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Is there no market for "mature" american cartoons?
- Thread starter KimiNewt
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Archer is what you want OP. Archer.
FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
but there's literally nothing else. If you get rid of the comedy anime airing each season, you're still left with quite a few dramas and darker, adult shows. Still way more that Western animation has to offer.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Well, you're probably right about the budget thing, but the budget for anime is about as shoestring as it gets. I don't know how much a TV series in Japan costs, but I know a lot of Toku and Sentai series are cheap. But then again they don't require a HBO level budget.
I remember this being on in primetime on what is now CW in 1998
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_America
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
The fact that most if not all animation outside big studio features is outsourced outside of the US is important. Too much of a hassle for some when you can't make it in house because US labor is too expensive.
You can do a lot of things in animated fight scenes that would look super awkward with the budget of live action TV shows. A superman cartoon that has him flying around busting through buildings wouldn't work as well in a live action format.
Its a kids show at its core, but with character development thats better than most TV shows period. As much as I love the show, I wouldn't say its adult oriented exactly. Its welcoming to all ages due to its quality, but its still very cutesy and lighthearted (until it gets super heavy,lol)
Black-Wind
Member
That's the wrong way of looking at it IMO.
Can't really say people don't wanna watch something if they're never given it.
Kotetsu534
Member
I remembering bringing up Grave of the Fireflies as an example of a "serious" animation that was thematically and artisitically powerful to a couple of big time film buffs at my uni. They watched it and agreed, but questioned me as to why the story wasn't made live action, as if the subject matter, by virtue of being serious, would be, ipso facto, better treated in that way. I wonder if that perception isn't widespread - animation is for children's productions and crass comedies; if you're making serious drama, suggest actors and then we'll talk.
Some of the acceptance of animated works comes from the cultural background. Japan, always had a deep culture of animation and drawings.
After the Second World War, live action was insanely expensive compared to animation, which was relatively cheap.
At the same time, motion picture had it's boom in the US, relegating animation to a more kid friendly audience.
Of course the above is highly simplified, but it is a complex cultural difference that isn't easy to change.
The last "adult" western animation I saw in theaters was Titan A.E. Which did extremely poorly and closed down Fox Animation studios. Other attempts at "Adult" animation similarly didn't do so well at the box office, so I can see why the bigger companies wouldn't want to invest highly in something that people clearly didn't want to see.
After the Second World War, live action was insanely expensive compared to animation, which was relatively cheap.
At the same time, motion picture had it's boom in the US, relegating animation to a more kid friendly audience.
Of course the above is highly simplified, but it is a complex cultural difference that isn't easy to change.
The last "adult" western animation I saw in theaters was Titan A.E. Which did extremely poorly and closed down Fox Animation studios. Other attempts at "Adult" animation similarly didn't do so well at the box office, so I can see why the bigger companies wouldn't want to invest highly in something that people clearly didn't want to see.
I guarantee some live action shows get a bigger budget than most animated shows, merch or no merch. The fact is, most American distributors/networks/studios, not to mention audiences, just don't see serial 2-D animation as an adult art form and refuse to produce it or watch it, respectively.
Another good point. Animation is time-consuming/expensive to do inhouse. Still, if there was a demand or more people were more willing to make it, there'd be more of it. The only reason people expect cartoons to sell toys and not primetime shows is because that's just the traditional model. Just think, we could get awesome serious American cartoons in the vein of Cowboy Bebop without this mindset. I wonder if most of it would still be produced by overseas studios, though, because actors and shooting times aren't involved and you'd save money that could be spent on advertising the show or something.
RockTurtle
Member
such a good show.
and probably the last "mature" cartoon on public access television. everything afterwards was either a comedy, aimed to sell toys, or in premium channels only.
I'm a huge fan of animation, same as you OP and this question has bugged me for a very long while as well. Heck I even made a thread similar to this a while back. Since then I've though about it and I believe I have part of an answer.
Really it all comes down to money. Animation is crazy expensive, as a single scene that lasts only minutes can take hours or even days to draw. Thus Animation studios need to make as much money out of their production as possible. To do that, they aim for all audiences. The only people who could possibly make mature cartoons are those who are not interested in making an explicit profit, and are instead interested in bringing people to their service. It's why I've always said that HBO, Netflix, Hulu, etc will be the first to do it. Heck, HBO has already made the most mature TV animation in America with Spawn.
The second reason is that people believe that "cartoons are for kids". This has been a problem for a long time. Back before the 1930's there were cartoons made for adults. Well at least as much as there could be in the 1920's. Betty Boop herself was riddled with sexual innuendo and people messing with authority. Unfortunately the Hayes code changed all of that. Cartoons since have been viewed as for children only, and American cartoons have never recovered.
We have made some progress. Cartoons such as Ren and Stimpy and the Simpsons proved that cartoons could be made for more mature audiences. Unfortunately, production companies got the wrong idea. Instead of understanding that cartoons could be made for adults if done correctly, they assumed that anything with
mature humor would sell, so a whole bunch of other very similar shows have appeared. Furthermore, when Anime came to America in the 80's, production companies screwed up yet again. Instead of understanding why anime was popular, such as the more mature themes and a unique art style, they just assumed it was the way it was. Dozens of dubbing companies came along, yet not a single production company which tried to replicate the style or themes.
To be entirely fair, I am only talking about popular American animation. Independent animators have been making mature works for years, and a few of them such as Ralph Bakshi and more recently Don Hertzfeldt, have been received popular releases. Shows such as Avatar, The Legend of Korra, and the Boondocks, have been tackling mature themes, even if it is under the guise of being a children show/a humorous show. We're getting better, but we still have a long way to go.
If you want a way to increase the speed at which we will start to see mature animations in America, there is nothing better to do than to vote whit your wallet. Go buy Batman: TAS, go get Spawn: The Animation, or Don Hertzfeldt's volumes of animation. Show producers that you do care about mature themes in your animation, so they can show you that they understand by making them.
Really it all comes down to money. Animation is crazy expensive, as a single scene that lasts only minutes can take hours or even days to draw. Thus Animation studios need to make as much money out of their production as possible. To do that, they aim for all audiences. The only people who could possibly make mature cartoons are those who are not interested in making an explicit profit, and are instead interested in bringing people to their service. It's why I've always said that HBO, Netflix, Hulu, etc will be the first to do it. Heck, HBO has already made the most mature TV animation in America with Spawn.
The second reason is that people believe that "cartoons are for kids". This has been a problem for a long time. Back before the 1930's there were cartoons made for adults. Well at least as much as there could be in the 1920's. Betty Boop herself was riddled with sexual innuendo and people messing with authority. Unfortunately the Hayes code changed all of that. Cartoons since have been viewed as for children only, and American cartoons have never recovered.
We have made some progress. Cartoons such as Ren and Stimpy and the Simpsons proved that cartoons could be made for more mature audiences. Unfortunately, production companies got the wrong idea. Instead of understanding that cartoons could be made for adults if done correctly, they assumed that anything with
im
To be entirely fair, I am only talking about popular American animation. Independent animators have been making mature works for years, and a few of them such as Ralph Bakshi and more recently Don Hertzfeldt, have been received popular releases. Shows such as Avatar, The Legend of Korra, and the Boondocks, have been tackling mature themes, even if it is under the guise of being a children show/a humorous show. We're getting better, but we still have a long way to go.
If you want a way to increase the speed at which we will start to see mature animations in America, there is nothing better to do than to vote whit your wallet. Go buy Batman: TAS, go get Spawn: The Animation, or Don Hertzfeldt's volumes of animation. Show producers that you do care about mature themes in your animation, so they can show you that they understand by making them.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
The the type of environment in which shows that aren't crude comedies or innocuous shows for all ages can succeed doesn't exist in North America.
You pretty much have to go outside of the US if you want things like that.
I remember comparing NA stuff and anime at a young age and thinking that in 10 years or so they would catch up and produce shows with the same variety but it never happened.
The necessary environment and audience to sustain and curate that kind of content just never developed. There's a lot of reasons why I'm sure some of the more informed people can dig deep into North America's animation history and the number of problems it faced.
You pretty much have to go outside of the US if you want things like that.
I remember comparing NA stuff and anime at a young age and thinking that in 10 years or so they would catch up and produce shows with the same variety but it never happened.
The necessary environment and audience to sustain and curate that kind of content just never developed. There's a lot of reasons why I'm sure some of the more informed people can dig deep into North America's animation history and the number of problems it faced.
KidGalactus
Member
There is a market, it's just relatively small.
Too small for investors to expect a crazy return anyway.
Much cheaper to bring over anime series to sate that (relatively small) demand.
Too small for investors to expect a crazy return anyway.
Much cheaper to bring over anime series to sate that (relatively small) demand.
I hate that it be like this.
But it do.
But it do.
Chezzymann
Member
Steven Universe doesn't really fall into this category as its clearly aimed mostly at kids but in my opinion its the flagship series in a new 'genre' of cartoons (others being Adventure Time and Gravity Falls) that utilize the normal comedic format and integrate a story and character development into it by throwing bits and pieces across a large span of episodes. As a result it can easily be enjoyed and appreciated by adults (if you get past the first 10 or so episodes) and its characters are just as complex and interesting as a lot of shows aimed at adults. Here's a great character moment between two main characters that I think is pretty damn mature, despite the show being primarily comedy based. Spoilers obviously, and you'll lose 90% of the impact by watching this if you haven't seen the rest of the show.
VIDEO- spoilers
VIDEO- spoilers
Cyber Caesar
Member
Tron Uprising, I think it was too honest a depiction of the establishment so it got canceled.
Wolf Dawgz
Member
As much as I like Bakshi's short subject work, he wanted to be the face of adult animation in the 70s and I don't think his "mature" feature animation pushed the medium forward in any real way, except in cultivating talent. He always had a good eye, especially for background artists. I wonder if this "mature" distinction is (or was) as widespread elsewhere in the world.
i suppose surrealism for surrealism's sake hasn't been in vogue since the early 30s, which is an avenue that animation excels at.
i suppose surrealism for surrealism's sake hasn't been in vogue since the early 30s, which is an avenue that animation excels at.
Messofanego
Banned
You should probably have watched Moral Orel. It's amazing, one of the best TV series ever made, animation or live-action. First two seasons were satires about American religious fervour and rhetoric, the American dream, and family. Last third season is like evangelion and paranoia agent levels of mindfuckery where nearly every character in the town's perspective is given and you start really caring about them, and it's an emotionally crushing experience. I don't think you can get any darker comedy.
The people behind Moral Orel are now working on Charlie Kaufman's next movie Anomalisa.
The people behind Moral Orel are now working on Charlie Kaufman's next movie Anomalisa.
Wing Commander Academy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander_Academy
The Pirates of Dark Water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirates_of_Dark_Water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander_Academy
The Pirates of Dark Water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirates_of_Dark_Water
Choppasmith
Member
Tron Uprising, I think it was too honest a depiction of the establishment so it got canceled.
Really good example. I remember thinking that they COULD have put this on Network Primetime if they wanted to. It's really no different than the likes of Agents of SHIELD, but I think they got cold feet and reluctant just because it was animated.
EDIT: smh at people misinterpreting OP's definition of "mature".
Archer!
Also there are a few good Canadian ones you might enjoy:
Fugget About it:
What happens when a Mafia family has to hide in Vagina er I mean Regina Canada? Comedy. Nudity, swearing, killing, blood. Nudity is censored. All episodes on youtube I believe via their channel.
The Dating Guy:
What does a group of young friends want? Sex, money, sex, fun and sex. Plus more sex. There is nudity.
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