follow this scene, so if it's being done in a much more reasonable way, then fantastic.
I think it's just plain impossible to have a Creation Club-curated ecosystem and culture of mods with the same level of scope and ambition you can find at NexusMods. There are so, so many problems and complex questions raised apart from what you've already brought up.
I seriously doubt Bethesda would approve any type of mod that relies on using external third party tools for instance. And quite a few do out of necessity. Most often in the form of a patcher script which dynamically integrates the mod into your game tailored to the specifics of your load order. That's the crux of a lot of roadblocks I think, simply the entire way modding Bethesda games work in an extremly modular manner where every individual plugin also needs to account for that they are part of a larger ecosystem and will inevitably cause overlap and conflicts in priority with other mods that edit the same records, and all of the baggage that comes along with that.
Serious modding of TES/Fallout games on the end user side has a pretty high barrier of entry where a lot of tinkering is required from you in order to make things work. That is simply the nature of the engine's modular plugin setup which is both a blessing and a curse. Placing those kinds of expectation on the end user within the realm of paid-for, officially curated content is simply not going to cut it relative to what the consumer expects for their money. It needs to work right out of the box, and with that level of expectation you are drastically limiting the scope of what degree of content will be released on the Creation Club.
HackTheSlash
Member
I didnt read through this whole thread yet at the time of making this post. So i apologize if anything i said was already brought up.
I have no problems with modders charging for mods If thats what they want to do with their work.
What im wondering is, what about a modder who wants people to download their work for free and have everyone experience it? Are they gonna be forced to charge regardless? Cause that would be shitty.
My other thought is, (and admittedly paranoia) say a company like Beth who is renown to release buggy as hell games decided they are done patching and supporting a game, leaving it to modders to fix up from then on. That would mean we would potentially be paying for patches to fix quests/bugs/glitches etc for content we paid for. Which is a scary thought IMO. As i said, thats the extreme case on a paranoid thought, but it is a discussion board.
I have no problems with modders charging for mods If thats what they want to do with their work.
What im wondering is, what about a modder who wants people to download their work for free and have everyone experience it? Are they gonna be forced to charge regardless? Cause that would be shitty.
My other thought is, (and admittedly paranoia) say a company like Beth who is renown to release buggy as hell games decided they are done patching and supporting a game, leaving it to modders to fix up from then on. That would mean we would potentially be paying for patches to fix quests/bugs/glitches etc for content we paid for. Which is a scary thought IMO. As i said, thats the extreme case on a paranoid thought, but it is a discussion board.
Devs have full right to stop people from using their assets. It's just that sometimes devs are kind enough to not do that. Same thing for streaming. I don't think it's smart business decision, mind you, but morally I don't see why I should get angry. If someone just likes to throw his money into the water, it's his own business.
Basically the breakdown of Creation Club is having a platform to contract people to make DLCs.
And existing mods cant be used in the system, its designed for new DLCs/mods.
Person or group of people send application to Bethesda with idea for a mod/DLC, Bethesda accept it. Then they agree about terms of delivery and then Bethesda pays those people for development phases (for example alpha, beta, release). When mod/DLC is finished, Bethesda acquires all the rights to it and starts to sell.
How future support of those will look like? We dont know yet, but its on Bethesda. Will they sign some deal with creators or have their own team its to be determined.
I personally think its great idea.
If any of you are fine with Betheda contracting Obsidian to do some DLC, but are not fine with Creation Club, then you are a hypocrite. Its simple as that, because both are the same thing.
killatopak
Member
absolutely disgusting.
give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
We let microtransaction in as a mistake. We learned our lesson. Don't let paid mods grow.
give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
We let microtransaction in as a mistake. We learned our lesson. Don't let paid mods grow.
The size of the hate-jerk that opposes it no matter the implementation isn't justified, no. Most of it is rooted in people simply not wanting to pay for their mods whatsoever, no matter how good or extensive they are.
Primary issue with the first go at it a couple years ago was the total lack of curation from Bethesda. People ended up stealing mods from others and uploading them as their own with a price tag at the time. What Bethesda have stated so far about their "creation club" isn't quite what it were the first time around.
Primary issue with the first go at it a couple years ago was the total lack of curation from Bethesda. People ended up stealing mods from others and uploading them as their own with a price tag at the time. What Bethesda have stated so far about their "creation club" isn't quite what it were the first time around.
Pantaghana
Member
I like free stuff. I also like mods. I like mods being free because they give my favorite games content and replay value for the sweet price of nothing.
However, I also understand that making mods isn't easy, depending on the project, it can take just as much time and effort as it did to make the original game.
Suggesting that modders should never be compensated for their work is insane.
I don't like paying for stuff that used to be free, but if it means more high quality mods, I'll pay.
However, I also understand that making mods isn't easy, depending on the project, it can take just as much time and effort as it did to make the original game.
Suggesting that modders should never be compensated for their work is insane.
I don't like paying for stuff that used to be free, but if it means more high quality mods, I'll pay.
Reading through the thread it's funny how blinding the hate boner is for Bethesda. Also it's clear that even in a world where Bethesda only wanted paid mods and no free mods (super unrealistic to begin with) there would still be people making free mods and finding a way to distribute them.
Gorilla Shark
Member
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? "No" says the man on Neogaf, "it belongs to the gamers."
Well, I won't deny that paying for mods is something... I never thought would happen. We have had free mods... since what, always? And suddenly, a company wants to put them behind a paying wall. I don't mind that the mod creator gets payment for his/their work. In fact, if I could, I would support them too.
What really irks me is the fact that Bethesda has been looking ways for monetize mods. Mods are a great way for have people buy their games. Gotta admit, if it wasn't because of mods, I wouldn't buy a Bethesda game. Or their DLCs, since many mods need them. But even that isn't enough for them.
In consoles this might work, but on PC, I'm really not seeing it.
What really irks me is the fact that Bethesda has been looking ways for monetize mods. Mods are a great way for have people buy their games. Gotta admit, if it wasn't because of mods, I wouldn't buy a Bethesda game. Or their DLCs, since many mods need them. But even that isn't enough for them.
In consoles this might work, but on PC, I'm really not seeing it.
I H8 Memes
Member
I'm convinced the only reason Bethesda ever made mods available to console gamers was for the long con. Get mods in the hands of the horse armor crowd and now you have a large amount of mod users who dont know what the hell they are talking about to be your megaphone on message boards.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I'm not entirely against it, but I do worry if there comes a time where a mod becomes required for the game to be less broken and it's paid. This is concerning especially for Bethesda games.
As someone who's paid for mods via Patreon, I think I prefer that model to what Bethesda's offering.
I'm not really a fan of publishers having yet another way of further monetizing their full priced games. It's better than microtransactions, that's for certain, but it's also being accomplished by outsourcing to the community to whom they'll likely be paying less and providing fewer benefits than to their own internal developers.
I'm not really a fan of publishers having yet another way of further monetizing their full priced games. It's better than microtransactions, that's for certain, but it's also being accomplished by outsourcing to the community to whom they'll likely be paying less and providing fewer benefits than to their own internal developers.