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Is the Wii phenomenon over?
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Green Biker Dude
Banned
how long has it been since the launch games started being developed? 5 years?Vinci said:
you're telling me that ever since the wii came out, nintendo hasn't had an opportunity to start spending their money to court third parties? what?
it's not like they could only do it before the launch window. the wii kept going strong for a good while after launch.
turnbuckle
Member
Not much I can disagree with herecaptmcblack said:
I'm not moving goal posts. If you want to pretend this generation isn't going to be longer than 6 years (which would mean we'd absolutely be getting a new console next fall) go ahead, and the only console maker that would likely make such a move would be effectively making their current generation a 5 year one.
Sony & MS had intended this to be a longer generation before 2G2D occurred, but basically you're saying precisely what I said and therefore acknowledge I wasn't moving any goal posts.
It's not. If the baseball season ended August 5th the Yankees would be the world champs.
Worldwide, the Wii was fading over a year ago. I'm not discounting the fact that consoles fade over time, but that's why I'm suggesting the Wii phenomenon is over. You sound like you agree.
Again, we are in agreement.
Again, we are in agreement. :lol
Green Biker Dude said:
Okay, then we're starting to work out the timeline. That's all my earlier post was doing, outlining the beginning. So, about when? After the first year? After the second, once it was becoming all too clear that the Wii wasn't a fad? Okay. What developers should they have moneyhatted to get what you think they needed at that point?
Green Biker Dude
Banned
wait, you're trying to put words in my mouth. i never said they shouldn't have done it before the wii came out either. i'm saying they had 5 years to do it. that's plenty of time i'm sureVinci said:
captmcblack
Member
Fuck Nintendo spending their money on third parties.
Even if they did, those third parties wouldn't get the return on sales that they needed because the people that are all like FUCK YEAH HALO CALL OF DUTY MADDEN GEARS OF WAR BRO aren't going to buy a million copies of Darksiders if it looks like a PS2 game compared to the "real" games on the HD twins. They already weren't buying the ports of the same games on the Wii anyway.
Third parties won't come for that moneyhat if they don't have an even shot to sell - and the Wii hardware doesn't afford them that shot. Honestly, Nintendo is lucky to have received what little 3rd party support they got, considering it was Nintendo's cost undercutting that beat and bloodied everyone into financial near-death this gen :lol
Even if they did, those third parties wouldn't get the return on sales that they needed because the people that are all like FUCK YEAH HALO CALL OF DUTY MADDEN GEARS OF WAR BRO aren't going to buy a million copies of Darksiders if it looks like a PS2 game compared to the "real" games on the HD twins. They already weren't buying the ports of the same games on the Wii anyway.
Third parties won't come for that moneyhat if they don't have an even shot to sell - and the Wii hardware doesn't afford them that shot. Honestly, Nintendo is lucky to have received what little 3rd party support they got, considering it was Nintendo's cost undercutting that beat and bloodied everyone into financial near-death this gen :lol
How much money would take for Nintendo to make the next Ass Creed Wii exclusive? 100+ million? And I'm sure that stuff like MH3 and Goldeneye are result of Nintendo lobbing third parties. And those games will sell more than Vanquish ever will. In this industry there's no longer room for middling franchises, like what the Wii ever got, at best. Ubisoft shares just dropped 20% because their recent not-Assassins-Creed HD games failed to meet middling expectations.
Green Biker Dude said:
You mean, given the scenario I outlined at the beginning of this generation, you think Nintendo should've offered enough money to 3rd parties to off-set MS's warchest and influence, Sony's deserved goodwill and long history of support and success, and what everyone perceived to be the principle facet of this generation - HD development?
When they didn't even know that their system would be successful?
Green Biker Dude
Banned
i already said if i knew when/how they should've approached third parties i would be working in the industry instead of posting my opinions on neogaf. all i know is that sony and microsoft can do itVinci said:
Nintendo has $8.3 Billion in just cash though, they have more raw cash then even Microsoft has on hand at the moment (They have $5.5 Billion), and Microsoft, despite being in dozens of industries, only has 6x as much assists as a company that just makes video games and some cards on the side.balladofwindfishes said:
So I don't think you can argue Nintendo doesn't have the cash.
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
Nintendo doesn't want to make a business model out of subsidising developers to make games for their platform or provide exclusive content. That's what the other console manufacturers did, and , in addition to losing oodles of money doing so, they fucked over potential market segments in the process. You think all those moneyhats Microsoft put out for all those exclusive jrpgs benefited developers, consumers, or Microsoft in japan? It hurt the console market for those games in japan severely, which probably explains why so many of them show up on the DS now.
Green Biker Dude
Banned
a lot of those moneyhatted microsoft jrpgs were awful though. eternal sonata? what about that one with the diner dance? i can't even remember the name. there was another awful one from square enix too. while the xbox dudebro audience can be blamed for poor sales, i think the games being awful and not selling systems has more to do with it. developers who make bad games can't expect to profit now, can they?Gram Negative Cocci said:
the only ones people seem to like are blue dragon and lost odyssey, both of which are mediocre compared to the best jrpgs out there, or even just the good ps2 jrpgs. i don't think it's fair to blame the lack of ds jrpgs on it either, at least i can't see how one is related to the other.
you do have a point about microsoft harming the industry more than helping it (imo), but i think this whole console generation has sucked so
Green Biker Dude said:
And what I'm pointing out is that MS and Sony were in very strong positions to do so at the beginning of this generation whereas Nintendo was in the worst possible position. That's all I'm saying - that often people criticize Nintendo for this without really taking into account the situation they were in at the beginning of this generation and how that beginning has led to things being the way they are now. This was inevitable, is what I'm saying. Now, if you'd like to argue that Nintendo should have invested money and offered a great deal of support to smaller 3rd parties - for example, CING - that were actually trying to respect the platform and bring out quality content for it, then I would agree with you.
But if you're suggesting that Nintendo should have invested huge, ungodly sums of money into bribing developers to work on a system that they are not uniquely skilled in developing for, are not prepared to develop for from a structural standpoint, have no investment in developing for, and have options more in tune with their ideas and interests, then I'm going to say that you are being a bit unrealistic.
Yes, Nintendo could've done several things differently than what they did - and there are areas in which they dearly need to improve, like lessening restrictions on the manufacturing of 3rd party titles and supporting developers with an interest in working with them - but I don't think what you're suggesting is something they should've done.
captmcblack
Member
It just isn't smart business to pay assloads of money for games that aren't guaranteed to recoup on the investment, especially when these third parties are not exactly loyal.
If Nintendo paid Capcom $100M to make RE5 exclusive, and only got 1.5M sales out of that, would they have made back their $100M? And would that mean that Capcom wouldn't go and make RE5 Gold on the HD twins, or RE5 Portable on the PSP, or RE Online using the RE5 engine on some other platform?
The best exclusivity comes from the franchises Nintnedo makes themselves. Third parties have to want to try to make games on Nintendo's consoles. It's stupid to think that they can't compete; I mean, how many real sports sims are on Wii? Or real racing games like Gran Turismo or Forza? Shit, even games like PGR or Burnout or Ridge Racer don't exist there. The only real platforming games in town are Mario and Sonic. The only FPSes are whatever Activision decides to port over at their discretion, and the Conduit. And are there even any third-person action games except No More Heroes? I mean...there is plenty of room to compete.
But that's got to come when Nintendo's HW can support the kind of games that their competitors can. Only then can Nintendo say "hey, we've got the whole market. You can't ignore our userbase".
If Nintendo paid Capcom $100M to make RE5 exclusive, and only got 1.5M sales out of that, would they have made back their $100M? And would that mean that Capcom wouldn't go and make RE5 Gold on the HD twins, or RE5 Portable on the PSP, or RE Online using the RE5 engine on some other platform?
The best exclusivity comes from the franchises Nintnedo makes themselves. Third parties have to want to try to make games on Nintendo's consoles. It's stupid to think that they can't compete; I mean, how many real sports sims are on Wii? Or real racing games like Gran Turismo or Forza? Shit, even games like PGR or Burnout or Ridge Racer don't exist there. The only real platforming games in town are Mario and Sonic. The only FPSes are whatever Activision decides to port over at their discretion, and the Conduit. And are there even any third-person action games except No More Heroes? I mean...there is plenty of room to compete.
But that's got to come when Nintendo's HW can support the kind of games that their competitors can. Only then can Nintendo say "hey, we've got the whole market. You can't ignore our userbase".
FlashbladeGAF
Member
http://kotaku.com/5692114/this-woman-is-the-nintendo-wii-killer
There are even more cases if you click on the link
There are even more cases if you click on the link
Ninja Moomin
Banned
captmcblack said:
I think when Nintendo do release an HD console and developers can integrate it cheaply into their existing HD tool chain Nintendo will clean up on third party software...
captmcblack
Member
Sadist said:DUDE!
If the console did something right, it's bringing back the platform genre. A Boy and his Blob, Klonoa, de Blob, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Kirby's Epic Yarn.
They brought back the genre, but nobody is really trying to sell new games in it except Nintendo. Look at all the games you listed.
Of those games, Klonoa, de Blob and A Boy and His Blob are third party games...and Klonoa is a port/quasi-remake of the original PS1 game. de Blob was cool, though; I hope it sold well. A Boy and His Blob in 2008/09/10 is like remaking Air Fortress now - irrelevant.
You know what would've been more than irrelevant? If Konami put that Rocket Knight game they made for XBLA and/or PSN on the Wii. It'd have been even more relevant if third parties tried to make some brand-new, non-remake platformers with characters that could plausibly be relevant in this decade and put them on the Wii.
Neon_Icarus
Member
I just hope the Wii will be alive enough next year for NOA/NOE to consider releasing Xenoblade and Last Story here.
...
Oh, well, at least I can try to play them in Japanese...
...
Oh, well, at least I can try to play them in Japanese...
cosmicblizzard
Banned
FlashbladeGAF said:
There are even more cases if you click on the link
I'm more interested in that other stuff she caused than the death of the Wii. Damn cursed people.
FlashbladeGAF said:http://kotaku.com/5692114/this-woman-is-the-nintendo-wii-killer
There are even more cases if you click on the link
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Look it up.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Too easy for Wii jokes.FlashbladeGAF said:http://kotaku.com/5692114/this-woman-is-the-nintendo-wii-killer
There are even more cases if you click on the link
captmcblack
Member
If she causes things to die, I want her to kill me.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Whether or not the phenomenon is over, the Wii's impact on the gaming industry is substantial. It's like when the best athlete in the world ages and is supplanted as the best: all things rise and fall, but that doesn't diminish his/her accomplishments.
De Blob actually sold 700k after a few months. The other two might be remakes, but irrelevant? I disagree. They are actual good games, which makes them relevant.captmcblack said:
They could, but they didn't. That's the point of naming the other ones; they are actually available on Wii.captmcblack said:
I'm bummed that we're going to literally make it through the entire generation without seeing an honest to god attempt at a sandbox game on the Wii. Before this generation if you'd told me that we'd see a market leader without a sandbox game on it I would have laughed until your head exploded. Godfather gave me false hope!
But yeah, Wii honeymoon is over. This generation has been great though, taught me quite a lot about the video game industry. Burn baby burn!
But yeah, Wii honeymoon is over. This generation has been great though, taught me quite a lot about the video game industry. Burn baby burn!
Ninja Moomin
Banned
pvpness said:
Why wpuld you want that?
Only a third party would make it and they'd half-ass it to the point that it would be worse than most PS2 efforts...
That said - a borderlands clone for wii would be AWESOME... and even the graphical style could translate well, look at red steel 2!
I want a sandbox game that uses motion controllers akin to The Godfather BH. I of course would not want a half assed effort by some third party.NinjaFusion said:
On the up for me personally, I'll just snag a motion-enabled sandbox game for Move whenever one inevitably hits. That doesn't lessen my shock that we haven't seen a single honest attempt at one for the market leader however.
GoldenEye 007
Member
I think it was a joke.... And I'm pretty sure you could have just written that in English...gblues said:
evilromero
Member
Wasn't Bully released on the Wii? That's one of my all-time favorite sandbox games.
GaimeGuy said:
This was an area where 3rd parties showed just how out of touch they were. They could have made a killing porting some of their top teir PS2 games to the Wii and it wouldnt require much of a team.
The Wii has some nice holiday bundles coming out at various stores. I expect the usual Holiday bump to happen though how big is hard to guess. Last year they broke records though I dont expect any thing like that this year,
Walmart for black friday has the new red system with Epic Mickey,NSMBW,Wii Sports and an extra controller and nunchuck for 249. Lots of goodies to be had
ShockingAlberto
Member
I am fairly sure I agreed with your assessment that it is more damaging to subsidized third parties at one point in my life, but I no longer think so. Now, this is the business, and Nintendo can't keep playing by its own rules.Gram Negative Cocci said:
They made a ton of money in the last five years by doing that, yeah. But it looks like that gravy train is slowing down because they couldn't keep a library going just off their own output.
If Sony and Microsoft are willing to do these things, Nintendo either has to do them as well, or people have to stop wondering why Nintendo systems don't get third party games. We have entered a phase of the industry where public palm greasing isn't just expected, it's encouraged.
And it's not like Nintendo has never done this. They paid for an exclusive mainline, 3D Tales game and paid for the localization and marketing. That would be exceptional if it weren't like Sony and Microsoft also do that all the time.
Yes. I had it and had played through it previously on the PS2 but figured it was worth it again. I enjoyed it on the Wii but it didn't really satisfy my crime-simulator sandbox itch. I should have been more specific I guess.evilromero said:
I'm split on this particular issue. If I were a game dev I'm sure I would love to have some other company at my back protecting me through finance but as a consumer I can't help but think that companies should stand on their own. If I make a game that is broken, or generally bad but is backed by another much larger company then when the market decides my game is garbage and don't buy it... it doesn't matter to me. I'm already on to making my next crappy game.ShockingAlberto said:
Obviously an extreme as we all know that a string of bad games will destroy any dev but I hate watching a huge hype crap game release next to a under the radar small game and absolutely destroy it sales wise or even just fog the marketplace enough to cover the small game entirely. Makin the small dev shutter or recoil to less risk while big crap dev plods along secure in their big daddy backers arms.
Meh, if publishers aren't able to fund the development of their own products, maybe they should find a different industry where they feel they are able to operate?ShockingAlberto said:
Or theycould just all get swallowed up by larger companies, I suppose....
ShockingAlberto
Member
Sure, in a vacuum, that makes perfect sense.GaimeGuy said:
But Nintendo's competitors do it. Nintendo is the only one who doesn't do it. They can continue not to do it, but at that point, they're in a car race with a bicycle.
Your typical "core" gamer hates Nintendo and most definitely isn't going to buy a Wii for these games if they haven't in years past.Why For? said:
Then there are the "casuals" which supposedly aren't interested in "core" experiences on the Wii.
Which leaves you with the Nintendo faithful... and gamecube level sales.
captmcblack
Member
What it would cost Nintendo to do that for the franchises that would make people pay attention is far too much for it to be worth it to Nintendo.
What is it going to cost Nintendo to buy exclusivity for Call of Duty? For Prince of Persia? For Final Fantasy? For Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden even? For Assassin's Creed, or Gears of War? For Grand Theft Auto? Splinter Cell? What would it cost them to buy derivatives of those games (Medal of Honor? Bayonetta?) What would it cost them to buy exclusivity for second-tier games, like a Darksiders or something? Vanquish?
The best they can do is spinoffs, and they can't get the biggest/best ones because the userbase knows that okie-doke. Crystal Chronicles? Fuck that shit. How about a mainline, full-effort FF game? DQ Swords? Fuck that shit.
Shit, they can't even pay for exclusivity where there isn't some analog of their game that comes out on another console. That exclusive Monster Hunter 3? There's a PSP version coming. That exclusive No More Heroes? Shit's coming out on PS3 and 360. NBA Jam didn't even make it out of the door as the exclusive it was planned to be. I wouldn't be surprised if Epic Mickey finds its way out of the Wii walled garden if it becomes a big hit too...or even if it doesn't.
There's no value in it for them, especially since it's not a guaranteed omegaseller. You might even find that these games lose their oomph on a different machine; maybe the Gears faithful wouldn't be so faithful if they had to play GoW3 exclusively on a Wii with lesser graphics and "crazy" motion controls.
Maybe next console, they can crack the vault open and pay big money for games that are guaranteed to not exist in any form on other systems...but it's too much of a crapshoot.
What is it going to cost Nintendo to buy exclusivity for Call of Duty? For Prince of Persia? For Final Fantasy? For Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden even? For Assassin's Creed, or Gears of War? For Grand Theft Auto? Splinter Cell? What would it cost them to buy derivatives of those games (Medal of Honor? Bayonetta?) What would it cost them to buy exclusivity for second-tier games, like a Darksiders or something? Vanquish?
The best they can do is spinoffs, and they can't get the biggest/best ones because the userbase knows that okie-doke. Crystal Chronicles? Fuck that shit. How about a mainline, full-effort FF game? DQ Swords? Fuck that shit.
Shit, they can't even pay for exclusivity where there isn't some analog of their game that comes out on another console. That exclusive Monster Hunter 3? There's a PSP version coming. That exclusive No More Heroes? Shit's coming out on PS3 and 360. NBA Jam didn't even make it out of the door as the exclusive it was planned to be. I wouldn't be surprised if Epic Mickey finds its way out of the Wii walled garden if it becomes a big hit too...or even if it doesn't.
There's no value in it for them, especially since it's not a guaranteed omegaseller. You might even find that these games lose their oomph on a different machine; maybe the Gears faithful wouldn't be so faithful if they had to play GoW3 exclusively on a Wii with lesser graphics and "crazy" motion controls.
Maybe next console, they can crack the vault open and pay big money for games that are guaranteed to not exist in any form on other systems...but it's too much of a crapshoot.
pvpness said:
start_anecdote
I'm far from Nintendo faithful, but I buy a Nintendo console every gen since the 64 simply for the Nintendo 1st party core titles.
/end anecdote
Maybe Nintendo's strategy was to get the masses in and then turn them into hardcore gamers? Sony did it with the PS2, kinda.
CadetMahoney
Member
I'm guessing the wii will beat the PS2 when all is said and done.NinjaFusion said:
ShockingAlberto said:
Depends on which side of the equation blinks first, really, doesn't it? I mean, if the 'industry' continues down an unsustainable path and Nintendo continues producing hit hardware and reap the benefits solely on its own, don't you think Nintendo is going to evolve to fill in the gaps in its own library? They're the only console company that has existed this long and remained this profitable.